Atama's Removal - Where's the replacment????

Sisuwolf·Nov 12, 2014·7 votes·2,197 views

Atama's is one of only three items with Crit but no AS. With removal of Atama's there will only be two left: IE and Executioner's Calling.

Executioner's Calling only offers 25 AD, 20% Crit, an extremely situational passive, and is not slot efficient IMO.

That leaves only 1 item for champions that want Crit but don't want to spend money on wasted AS stats.

If you have to remove Atama's can we get some other crit item w/o AS?

In a game that is based on situational buys and builds that must be reactive to who you are playing against, why are you pigeonholing champions that want crit but AS would be wasted stats, into an every game, must buy IE?

If you must remove Atama's, buff/completely change Executioner's Calling, or give us a new crit item, NO AS.

Reasonable?

EDIT:

I'd love a 50 armor 50 AD item. I don't get why AD and armor have no crossover item-wise aside from Atma's (which is going bye bye).

Another very good point made by AtheosisX. This is one of the few AD/Def items. With AP/Def items being so common and efficient seems odd to be removing one of the few AD/Def items. Maybe Atama's could be split into two items, one that keeps some form of it's AD scaling passive and Crit, and a seperate item that is AD/Armor. IDK Just ideas.

62 Comments

AtheosisXNov 12, 20148 votes

I'd love a 50 armor 50 AD item. I don't get why AD and armor have no crossover item-wise aside from Atma's (which is going bye bye).

SisuwolfNov 12, 20143 votes

Agreed. Especially when AP/Def items are all over the place, and standard, extremely slot efficient items, bought by anyone and everyone who uses AP.

Lt CuddlesNov 12, 20141 votes

item 3174 item 3001 item 3151 item 3027 item 3116 item 3157 item 3170 item 3056 item 3050 item 3025 item 3137 item 3022 item 3139 item 3156 item 3091 , but only two health and damage items, (And one is getting removed...) and no armor and damage items at this point? Despite AP-scaling anything getting so many health, armor, magic resist, and AP options? Absolutely livid. Rito why...

Dar RaksadaNov 12, 20142 votes

About half the items in the list are either ad+def or as+def (wit's end is not an ap item, it gives attack speed that does absolutely nothing for most mages (kayle/diana/teemo are exceptions) no ability power but some magic resist/magic damage on hit. It's more of a bruiser item. mercurial scimitar/dervish blade/ MoM, starks, mallet are all ad/def. Most defense items seem to be geared against mages as well (though I'm all for more offense/defense items as long as they're balanced, atmogs season was overdone) and if you're going to count liandries/grail as def items count trinity force too (which, while it gives ap too is not an ap item) and you merged maps.

The reason more ap/def items exist is tanks traditionally scaling with ap.

Lt CuddlesNov 12, 20143 votes

All fair points, but is riot so afraid repeating S3 (league of bruisers) as long as AD is concerned that they would rather have them fall off? Is having better items in place really going to kill anything? I really hope they just provide more options of that vein, assassin-marksman-AP rapist meta is getting old, especially when you get into team builder, and top/mid/jungle are all filled with assassins...

Dar RaksadaNov 12, 20142 votes

Don't get me wrong, I completely agree, just trying to explain why the items are as they are, and let's be honest, no one uses ohmwrecker nor is it viable for apmages so you were a bit biased:P but that's not the point here. The point is they are removing atma's and your question is why do that with no subsitute.

The answer seems to be it is one of the few "pure" statsticks left in the game, but the main issue is it giving offense, defense and offense scaling with defense. Offense scaling with defense (and vice versa) is a dangerous mechanic because it enables champions to spiral out of control, for an example see prenerf riven, the entire bruiserseason or release Diana. If they replace atma's it should be with an item that gives flat stats, it would fix a lot of issues with the item (it usually being either too weak or too strong).

Another thing to note as to why they are hestitant to bring in more good ad+def items is that it may break ad carries, you know how incredibly strong/op they are now, now imagine if they got were relatively tanky as well.

Lt CuddlesNov 12, 20142 votes

The average marksman/assassin doesn't really have the defensive scaling to make the most of defensive stats as well, then they run the risk of falling off in damage in comparison to other carries who built full damage, not to mention all the counter-tank items coming into play here: item 3153 item 3001 item 3071 item 3035 item 3151 item 3135 item 3142 . Hell, this could create a whole another layer of lels just by existing.

ZeroAnarchyNov 12, 20142 votes

No. An ADC should always have a defensive item, GA/Banshee's, an adc that is slightly more durable will always deal more damage than one who built full damage. Why? Because they can survive and not explode immediately when they get targeted. Good ADC's will always have a defensive item.

Lt CuddlesNov 12, 20141 votes

...So um, you saw the anti-tank items I mentioned up there, right? Look I do agree with the idea to some extent, but protect the carry comps do exist, topped with the fact that every ADC in the game has some sort of escape/disengage, you won't really need a defensive item unless the following scenarios come into play:

A) Your team falls behind and is a little more useful then meat shields.

B) They don't understand how do peel/protect you, leaving you to guard yourself.

C) Everyone, and I truly mean everyone...on the enemy team has a fanatical want to destroy you, to the point where they dump all the ults on you, push into your frontline just to get you etc.

Point is, if your team is on point in protecting you, then are fine if you get just damage, item 3102 / item 3026 is more for late game, when the enemy team isn't completely shattered by your efforts. :3

Dar RaksadaNov 13, 20142 votes

Against halfway competent opponents building full damage is no option (zed/fizz WILL get to the adc) and while it's true that your team should be there to peel for you, if you don't have a defensive item any random breeze (lux ult and stuff) will kill you even if your team is there to peel. But again, I'm not disagreeing, just giving insight in why they might not be making a replacement.

On the anti-tank item note. abyssal isn't really anti tank, it's anti squishy, I get it on fiddle for example if the enemies aren't building much mr because it allows me to ignore 53 mr (without lyandries) and thus do true damage. If they get mr and I don't need mr then I can get void staff instead (I usually get voidstaff later on but that's irrelevant atm).

Not every adc has a real escape mechanism, you could count varus' snare but kog maw doesn't have one, ashe doesn't really have one now due to the mobility creep, but not really relevant again. Lyandries isn't really anti tank as much as pro poke (and antitankpoke but it's not going to help you in burst situations against tanks), the true anti tank items are Bork, Void staff, Lw and back cleaver ( I might have forgotten some but can't think of any).

But the point here is that offense/defense items are dangerous with ad carries around, it'd depend on stats of course, but if mercurial scimitar is any indication adc's would spiral out of control fast.

Of course, that's no reason not to include an ad/crit or armour/crit item.

Lt CuddlesNov 13, 20141 votes

Against halfway competent opponents

Come now, they must all be so capable, right? :^)

FantasySniperNov 13, 20142 votes

The few niches where it's desired are not healthy for the game.

Top-lane, it would be extremely efficient on AD bruisers; Renekton JarvanIV Gnar Darius Olaf Malphite Pantheon Sion MonkeyKing . Then there's the ranged champs who would enjoy it for the same reasons; Quinn Jayce Vayne Gnar (again)

Either it costs too much for little reward, or it's going to be mandatory as a first item. Even if it were slot-inefficient, it would be easily sold later on.

AtheosisXNov 13, 20141 votes

The few niches where it's desired are not healthy for the game.

Top-lane, it would be extremely efficient on AD bruisers; . Then there's the ranged champs who would enjoy it for the same reasons; (again)

Either it costs too much for little reward, or it's going to be mandatory as a first item. Even if it were slot-inefficient, it would be easily sold later on.

I don't see the problem. Being efficient on a list of tier 2 or worse champs would be bad why? I mean Jayce needs nerfs and Jarvan is quite strong but the rest of those champs could use some efficient itemization.

FantasySniperNov 13, 20141 votes

There are even more I didn't bother to mention because I felt they didn't consider bruiser builds efficient enough, going either full AD or full tank, but it could end up working on them anyways.

Just putting an item into the game severely changes the landscape and can't be allowed exceptional cases of "over-performance" without having to nerf those cases, making them reliant on the item to accomplish what they did before without it. Think of Lich Bane. Its presence was distorting the capability of the champions using it, so they nerfed it to let more shine through and not make it such a chore to balance around it.

If you feel like going through with it and nerfing half the top-lane roster, go ahead.

AtheosisXNov 14, 20141 votes

There are even more I didn't bother to mention because I felt they didn't consider bruiser builds efficient enough, going either full AD or full tank, but it could end up working on them anyways.

Just putting an item into the game severely changes the landscape and can't be allowed exceptional cases of "over-performance" without having to nerf those cases, making them reliant on the item to accomplish what they did before without it. Think of Lich Bane. Its presence was distorting the capability of the champions using it, so they nerfed it to let more shine through and not make it such a chore to balance around it.

If you feel like going through with it and nerfing half the top-lane roster, go ahead.

In a world where you can buy Chain Vest and BF Sword for a total of 2270 gold I have a hard time believing an item with 50 AD and 50 armor and a minor passive ability (like health regen or something) for 2700 gold would be game-breaking.

FantasySniperNov 14, 20141 votes

That's because it was an inefficient item with an inefficient build path. The AD wasn't even delivered until you finished the item. To acquire that much AD required substantial health and would not be easily achievable at early stages of the game, and the champions benefitting from such little crit that would build health were few and far between. Old Sion and Garen are of the limited examples, and there are arguments against their viability anyways. Sunfire Cape would've offered more reliable damage as a rush. (BTW, the cost is actually 2300, but I assume that you were trying to include Avarice Blade's gold generation)

Imagine if Atma's really was viable and it gave tons of AD and defense for a reasonable price with an accessible build and cost early on. This is what you're trying to do. I doubt it will be healthy, but I never said game-breaking.

OleandervineNov 12, 20145 votes

I will miss Atma's. I hope there is a viable replacement soon, as it was one of the few items that tanky champions could take to flow off of their stats and still give them some bite. I don't see why this is being removed when the Tear items remain, as I see them as the mana counterpart to Atma's.

disregardableNov 12, 20143 votes

Who doesn't need attack speed?

SisuwolfNov 12, 20143 votes

Garen, J4, GP. Just to name a few. There's more too. Essentially most AD caster types, such as the 3 mentioned, don't scale well with AS at all. AS is mostly wasted stats for them.

Ulfgar TorunnNov 12, 20144 votes

J4 and GP both make full use of attack speed.

GyjYaNov 12, 20142 votes

Garen, J4, GP. Just to name a few. There's more too.

Garen yes. J4, GP, no. They both do extremely well with attack speed.

So you've named one champion so far. Not exactly much of an argument.

I suggest you try again.

BeatzBoyFTWNov 12, 20142 votes

Darius, Yorick, Sion

wolfaxNov 12, 20144 votes

Do any of those really want crit though? None of them are AD casters with an ability that needs crit. Garen uses it for spin to win, GP uses it for his Parrrley... None of the ones you've listed have an ability that scales on crit.

BeatzBoyFTWNov 12, 20142 votes

Because I answered a question that asks "Who doesn't uses attack speed?" -_-

JustMyBassCannonNov 12, 20142 votes

Does that mean you're going to start listing Leblanc, Xerath and Brand as well?

BeatzBoyFTWNov 12, 20141 votes

If you don't have the simple common sense, then it's very pointless to answer your question.

JustMyBassCannonNov 13, 20141 votes

If you don't have the simple common sense, then it's very pointless to answer your question.

If you lack the sense to respond by naming champions who need Crit, but not AS, when talking about the removal of Atma's Impaler, then it is extremely pointless to debate anything with you. I personally enjoy exercises in futility for reasons I can't understand.

BeatzBoyFTWNov 13, 20141 votes

If you don't have the simple common sense, then it's very pointless to answer your question.

If you lack the sense to respond by naming champions who need Crit, but not AS, when talking about the removal of Atma's Impaler, then it is extremely pointless to debate anything with you. I personally enjoy exercises in futility for reasons I can't understand.

=Who doesn't need attack speed?

^ I was just answering a question from this guy, AFK Farmer, despite whatever the title of the thread says.

And then I answered Darius, Sion & Yorick, top lane champions who doesn't need attack speed for it, that's it.

And then you bring up a useless fact of asking whether if I was gonna answer Xerath & Brand as well.

And that was the moment I can't even tell how much facepalms I must need to get you to understand English Comprehension.

JustMyBassCannonNov 13, 20141 votes

^ I was just answering a question from this guy, AFK Farmer, despite whatever the title of the thread says.

"I was just answering a question without considering the context of the question."

Okay, at least you've admitted you have nothing useful to say here, and are, at best, accidentally trolling.

He asked who does not need attack speed, because one of the concerns of the OP is that Atma's removal means that there are only two items that have Crit without AS. Logically, this would imply the question, "Who wants Crit Chance without Attack Speed?"

You proceed to name Darius, Sion and Yorick; three bruisers who prefer AS over Crit.

Have I explained it enough, or do I need the pneumatic drill for this to get through your skull?

BeatzBoyFTWNov 13, 20141 votes

"I was just answering a question without considering the context of the question."

Okay, at least you've admitted you have nothing useful to say here, and are, at best, accidentally trolling.

He asked who does not need attack speed, because one of the concerns of the OP is that Atma's removal means that there are only two items that have Crit without AS. Logically, this would imply the question, "Who wants Crit Chance without Attack Speed?"

You proceed to name Darius, Sion and Yorick; three bruisers who prefer AS over Crit.

Have I explained it enough, or do I need the pneumatic drill for this to get through your skull?

All I did is answered literally, and you turn it into some sort of English Literature. I bet when your dad asked you how old are you, you're gonna answer back with a 3-paragraph essay because ~~logics, durrr~~.

JustMyBassCannonNov 13, 20142 votes

You answered the wrong question.

And the last time my dad asked how old I was, I was twelve. Thank you for reminding me, one month from my 23rd birthday. Jackass.

BeatzBoyFTWNov 13, 20141 votes

You answered the wrong question.

And the last time my dad asked how old I was, I was twelve. Thank you for reminding me, one month from my 23rd birthday. Jackass.

rubs eyes miserably

fine fine fine, I answered wrongly, let's just do it your way, jeez.

GyjYaNov 14, 20141 votes

None of those champions build crit, so that's irrelevant.

Read the OP again; we're talking about champs that want crit but not AS:

If you have to remove Atama's can we get some other crit item w/o AS?

AFK Farmer's question is "Who [wants crit but] doesn't need attack speed?"

SisuwolfNov 12, 20141 votes

Wasn't trying to provide a concise list. Thought of 3 champs in 3 seconds and typed. If you can read it also mentions "most AD caster types," which you just decided to ignore so you could try to prove a point?

GP has numerous builds, extremely flexible and yeah some can use AS, but more often than not, he will scale better with AD, CDR, and Crit. Tankplank is one of his builds that probably scales best with AS, but if your going Tankplank, Atama's is an amazing item.

And if J4 scales so well with AS how come noone ever goes Feral J4? Cause CDR is much, MUCH better on him than AS. As an AD caster, more skill use through CDR is much more effective than more AA through AS. Thats why everyone builds CDR J4. My Fav J4 build item 3269 item 3143 item 3071 item 3005 item 3065 item 3207 Might not be the best, but a CDR build like this would waste most of any AS he buys/would give up one of the stats that he scales with much better to get some unneeded AS.

Sure AS doesn't hurt J4, but its mostly wasted on the few AAs youll b using btwn skills. CDR, armor pen, AD, HP, Resistances, all are better buys on J4 than AS.

GyjYaNov 14, 20141 votes

The point is AS isn't wasted on any of those champs, because they make full use of it...only Garen is the one where AS is a wasted stat.

And btw, no AD casters build crit chance =/

RebonackNov 14, 20141 votes

The point is AS isn't wasted on any of those champs...only Garen.

And btw, no AD casters build crit chance =/

Garen and Pirate?

GyjYaNov 14, 20141 votes

I already ceded Garen as an exception. I mean no AD casters other than him.

Gangplank most definitely isn't an AD caster, as almost all of this damage is done through auto-attacks

Sightless66Nov 13, 20141 votes

J4 and GP do ok with attack speed, not extremely well. J4 gets plenty from his E passive and active, and GP tends to function better as a CDR/Crit/AD monkey. They can build it, but there are usually other things they'd rather have.

DestínumNov 12, 20143 votes

Nope, there will only be IE left. Executioner's Calling is also getting removed, along with Sword of the Divine and Guinsoo's Rageblade. RiP in Pepperonis.

exiledFromBadmenNov 12, 20144 votes

item 3124 Kayle

item 3070 Kayle

FantasySniperNov 13, 20141 votes

item 3070 TwistedFate

eo120Nov 12, 20142 votes

why rageblade? item 3070 just cause it was never used in pro play didn't mean it wasn't still incredibly viable on jax or kayle

Lt CuddlesNov 13, 20141 votes

I loved "trolling" with SotD... ;~;

Kuroi86Nov 12, 20142 votes

Why no AD/AR item in the horizon. Because bruisers are still a scary reality.

MarthianNov 12, 20141 votes

And not just them, ADCs would definitely buy a better AD/armor item so they can duel better with other carries.

Kuroi86Nov 12, 20141 votes

Even before Atma's was nerfed ADC' didn't build Atma's. It's hard enough to get ADCmains to realize, even an ADC needs some defenses now and then. >_<

MarthianNov 13, 20141 votes

was talking about if a better armor/ad item came out.

Kuroi86Nov 13, 20141 votes

And everyone will say why build it over IE, Pd or Shiv. I understand why an AD/Ar item would be good, not everyone else would.

RebonackNov 13, 20141 votes