New ban structure suffocating creativity

Nachtengel··3 votes·788 views

Preamble: Ok first let me say i like the new system a lot, there are tons of pros to this system. I see all that, i don't want it gone. However there are some unintended consequences to the changes that i think we need to talk about.

I know we all love the meta, whatever it is at the time. but some of us out there are the experimenters. we don't enjoy just playing this game, we like trying things that shouldn't work to see if they would. or at least don't seem like they would be good and have fun testing things out. Not all of these things are dramatic either, but its all the same to the people im going to call... blocks.

blocks don't like unfamiliar. in fact they go out of their way to stop it from happening if they can. you know these people. they think someone having a bad game is a troll. when they are legitimately trying to play well. just suffering. they also tend to be the more toxic of the crowd in general. So lets talk about the problem.

Problem statement: when you get into the champ select for ranked. you select who you would like to play. now say im first pick support. and i choose an unconventional support, volibear, fiddle, mumu, illoai. I've announced my pick to my team, they are free to discuss it with me. i dont mind explaining myself.

What happens however is someone else just says something to the effect of. i dont want voli support, and bans him outright. even if they are not part of my botlane. and i see this for every position.

Analysis: While i like the idea that more people are banning now, and therefore more people can carry the responsibility of bans. it also makes it more likely to hit a block, someone who will ban out of spite. or troll his own team. (and yes this is legitimate trolling)

this is a problem for three main reasons: 1.) team synergy is immediately degraded. I have been antagonized by this person and possibly others if he is duo q. and therefore am less interested in their success. which means less interested in the success of the team as a whole.

2.) i have no recourse. there is nothing i can do about it. in fact the ONLY thing i could do (if i were in a ban position after him) would be to respond in kind with his champion. further degrading the team and also wasting two bans instead of one. if my only recourse is to respond by making my team weaker, or do nothing. something is wrong.

3.) most importantly, this means i now have to not declare my champion. negating the whole point of the champion declaration part of the process. since i don't want this problem. which may lead to its own effects since people now don't have a chance to ask me why im picking that champion or for me to tell them not to worry im not trying to hurt their game.

Now im a persistent type of person. but i know someone out there isnt going to go through the trouble. which means less people are going to try things, less people are going to find and learn. less people are going to be willing to experiment. and regardless of how your particular experience was with someone who does these experiments. its worse not to have them. those experiments are what make the game still interesting after years of play. don't kill it.

Possible solution: the easiest fix i can think of right now is just don't allow the banning of champions on your team for champions your team have chosen. also give an option to clear your choice. in this case. i choose verus and want to go bot. someone says to me please play ash and wants to ban varus. so i unlock the champion for banning and then wait to select whatever else. this would allow people to still declare which champion they want to play and FORCE would be blocks to talk to them about it before they can just cause such disruption amongst team synergy.

22 Comments

AHeroNamedHawke2 votes

And they're allowed to

Anyone that looks at your op.gg isn't going to want a support Nid/Illaoi with scores like that

Nachtengel1 votes

So, i should kill steal with support? or whats your point, because im support with no kills i shouldnt play? my point stands regardless of my scores. this isnt about me. its about the community as a whole.

how is that hard to see?

and no they arent allowed. it is not their decision who i should play, banning is for what you dont want to see from the enemy, not to stop your own team from playing what they want to play.

AHeroNamedHawke1 votes

{quoted}

So, i should kill steal with support? or whats your point, because im support with no kills i shouldnt play? my point stands regardless of my scores. this isnt about me. its about the community as a whole.

how is that hard to see?

You dont need kills no

You shouldnt consistently have 8+ deaths with 30% kill contribution, as that means you're dying for no reason and not getting assists

Nachtengel1 votes

again, this isnt about me. its about the community creativity. somones recent games shouldnt allow you to judge the next. thats how you get into bad games and keep failing at them.

To illustrate this, if my scores were all victories, and 100% kill cont. the same thing would still happen. and creativity in selection would still suffer, regardless of my or anyone elses scores.

AHeroNamedHawke1 votes

{quoted}

again, this isnt about me. its about the community creativity. somones recent games shouldnt allow you to judge the next. thats how you get into bad games and keep failing at them.

To illustrate this, if my scores were all victories, and 100% kill cont. the same thing would still happen. and creativity in selection would still suffer, regardless of my or anyone elses scores.

Then you would have some actual evidence you can play the off-meta champions effectively

Why should I be forced to trust my teammate saying "no really I can play support Katarina"? I don't know these people

Nachtengel1 votes

if they are of the same general rank as you, they got there somehow. you should trust in that alone. noone in the world would make a scientific or emotional conclusion based on 10 data points alone. that would be stupid.

their rank is your evidence, plus its not for you to decide how good they are or who they should play, its a game we all want to have fun with.

second i think youre missing something important here:

if you think banning somones champion will help you win the game (as is the intended goal i assume by forcing them to pick something else) you actually antagonize them to the point where their play will suffer. since you dont trust them, they wont trust you.

they wont dive with you, they wont join fights with you, they wont help you. you are actually causing more damage than good. in the end its worse for your chances than to let them play and have their trust. at least then they have your back.

if you cant see that i cant help you

dark100dark1002 votes

Once I accidentally banned a champ which somebody wanted to play. +1 for not allowing banning declared champions.

Nachtengel1 votes

this too

Tohob2 votes

the problem with this is that sometimes you'll get that really optimistic 5th pick who somehow thinks that jax is going to make it all the way to the bottom of champ select. under this system, you wouldn't be allowed to ban jax, and their first pick would be basically guarenteed to be jax right? so you should be allowed to ban champions that your team has already selected. i came up with a solution for this a while ago an i'll re-post it here:

when you attempt to ban a champion that your teammate has selected, a window pops up in the middle of the screen that says something along the lines of

WARNING: you are attempting to ban a champion that your teammate intends to play! if you ban this champion, a report will automatically be filed against you. If you have a reason to ban this champion, please state our reason in the box below, and it will be considered when handling your report. |........................................................................................................................................| |Cancel| ` |Ban|

so if you type: "he picked a bad champion and he's a troll so i banned it" - you get punished. if you type: "he picked xxx champion (anyone with a high pick/ban rate) and he's 5th pick" or any other very good reason - your report gets thrown away and you don't get punished.

Nachtengel2 votes

i thought of this, and i love this idea too. problem is riot would need to dedicate people to judge this, or create something like tribunal for bans. both i think are unlikely.

but i would take this too if i could.

Sneakyy XD2 votes

{quoted}

when you get into the champ select for ranked. you select who you would like to play

Don't do that.

Nachtengel1 votes

this is what eventually happenes, yes.

but then the whole purpose of that system is to start discussions about champ picks and team synergy. i liked that about it. i know not alot of teams use it. but when it does happen its great. i dont want that to go away. i think we are all smart enough to come up with something better.

Hayaishi21 votes

This is soloq, you trust yourself and only yourself, if my team goes with an "experimental" pick in ranked why should i risk it, only thing i care about is winning.

Letting them play Nidalee support because they like it when we could win easily with a meta pick is dumb.

Nachtengel1 votes

Im going to copy paste the answer from the same question i got 20 seconds ago:

if you think banning somones champion will help you win the game (as is the intended goal i assume by forcing them to pick something else) you actually antagonize them to the point where their play will suffer. since you dont trust them, they wont trust you.

they wont dive with you, they wont join fights with you, they wont help you. you are actually causing more damage than good. in the end its worse for your chances than to let them play and have their trust. at least then they have your back.

Hayaishi21 votes

{quoted}

Im going to copy paste the answer from the same question i got 20 seconds ago:

if you think banning somones champion will help you win the game (as is the intended goal i assume by forcing them to pick something else) you actually antagonize them to the point where their play will suffer. since you dont trust them, they wont trust you.

they wont dive with you, they wont join fights with you, they wont help you. you are actually causing more damage than good. in the end its worse for your chances than to let them play and have their trust. at least then they have your back.

Chances are we'll lose with some shitty support pick as well so it's w/e

Nachtengel1 votes

if its w/e then pick the option that doesnt make somone else have less fun, dont be selfish. plus teamwork is a powerful thing, even with non meta champs and good teamwork you can make things work you didnt think possible. open up to those.

if i had a choice between banning an extra champion, and choosing a teammate who wants to work with me, id choose the teammate everytime. why would you hurt your chances at that? it makes everything worse. the chat. the game, the fights, the help, the ganks. everything is worse with somone who likes you less than they would have.

if your goal is to win. your goal is to have a team who work together. not to have specific metas.

Rudolf Antler1 votes

So you think banning somones champion on purpose just because you dont like it is going to make them listen to you and pick a meta champ? Someone did that to me because they didn't want velkoz support. I didn't roll over and pick what they wanted. I chose garen, full AD runes, and went to lane with a longsword 3 pots. I denied my adc farm having over triple his CS, and made sure every kill was mine. He ended the game less than 50 CS and went 1/12. I carried that game as AD garen but I made damn sure he didn't enjoy a second of it. Someone isn't going to do what you want just because you ban their champ, they're going to pick an even more bullshit champ and fuck with your game.

Hayaishi21 votes

[{quoted}](name=Rudolf Antler,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=s8AcpbAW,comment-id=00030001,timestamp=2016-02-15T03:20:14.244+0000)

So you think banning somones champion on purpose just because you dont like it is going to make them listen to you and pick a meta champ? Someone did that to me because they didn't want velkoz support. I didn't roll over and pick what they wanted. I chose garen, full AD runes, and went to lane with a longsword 3 pots. I denied my adc farm having over triple his CS, and made sure every kill was mine. He ended the game less than 50 CS and went 1/12. I carried that game as AD garen but I made damn sure he didn't enjoy a second of it. Someone isn't going to do what you want just because you ban their champ, they're going to pick an even more bullshit champ and fuck with your game.

And as long as we win it's alright. Can't blame people for not taking your troll picks, even if you do force it upon them in the end.

Rudolf Antler1 votes

Just because you dont like it it doesn't make it a troll. That kind of toxic attitude doesn't belong in games.

Hayaishi21 votes

You'd choose the teammate, good for you buddy, i don't care about said teammate, he is some random guy i'll never see again, if he wants to throw a tantrum and refuse to work with me because i'm not letting him treat ranked as normals then so be it, ranked isn't to make friends if he wants to make the game worse for the team then so be it, i'm not his friend, i'm not in the game to babysit him, i'll just move on to the next one with people who actually care about winning, because it's not about the meta, there are bad and good champions(that are not meta) and whether we like them or not it doesn't change that.

Nachtengel1 votes

so let me get this right,

you'd antagonize your team, waste a ban you could use on meta bans, treat him like a child, be nonchalant about the game at that point and possibly force him into troll mode when he would'nt have otherwise.

and this is supposed to be your winning strategy that wins more games more often?

see if your goal truly were to win games, you wouldn't do any of those things. the only conclusion i can come to is that the meta (or your idea of it) is more important to you than winning.

you also state you're not there to babysit him, yet you do so by affecting his choices. and if he actually wants to win with whatever champion, why would you increase the chances to change that?

your statements are contradictory to your stated goal.

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