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As tank/juggernaut main I don't really enjoy the current meta/itemization

Geologydude··42 votes·1,964 views

I primarily play Juggernauts and Tanks. I like being really durable in pretty much every game I play. I like the feeling of being really powerful and strong and shrugging off enemy attacks to then beat them over the head. I don't really like being durable or tanky just as a means to empower other people so that they get to defeat the enemy and get the glory. I personally have more fun being the knight charging in to battle with arrows bouncing off his armor and running down his enemies, than the knight that holds a shield in front of a wizard so the wizard can burn the enemies all to flame.

First I know that tanks are really good right now, and I'm not trying to say they're weak, just that I don't think they are fun anymore.

In the past I felt like when I was playing really well, winning lane and getting an advantage I was able to have moments where I could just 1v2 or take over and be powerful. Now I don't feel individually strong. I feel like nothing my character does has any value unless someone else is there too.

Currently the more expensive and more selfish tank items like item 3068 item 3742 item 3143 all feel really bad to purchase when I compare them to cheaper more team oriented items like item 3190 or item 3800. It seem like I really shoot myself in the foot and gimp the team if I want to get a bigger item, because it just makes the whole team so much weaker. I also end up delaying other items by such a long time because they are so much more expensive. And a lot of the time the bigger items don't feel like they make much of a difference than the other items. Lifesteal, health shreds, and penetration all just make bigger purchases seem like they go to waste.

I know tanks are already strong, and I don't know what could actually be done about this without making bruisers and assassins even worse, but overall I just wish that the team/adc focused tank items weren't so much better than the bigger items.

30 Comments

Jbels16 votes

That's what happens when people complain that tanks are "one-shotting" them. They look at the tanks that were too strong at the time, see how much damage they were doing, and apply their argument to all tanks. Gragas isn't doing too much damage, ALL tanks are. It was insane bullshit of a level I've never seen before. So instead of nerfing the problem champions and being done with it, Riot blanket nerfed all tanks, and the only thing that happened is that the strongest tanks that were already seeing competitive play got weaker but didn't leave competitive play, and the weaker ones just got weaker and became even less worth picking.

Eedat3 votes

Huh? They also hella buffed a lot of the tanks. There are a few that were left in the dust though, admittedly

KoKoboto2 votes

To be fair everyone was doing too much damage. Everyone was exploding if you did so much as look in their direction for all classes. Sunfire + Iceborn gauntlet was ridiculous. So although tanks with their individual stats might not have done too much damage (which I'm unsure of), the items made them do a ton of damage.

RankOneUganda6 votes

{quoted}

That's what happens when people complain that tanks are "one-shotting" them. They look at the tanks that were too strong at the time, see how much damage they were doing, and apply their argument to all tanks. Gragas isn't doing too much damage, ALL tanks are. It was insane bullshit of a level I've never seen before. So instead of nerfing the problem champions and being done with it, Riot blanket nerfed all tanks, and the only thing that happened is that the strongest tanks that were already seeing competitive play got weaker but didn't leave competitive play, and the weaker ones just got weaker and became even less worth picking.

they mean they look at the poppy top that has 3 levels ahead of them and its early game because riot likes to introduce snowball mechanics and they want to 1v1 her with a zeal and a long sword.

quite ridiculous really.

Yaskamasandwich2 votes

{quoted}

That's what happens when people complain that tanks are "one-shotting" them. They look at the tanks that were too strong at the time, see how much damage they were doing, and apply their argument to all tanks. Gragas isn't doing too much damage, ALL tanks are. It was insane bullshit of a level I've never seen before. So instead of nerfing the problem champions and being done with it, Riot blanket nerfed all tanks, and the only thing that happened is that the strongest tanks that were already seeing competitive play got weaker but didn't leave competitive play, and the weaker ones just got weaker and became even less worth picking.

This always seems like the case. In patch 5.16 Riot destroyed all the late game for tanks with nerfing Cinderhulk. This was done for the fact that Sejuani and Sion were too op late game with it and dealt too much damage. Well ... that was their point, Sejuani had a weak early game any jungler could exploit. She also had the tools to try and stay in the game with her kit but being behind required more skills. If she was ahead sure it was hard to shut her down, but much easier than shutting down a few Marksmen like Vayne and Twitch for example. Sion had a weak late game until 45 mins. Even then at 45 mins you can still avoid his abilities and win from that, just killing him and kiting his Zombie form becomes 100x harder. Nope got to nerf all tanks because of these two champions.

Then tanks got forced into early and mid game, while forcing all Marksmen into late games. Okay so Nautilus and Poppy take advantage of this, buy Sunfire and Ninja Tabi, and shut down the Marksmen trying to solo them. This being done while Marksmen have no items yet to challenge them. This had to been done since Tanks no longer have late game and were buffed to early and mid game. Nope all tanks are OP nerf them all. Meanwhile buff all Marksmen and make them have a strong early, mid, and late game.

Riot has nerfed all classes because one champion problem and buffed all Marksmen too much to the point where we are here today. Everybody is a Warden or Enchanter for the always buffed Marksmen, or else you will lose.

Spoofghoul12 votes

You don't just make the team weaker with ''selfish'' items you actually make yourself weaker too

Those support items like locket, and other items likes stoneplate give you way more effective health

yea it aint permanent effective health, but let's face it that doesn't matter, it's there when it counts, the moments when you are taking lots of damage is when you use it to shrug that off and that is literally the only time you need to be tanky, when you fight.

So cheaper and giving more ehp when it matters, but they also give more utility for the team

If you want to be that selfish tank again

item 3078 item 3053 item 3193 item 3083 is where it's at You can grab cotc or grasp for more bulk too and run defensive runes masteries otherwise with possibly some penentration options in reds and quints

Gives 2 massive shields and you can double your hp Also gives you fat triforce procs and stronger basic attacks to boost dps a bunch to get some of that old damage back

Works very well on any beefy champ with a form of engage and at least one spammable or multiple semi spammable abilities

The shields work very well vs % damage and the health works well vs any sort of other damage

I find armor to be very lackluster for defense because it's easy to penetrate for enemies and most penetration items come with 0 drawbacks anyway

This build focuses more on the healthside of defense though you should still get a decent amount of resistances to beef up that hp a bit

And you will have the damage to hurt squishies a lot

Slythion10 votes

Tanks are separated into 2 subclasses: Wardens and Vanguards

Wardens are the "hold the shield infront of the wizard" tanks Vanguards are the "charge into battle while shrugging off attacks" tanks

Right now Wardens are why tanks are considered strong because they fit into the "protect the adc" meta that we're in. Vanguards aren't doing to great, which are the types of tanks you enjoy playing

That was my attempt to simplify and provide a new perspective on the current situation

Glory ln Death11 votes

The issue that OP is addressing is that Vanguards can only consistently find success when played and built as Wardens.

Brascus4 votes

Let's not forget how after vanguards juggernauts are also trash without building like a warden also.

LordGeovanni3 votes

the issue is every tank is being made a warden

muted team chat7 votes

This is what it's like when ADCs are so gross. Your only hope is to let your disgusting ADC live like for 1 second longer than theirs so he can kill 2-3 people in that time. Bruiser damage doesn't matter in the face of a 4-item adc right now so ADC life-span decides lategame outcomes.

Swaid6 votes

DrMundo vs. item 3123 item 3033 [cass-cry]

nGio6 votes

{quoted}

First I know that tanks are really good right now, and I'm not trying to say they're weak, just that I don't think they are fun anymore.

I know tanks are already strong, and I don't know what could actually be done about this without making bruisers and assassins even worse, but overall I just wish that the team/adc focused tank items weren't so much better than the bigger items.

No man, they're not.

Sejuani Chogath Maokai are strong.

Volibear Nautilus DrMundo Poppy Galio Ornn Malphite are dog shit. The class itself has a couple of really strong champs, with the majority being next to useless.

It's not 'the meta' and it's not (just) the items, it's the class. Sej, Cho, Mao, the top 3, all recently reworked/buffed. The items or meta didn't help Voli, Mundo, or Poppy. If they nerfed the 'the big 3' tomorrow, there wouldn't be 3 new op tanks to take their place, like the ADC carousel. A few tanks are strong, the majority of the class is absolute shit.

Predatorator1 votes

Skarner how could you even forget about him....oh wait :(

Noblewind3 votes

I always disagree with these posts because I've not once been in a scenario during a game where I feel like my tankiness (while playing a true tank) has been that weak, unless of course you're behind.

Whenever I play malphite top or Zac jungle and get a lead, I CAN walk into enemy teams and be basically unkillable for a significant period of time.

I think some tanks players just feel left out a little when it comes to kills. A tank is never going to be able to 2v1 double kill anyone even when ahead, that's just a pipe-dream. If they could they'd be unstoppable and wouldnt be tanks anymore.

GigglesO2 votes

{quoted}

I CAN walk into enemy teams and be basically unkillable for a significant period of time.

S1-S2 you were unkillable if you got far enough ahead... So... yea...

For some reason (according to the boards) being unkillable means you have no skill, but being able to press 1 button and instantly kill someone means you do have skill.

PePsiLemoNN3 votes

Yea , tanks are so weak right now it's ridiculous. /s

JayFoe5 votes

Support tanks are basically mandatory in the current meta.

OP is talking about solo or self-oriented tanks. Tanks that don't provide a big AoE shield for a team fight. Tanks that don't want to buy Knight's Vow.

Those tanks, the non-support tanks, are incredibly weak right now. They just don't have a viable role in the current meta.

LordGeovanni1 votes

Taric support Sona tanks Soraka are Janna manatory. when i play support i main support tanks but i havent played a support tank besides that leona a few weeks ago since that leona this time last year. Ive played a shit ton of Taric but only because he is the only champion i deemed item 3504 good on because he can aoe cast it and i built him hp ap item 3027

GigglesO3 votes

The solution is to build damage. because that is the only thing that riot cares about. Tanks aren't strong as you say. And I know I'm going to get downvoted for saying this... but the only "tank" that is strong is the cc bot/ I stand infront of you kind.

The reason is that players don't like being outclassed by a tank playing well. They are ok dying to a fed katarina, but hell to the no if its a morde with 4 defense items and a HtgB.

PopcornBunni1 votes

{quoted}

The solution is to build damage. because that is the only thing that riot cares about. Tanks aren't strong as you say. And I know I'm going to get downvoted for saying this... but the only "tank" that is strong is the cc bot/ I stand infront of you kind.

The reason is that players don't like being outclassed by a tank playing well. They are ok dying to a fed katarina, but hell to the no if its a morde with 4 defense items and a HtgB.

This really is the only thing that can be done a lot of the time.

Darius Illaoi MasterYi and anyone else thanks to item 3071 obliterate any tank wanting to play the character to do anything other than dash in, knock up, and stun while the adc feeds off the enemy or one-shots them with item 3031 + item 3087.

The only real solution is to play tanks as chain-cc drain tanks with the likes of item 3812 item 3147, and a suite of damage reduction.

I play Poppy so maybe that particular set of items just works better for her than others, but some variance of it is the only real way to do more than be a second (Or third with jungle, or fourth with mid) support for the botlaner.

Jerry Temporary2 votes

Note: I'm only talking about tanks, i dont play juggs enough to speak for them.

Agreed. I want to make a comparison to overwatch's Reinhardt here. He is a team oriented tank, but if the enemy threatens his backline he has the option to drop his shield and facetank damage while swinging his hammer for big short range damage and cc of his own.

The reason i mention this is because when you boil it all down, tanks are about controlling space. Wardens like to maintain control of their team's space while vanguards aim to take control of the opponents. Cc and shields are a great way to help your team stand their ground. But in the past they had less of this and more of another tool, close range damage. Damage is scary, it forces opponents back to avoid it. Today however, tanks must rely on their allies to put out any formidable damage. And thus, they can no longer control an area on their own. No matter what role you are playing, being able to deal meaningful damage in the right situation is fun. It would give tanks and other currently low damage roles the ability to carry, and to have a clear impact on the game seperate from their botlane and/or midlane carry. Not everyone wants to protect and enable the squishies all game. I suspect that even pros may dislike this even with as much as they do it, because they have no choice since their next dinner requires them to play as optimal as possible. Their is certainly a place in lol for the supportive cc mostrocities that have been so dominant lately, but there needs to be room for tanks like Malphite and Poppy to build how they please, be it selfishly or team oriented, and snowball if they manage to get ahead by shrugging off damage and hitting hard enough to threaten opponents like they used to (at least for Poppy, and yes i will aknowledge that she was op). Of course if they are behind that means they should probably still build team items. Really, all I'm trying to get at here is that there should be room in the game for both supportive and self-sufficient tanks to do their job as they see fit. Be that personally leading the team to victory or enabling those who can build squishy to do their job better than they could on their own.

I Main Swain2 votes

i miss my unkillable sejuani build with like 7 or 8 k hp (depending on if i got that second warmogs or not). i also honestly miss the old warmogs. sure this one has the passive but if you ask me not only is it an unhealthy passive imo but i also loved how warmogs was that niche massive chunk of health and thats pretty much what it was there for. it may just be my personal opinion but i loved how basic the itemization in the game used to be.

DeathBurst2 votes

As a Juggernaut main, there are plenty of other items that work well.

  • Iceborn Gauntlet is pretty nice in laning phase if you can trade well with an AD opponent.
  • Black Cleaver remains a core item for most of the Juggernauts.
  • Titanic offers both damage and durability at the same time.
  • Sterak has good synergies with Gauntlet AND Titanic. The item alone is a bit weak, but it should be buffed next patch.
  • Death's Dance is a pretty nice damage item.
  • Spirit Visage works great with all the self-heal that pretty much all Juggernauts have.

Now you mentioned "Juggernauts and Tanks" in your OP, and I agree that Tanks aren't in that great of a place right now. But Juggs are pretty much fine.

If you want to play "selfish Tanks", Titanic and Gauntlet still work somewhat. For the AP scaling Tanks, you can also go RoA first into Tank, and you always have the option to pivot into Abyssal from Catalyst if the game doesn't go well. That being said, if you play a TANK, at no point in the game should you be able to 1v2, unless your opponents are totally stupid and throw themselves at you in a suicidal way. I think your issue is more a question of perspective than a real balance issue. If you want to be able to 1v2, you should play Juggs, not Tanks.

Champs you should give a try and that can still work with a "selfish build": Singed, Galio, Malphite, Ornn, Maokai, Sion, Rammus, Amumu. Probably Zac, Gragas and Sejuani too, but I don't play them personally so I can't vouch for them.

The Yetii Rider2 votes

By selfish tank items you clearly mean selfish armor items. Abyssal Mask, Spirit Visage and Adaptive Helm are all working great.

Thornmail is also very strong. It's the selfish tank item I recommend rushing right now.

As for the tank item that feels the best? It's Cinderhulk of course. If you want to enjoy your tanks, leave top lane and rampage through the jungle instead.

Geologydude1 votes

Thornmail isn't that good, the old Thornmail was actually better overall. Bramble Vest is what's overpowerd. People just buy it and then sit on it till their final item.

idontplaythemeta1 votes

yeah you see those tank items you wanna buy?, don't buyem. buy bruiser items then like 1 or two tank items... maybe my adice is too narrow minded. or maybe I think frozen mallet black cleaver is fucken funny. you said you wanted more intesting tank play. to solve this play your tank, then go 1v3 split push. need an example on who to do this with? sion, braum, orn...ish, cho (build whatever on him I guess though), fizz, teemo, gnar, tryn (even though full crit better), sejuani, and probably more that I don't know of. wish it worked on naut. if your a naut player just go ap bruiser (roa->liandries-Lich bane->full tank after that).

this, is how to have fun as a juggernaut, you just don't fucken build full juggernaut... you go bruiser, and you fight... "but my team needs me alive" and well yeah you cant run in 1v5 and live you can still 1v3 and get a double which is still an assest to your team. and team fights youll be monster. not just some unkillable peeler. a hard to kill feared warrior that they need to back the fuck up from.

DragonShea1 votes

The problem with tanks one-shotting them is that Riot is not giving them high base defensive stats while nerfing their damage. Tanks shouldn't have this much damage and if they are they should have a drawback to it. fatboy Gragas for example, should have low defensive stats at the start when he gets tanky, he only has slightly less tankiness while having good sustain.

Snowplosion1 votes

It's almost like they want you interacting with the four other guys on your team.

The Bad Touch1 votes

{quoted}

It's almost like they want you interacting with the four other guys on your team.

If they wanted you to do that they should add in game voice comms. The only interacting anyone does in soloqueue is "gg ez" and "kys."

Solo/Duo queue at the end of the day is about winning your lane, and taking that advantage into a mid/late game snowball. That's how it works for 90% of the player base. If a champions can't do that then it's basically useless/unplayble.

Hell I don't even bother trying anymore if I see an Ornn on my team. I just assume I have a 2/3 chance of losing, and hope my team gets far enough behind to FF at 15 or 20 so I can get to the next "winnable" game faster. He can't split push, and his peel is so slow it doesn't happen until your adc died 2 seconds ago.

Top lane only has 2 winning strats. Either play a Warden and be your ADC's bitch late game, or play a fighter and split push for half an hour.

Juggies and Vanguard don't do either of those as well.

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