So when are we reworking Ahri's W?

SerdinorDarkRose·Dec 15, 2016·2 votes·824 views

Simple as that, this ability is one of the worse in the game. Besides to how great it looks, it provides nothing to her kit besides a bit more damage. It's seriously lackluster. The only other ability seemingly so useless I can think of would be an Ezreal's W if he goes the adc build.

Ahri is in a state where she can hardly competes in the tank meta. She is a safe pick in many matchups, but Lux/Ziggs/Xerath have also safe lanes and outrange her. Assassins after the rework have also safe lanes to some extend. She was supposed to be a high-mobility assassin mage that would reward you for landing her E. Yet here we are, after removing her E's dash interruption, the damage amplifier, giving her mobility on her Q that noone asked for as "compensation". Then a few minor tweeks and that's it. And then you called her a poke mage. But all she got was a bit more mobility in exchange for all that damage she lost. She is still on a spot where an experienced player can destroy teamfights with her, but that requires her to be fed enough.

Assassins are being played mid and they can prey on her despite her mobility. Lux/Ziggs/Xerath can outpoke her hard enough to win the lane. Does Ahri need huge buffs? No, like I said she's in an OK state. But I'm pissed because the W problem has not been addressed in ages. It's a trash tier ability and it needs to be replaced with something that would have synergy with her kit! Her old charm would reward landing a kinda slow skillshot by predicting enemy movement and catching people off guard. Now if you try to combo someone in lane you blow up half your mana and you do around 40% of the enemy's hp as damage or less. Riot said they wanted her to shift to a poke mage instead of an assassin, yet you kept on her the W ability as a close range compensation for her mobility? While every other poke mage has nothing similar? And let's not forget her W deals less damage per fire hit. Why? How does this reward you for landing E and getting in close range? More like risk yourself into cc range to do a bit more damage.

Her kit atm is a wannabe-poke idea, while keeping her assassin role. But too bad cause every other assassin or assassin-mage bursts better and quicker than her and every other poke mage outranges her. Give her a proper W ability already! And if needed take away the Q mobility, she never needed it anyway, it's the reason you called her "too mobile" and refused to buff her damage loss in the first place.

26 Comments

ScissorsNstuffDec 15, 20166 votes

inhale, exhale

{quoted}

Simple as that,

not as simple as you think

this ability is one of the worse in the game.

When dealing full damage its cooldown to output ratio is one of the highest in the game

Besides to how great it looks, it provides nothing to her kit besides a bit more damage.

and 3 charges to her passive and a delayed after effect to whatever on-spell she's using and 3 charges of single target on-spell and a reward for actually going in

It's seriously lackluster. The only other ability seemingly so useless I can think of would be an Ezreal's W if he goes the adc build.

ezreal's W can give a team 40% attack speed, against objectives this is a massive damage increase

Ahri is in a state where she can hardly competes in the tank meta.

http://champion.gg/champion/Ahri

bullshit

ahri was the top rated winrate of all midlaners and continues to be one of the strongest mages in the game.

She was also a strong pick when there actually was a tank meta

She is a safe pick in many matchups, but Lux/Ziggs/Xerath have also safe lanes and outrange her.

lux, ziggs, and xerath are artillery mages. Of course they outrange her they aren't even the same category of champion

Assassins after the rework have also safe lanes to some extend.

"to some extend"

She was supposed to be a high-mobility assassin mage that would reward you for landing her E.

false, she was supposed to be a high mobility mage assassin who would reward you for taking risks and going in to fight

Yet here we are, after removing her E's dash interruption, the damage amplifier, giving her mobility on her Q that noone asked for as "compensation". Then a few minor tweeks and that's it. And then you called her a poke mage.

False, she was called a kite mage, its not the same thing at all

But all she got was a bit more mobility in exchange for all that damage she lost. She is still on a spot where an experienced player can destroy teamfights with her, but that requires her to be fed enough.

Faker plays ahri and does just fine

Assassins are being played mid and they can prey on her despite her mobility.

Ahri is often picked BECAUSE assassins are played mid

Lux/Ziggs/Xerath can outpoke her hard enough to win the lane.

Bullshit

Ahri is a VERY strong pick against all 3, she is considered a soft counter to them.

Does Ahri need huge buffs? No, like I said she's in an OK state. But I'm pissed because the W problem has not been addressed in ages.

It was addressed and they decided to keep it. You'd know this if you actually kept up with the discussion that lead to the damage amp in the first place.

It's a trash tier ability and it needs to be replaced with something that would have synergy with her kit!

Its one of the strongest abilities in the game even after nerfs and it hoses the shit out of some of the most obnoxious picks in the game like Katarina Yasuo Zed Kassadin

Her old charm would reward landing a kinda slow skillshot by predicting enemy movement and catching people off guard.

this is a strategy game, I'm really not interested in hoping someone's guard is down or they make a mistake

Now if you try to combo someone in lane you blow up half your mana and you do around 40% of the enemy's hp as damage or less.

and this works even if they build defense I see no problem here

Riot said they wanted her to shift to a poke mage instead of an assassin,

they said kite mage, not poke mage. And her poke is damn good anyways

yet you kept on her the W ability as a close range compensation for her mobility? While every other poke mage has nothing similar? And let's not forget her W deals less damage per fire hit. Why? How does this reward you for landing E and getting in close range? More like risk yourself into cc range to do a bit more damage.

and yet she has been more successful in winrate and game health wise than ANY of those champs you mentioned

Her kit atm is a wannabe-poke idea

KITE

while keeping her assassin role.

mage assassin != assassin when speaking literally, it has some similar attributes but it is not the same

But too bad cause every other assassin or assassin-mage bursts better and quicker than her

Kassadin she has better range and deals more damage.

Leblanc her damage is faster even though leblanc deals more

Fizz she is less reliant on autoattacks, she has less delay, all fizzes abiltiies have delays except his Q and even that has a slight delay actually and its short range

What ap assassin are you talking about, there is no ap assassin with more damage than ahri + faster damage. This doesn't exist unless you ignore the amount of setup it takes to actually deliver said damage

and every other poke mage outranges her.

she is a mage with poke, but she is not a poke mage, she is a kite mage

Give her a proper W ability already!

give me less bullshit already!

And if needed take away the Q mobility, she never needed it anyway, it's the reason you called her "too mobile" and refused to buff her damage loss in the first place.

The only time they called her too mobile was when her R had no cooldown between dashes on release

CresmontDec 15, 20161 votes

holy shit, you got this mofo roasted more than a digiorno pizza

ScissorsNstuffDec 15, 20161 votes

Where there is salt, there is fire

For Ahri is hawt therefore logic

NO BIAS WHATSOEVER

#AhriFancultBanner

CresmontDec 15, 20161 votes

honestly, shes always been a strong pick but never too strong imho anyways

i think shes fine right now cuz like you said, you dont pick her for poke speficially, you pick her for eh ish poke, eh ish mobility, eh ish cc, shes basically the mage jack of all trades, similar to ekko

ScissorsNstuffDec 15, 20161 votes

You also pick her because she has one of the longest range pull-engages in the game which completely changes the calculus on how the enemy team will play (assuming they don't suck)

Spirit rush + charm = 1425 range. Vision range is only 1200. Realistically the range of this combo will look more like 1325 but the point is that if she can see you then you are always in danger.

Also unlike the other mage assassins she actually deals a lot of aoe with decent range, just at weird angles

But her upfront damage and full damage are actually pretty good though it gets spread out

Her max damage output in a single round of spells (not including thunderlords) is

280 + 70%AP + 3(140 (+ 40% AP)) + 200 (+ 50% AP) + 3(450 + 90%)= 480 + 420 + 900 + 180% + 180% + 80% = 900 + 900 + 360% + 80% = 1800 + 440% AP assuming I did the math correctly. At 300 AP that's 1800 + 4.4 * 300 = 1800 + 1320 = 3120 + any additional effects she's got and part of that is actually AP scaled true damage.

btw I forgot to mention that each of her spell casts can proc a stack for thunderlords. W can do 3. Q can do 2.

But then add to this her actual burst combo

we'll ignore

1 hit of Q 1 hit of W 2 hits of her ult

That gives us 140 + 35% + 182 + 52% + 200 + 50% + 150 + 30% = 672 + 167%

At 300 AP that's 973. Add in bonus damages and you get around 1000 damage.

Keep in mind that she can also heal or something Keep in mind that 300 is actually kindof low Keep in mind that the second combo actually goes off faster than most other combos and she can actually do this twice in a single ult round of ulting and really there isn't much stopping her from doing it a third time aside from how much cdr she has built up

CresmontDec 16, 20161 votes

wow a mage does damage, what a surprise headass, : P

of course a fucking mid lane kiting mage does dmg

ScissorsNstuffDec 16, 20161 votes

yes, but the best part about ahri's damage is that its split into so many parts that if you are actively trying to disengage she has to put forth effort and resources to keep stacking damage on or she will deal less than the average mage.

fantastic balanced hawt interactive! Much WOW

#AhriFancultBanner

CresmontDec 16, 20161 votes

oh wow, different champs have different strengths and weaknesses? who could've known

bad arcade kittyDec 15, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Where there is salt, there is fire

For Ahri is hawt therefore logic

NO BIAS WHATSOEVER

#AhriFancultBanner

ahri easily has one of the best kits in the whole game (it is why she has a stable high winrate and is very rarely banned), reworks even of bad kits make people mad , since it feels like their champion died, and so when some silly person asks to rework something which is very good it is especially annoying

SerdinorDarkRoseDec 15, 20161 votes

{quoted}

inhale, exhale

not as simple as you think

When dealing full damage its cooldown to output ratio is one of the highest in the game

and 3 charges to her passive and a delayed after effect to whatever on-spell she's using and 3 charges of single target on-spell and a reward for actually going in

ezreal's W can give a team 40% attack speed, against objectives this is a massive damage increase

http://champion.gg/champion/Ahri

bullshit

ahri was the top rated winrate of all midlaners and continues to be one of the strongest mages in the game.

She was also a strong pick when there actually was a tank meta

lux, ziggs, and xerath are artillery mages. Of course they outrange her they aren't even the same category of champion

"to some extend"

false, she was supposed to be a high mobility mage assassin who would reward you for taking risks and going in to fight

False, she was called a kite mage, its not the same thing at all

Faker plays ahri and does just fine

Ahri is often picked BECAUSE assassins are played mid

Bullshit

Ahri is a VERY strong pick against all 3, she is considered a soft counter to them.

It was addressed and they decided to keep it. You'd know this if you actually kept up with the discussion that lead to the damage amp in the first place.

Its one of the strongest abilities in the game even after nerfs and it hoses the shit out of some of the most obnoxious picks in the game like

this is a strategy game, I'm really not interested in hoping someone's guard is down or they make a mistake

and this works even if they build defense I see no problem here

they said kite mage, not poke mage. And her poke is damn good anyways

and yet she has been more successful in winrate and game health wise than ANY of those champs you mentioned

KITE

mage assassin != assassin when speaking literally, it has some similar attributes but it is not the same

she has better range and deals more damage.

her damage is faster even though leblanc deals more

she is less reliant on autoattacks, she has less delay, all fizzes abiltiies have delays except his Q and even that has a slight delay actually and its short range

What ap assassin are you talking about, there is no ap assassin with more damage than ahri + faster damage. This doesn't exist unless you ignore the amount of setup it takes to actually deliver said damage

she is a mage with poke, but she is not a poke mage, she is a kite mage

give me less bullshit already!

The only time they called her too mobile was when her R had no cooldown between dashes on release

The moment I saw you calling those 4 "obnoxious picks" you threw yourself in the gutter of every other player crying for Yasuo/Zed being op. And that says a lot and makes most of the bullshit you wrote above invalid. Besides the fact that you try to make Fizz/Lb/Kassa as a worse damage dealer than Ahri when they all have better burst potential and safer execution of it as well. Also, unless you play only co-op vs AI you'll know how Lux and Ziggs can demolish Ahri in the laning phase and put her 30+ cs behind due to range alone. You just tried to spew bullshit on every sentence to make a point somewhere lost in all that babbling, with the only thing I agree on being the kite mage. Her popularity has nothing to do with the obvious issue her W has, she is popular because she was popular before the changes and only big reworks can alter popularity on a loved-already champion. If you want to make valid criticism, make actual points. Plus the fact you say Faker does fine with her is laughable. Remind me the last time we saw Ahri in any LoL competitive scene recently? That alone is enough to prove she is not in her best lately. And fnally no, I don' care about the cooldown of her W being low when it still deals piss damage with 0 utility (you want to prove that it applies 3 times spell effects? Her passive that is only lane-gated? Or rhylai that noone builds on Ahri?).

ScissorsNstuffDec 15, 20162 votes

{quoted}

The moment I saw you calling those 4 "obnoxious picks" you threw yourself in the gutter of every other player crying for Yasuo/Zed being op.

What are you talking about? I havent asked for any yasuo/zed nerfs. They are obnoxious and I bet you most people would agree that they are in fact obnoxious regardless of their balance state. Who are you trying to bullshit here?

And that says a lot and makes most of the bullshit you wrote above invalid.

It says a lot about me? Then why don't you seem to know I'm openly against nerfing either one?

more bullshit

Besides the fact that you try to make Fizz/Lb/Kassa as a worse damage dealer than Ahri when they all have better burst potential and safer execution of it as well.

I didn't try to make them anything extra

I said they deal it in different ways and speeds. Ahri does hers more safely than kass, ahri does hers more readily than fizz and finishes faster unless fizz wants to gimp his own damage that bad to escape, LB does more and fizz does too but both are gated heavily.

Also, unless you play only co-op vs AI you'll know how Lux and Ziggs can demolish Ahri in the laning phase and put her 30+ cs behind due to range alone.

Good thing laning phase doesn't decide the game... 30 cs is far from an unsurmountable advantage outside of co-op vs AI.

You just tried to spew bullshit on every sentence to make a point somewhere lost in all that babbling,

There was no special point, I was responding to bullshit fluff and in turn my post became fluff responding to bullshit fluff.

If you want a pretty discussion then make a better post.

with the only thing I agree on being the kite mage.

agree on? That's not an opinion, you misunderstood and misquoted what riot said.

But yes, she wasn't meant to be a poke champ even though she does have poke and does need to do some poking at times.

Her popularity has nothing to do with the obvious issue her W has, she is popular because she was popular before the changes and only big reworks can alter popularity on a loved-already champion.

She is popular despite that and it isn't something new.

If you want to make valid criticism, make actual points.

if you want valid points stop fluffing up your wall of text with bullshit

Plus the fact you say Faker does fine with her is laughable. Remind me the last time we saw Ahri in any LoL competitive scene recently? That alone is enough to prove she is not in her best lately.

Dunno, don't care much either. The recent lack of diversity says more about the ones that were picked than the ones that weren't. When was the last time you saw a champion in a tournament and said to yourself "wow that's healthy!"

http://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Ahri

this is something relevant to the question however.

http://lol.gamepedia.com/Ahri_-_The_Nine-Tailed_Fox

this has some tournament history but it isn't up to date anymore unless you check specific pages.

And fnally no, I don' care about the cooldown of her W being low when it still deals piss damage with 0 utility (you want to prove that it applies 3 times spell effects? Her passive that is only lane-gated? Or rhylai that noone builds on Ahri?).

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Ahri

its been that way since release, check the details. It has different uses per season. It used to mean something for rylais or spellvamp and sometimes it still does if you build that. I for one would certainly build the new rylais on her now that its much cheaper.

Originally her build was item 3116 > item 3145 > item 3089 item 3020 > item 3135

item 3145 gave spellvamp back then. I think it was 12% or 15%

each also counts for a thunderlords proc which is great against many of the more obnoxious midlaners which has nothing whatsoever to do with their viability or whatever it is you seem to accuse me of for using that word.

And yes, I do believe more could be done with it by the way, but its fine as is in terms of the bullshit you're spouting.

I think her W should also have her mobility on it instead of her Q. I'm sure this would make it hard to gank her, the junglers can go fuck themselves cuz kite mage kites you, dive or gtfo

DoseqisDec 15, 20162 votes

Ahri is in a state where she can hardly competes in the tank meta.

Are we playing the same game right now, Ahri has been EXTREMELY strong and flying under the radar for a while now if anything she needs some nerfs

HyperiönDec 15, 20161 votes

She doesn't need any nerfs, she doesn't need any buffs, she is 99% perfectly fine and balanced.

TehNACHODec 15, 20161 votes

She can afford some nerfs. Not nerf hammer, just minor tuning.

HyperiönDec 15, 20161 votes

I think its just more the items and how the game is designed currently.

She is an early/mid game mage extremely gated by mana, and does 0 damage to tanky.

Also, any form of CC and she dies instantly.

IMHO, the thing that makes Ahri so good is just her ability to not get caught. Or to bring someone down while trying. That isn't a bad thing, she still is targetable when she ults. Its only a short length, about the same size as flash, maybe a little shorter. It is also the fact that meta fits her style 100%. Most of the other mages are not mobile, and the ones with burst, she gets wrecked by.

She only fits into certain team comps. If there are more than 1 heavy tank, and a lot of CC, A safer pick would be better.

AvienalDec 15, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Le Shenpai,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sHKFPBRW,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-12-15T16:05:38.954+0000)

Are we playing the same game right now, Ahri has been EXTREMELY strong and flying under the radar for a while now if anything she needs some nerfs

Oh i'm sorry i rarely get to see Ahri and usually its when she's accompanied by competent team mates or extremely strong champions that won't get snowballed to let other champions roam with ease to feast on Ahri or easily feasted early on Ahri and then go to feast on bot lane, where i've seen plenty of other matches where such things occur. Ahri is mobile but just like any standard mage she is utterly middle fingered by target based abilities such as CC and smart AoE able to spam abilities without mana problems and zone Ahri all day type of champions, which especially i had to deal with months back too when i was active on playing Ahri myself.

Ahri is good as the standard cookie cutter 'mobile mage', now its more of a wonder why she did not get some kit love on neither the mage update or the assassin update since she is still a combination of both yet does not spike in either of them compared to other champions who easily can spike as one of them with ease.

[slayer-jinx-unamused]

TehNACHODec 15, 20161 votes

She's got the third highest playrate in mid lane according to champion.gg. I've personally played and seen plenty of her.

Besides that, the vast majority of mages aren't mobile. There is no standard cookie cutter 'mobile mage' because Ahri is literally the only one of this category.

With that said, are we playing the same game?

ScissorsNstuffDec 15, 20161 votes

{quoted}

compared to other champions

why are you comparing her to other champions

Ahri either has what she needs or she doesn't and the results are speaking for themselves. She is very strong AND right now

cookie cutter 'mobile mage'

who are you talking about? Kass and leblanc?

she's generally been the safer pick of the 3 while also being the strongest most of the time

AvienalDec 17, 20161 votes

{quoted}

why are you comparing her to other champions

Ahri either has what she needs or she doesn't and the results are speaking for themselves. She is very strong AND right now

who are you talking about? Kass and leblanc?

she's generally been the safer pick of the 3 while also being the strongest most of the time

When i mean other champions i mean the general populace of champions she is placed under in 'role type'(Aka mages), by standard most of her kit is more of just running around and throwing out poke attacks and using either her R or 'mobility' to avoid big hit skill shots, in terms of anything outside of raw damage, she is seriously lacking the department of things so many other champions got their hands on and even got enhanced (Like how veigar originally had to last hit mobs or get kills/assists to gain AP, now he can just gain it by poking targets)

Kassadin i don't consider a 'mobile mage' he's more of a mage whose design basically acts as more of a Anti-mage with plenty of ways to take signficantly less magic damage and just jump around all over the place, not to mention one of his abilities basically feeds off people keyboard rolling their abilities (aka what mages like to do alot by standard) as another way to slow harass his targets.

Le'blanc is literally the example of a "fked up mess of a mage assassin champion", where she can do alot of damage by jumping on you even though her lore is suppose to make her a champion about mind'games and the assassin rework only made her even more ridiculously powerful when it was suppose to get assassins in line by being healthy to fight against and make said Assassins have to put some more mind work into juking their opponents for successful kills.

Le'blanc just basically got it easier by just W'ing next to them and throwing her E rope point blank in their face and can W escape and have plenty of tether distance to not lose it that easily.

In standard match ups, Ahri is strong just like how Garen is the safe pick on top lane and Ashe, or at least WAS the safe pick for ADC lane till the harass'poke champions encroached on it before and after the flat armor penetration changes. But ultimately it does not make her a good match up in mid lane against so many other champion types unless the player itself is so experience they can easily use 'skill' to perfectly time Qs and Es to easily land a kill. She may have good all in power thanks to her R and good escape with that same R and also her E can be used in either situation, but she is ultimately just a vanilla old champion where so many other champions of scum power exist currently that i'm sure the average player would rather op for Veigar Velkoz Annie Syndra Heimerdinger Lux Taliyah Ziggs Viktor Talon Zed Yasuo Orianna Morgana Lulu Fiddlesticks AurelionSol Azir Akali Cassiopeia Anivia Fizz Vladimir Teemo Swain Soraka Ryze Malzahar Lulu Leblanc Karma Karthus Kassadin Katarina Ekko

Because pretty much every single one of them, even if some are just basically fun fk around champion picks, have alot more in each of their kits then what Ahri pretty much has at the moment. Though i like Ahri theme'wise, lore'wise and mechanic'wise, she might as well be standing in the same spot as 3 other particular champions were before they had gotten reworked, they had weak kits for the current 'standard', were just unhealthy for matches or just plain joke plays outside of certain experienced players who played them right and actually played them right against scum champions and manage to do it multiple times with several different people each doing it to prove that the champion could be good. But it does not prove the point if the champion is just as a rare sight to see as is Udyr Warwick or even Kled for that matter cause any match i've played, i never see those 3, alongside many others including Ahri.

ScissorsNstuffDec 17, 20161 votes

{quoted}

i mean the general populace of champions

https://media.giphy.com/media/w6MNHOoLEzBVm/giphy.gif

Ahri IS the general populace of champions. The rest are mostly just for decoration

Ahri is better compared to irelia rather than garen

Both are strong and have several fallback patterns making it hard to "counter" them which is fine in league because hard counters aren't actually a good thing here and will get buffed/nerfed away

also

Ahri is different from the other ones in that she is the result of what they were the predecessors for. They changed the others after ahri showed out and was shown to be a good idea.

AvienalDec 15, 20162 votes

Glad to see someone agrees to my idea on Ahri needs alot more to her kit. A simple way, similar to how Garen got his armor shred on his E (Some may call that was a major buff to him, but to me it was more of a way to make Garen stand out as a strong team fighter to help a team capitalize on priority targets). I've actually for likely almost an entire year wanting that Ahri could use a lot to her kit which could at least reward alot more for successive hits on her abilities against enemy champions since the passive regardless of how many people will spin it is just as controversial as Kindred's R, except Kindred's ultimate has great potential to lead into a tower dive, temporarily force a cease fire and so many other things. Ahri's passive is only at best, akin to the 'Feast' mastery in terms it gives a minor heal and nothing substantial unless you throw it into a huge crowd of enemies, it does not even get 'increased bonus healing for hitting enemy champions or anything, Hell Ahri's W deals reduced damage on extra hits with poor targeting capability where plenty of other champions get so much more power allowance then how Ahri sticks out at the moment.

[slayer-jinx-unamused]

This is before even accounting for the fact that Ahri is a easy prey to Assassin type mid'laners, though she can use E or her R to peel from them jumping her, the cooldowns and amount of mana burnt up in the process makes such a use for those abilities kinda silly when Ahri can't at least punish the assassin in the process outside of a tiny bit of damage and Ahri using up alot of mana in the process.

Linna ExcelDec 15, 20161 votes

I kind of wished riot turned it into a passive AA damage boost with a 3 hit active effect that deals bonus damage if you use all three wisps against the same target.

bad arcade kittyDec 15, 20161 votes

her w is a short range nuke which is very good when you engage with ult and its range is low to balance her mobility

that's why ahri is assassin-ish, she should engage for an all-in

it is very nice that it is homing too

VekknaDec 15, 20161 votes

Looks like most of your Ahri games are against Yasuo or Katarina.

Of course you're losing to Yasuo. Poke doesn't stick, and his W makes your damage exactly 0. And he outscales you.
You have to work really hard to outplay a decent Kat as Ahri, but you'll only win that matchup if she fucks up.

ScissorsNstuffDec 15, 20161 votes

btw ahri's w does actually fit her theme if you've ever hit on some hawt grils