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@Fearless : What is going to happen to Sona now?

Fossoway··8 votes·3,463 views

I am a support main, and pre-rework I was a Sona main. I must say I was very anxious when I heard my favorite champion was going to have a rework, having seen the backlash on the new Skarner and Rengar. I think it is actually worse than I thought.

This is not a rage post. What is done is done, but you said a few weeks ago that you will keep an eye on her and make changes if the community is not satisfied. Since everything about Sona is getting a bit quiet, I would like to ask if you are planning to make her better.

Don't get me wrong, she IS playable. But that does not mean new Sona is good. Here are my issues with her:

  • she is powerful, but she does not FEEL powerful
  • she is not fun, at least not as much as pre-rework
  • her early game is dreadful: be aggressive and you die, be passive and you give your foes the opportunity to bully you
  • she used to be a lane bully, now she has almost no damage on her own (on LoL King she is listed as having 70% damage below average), which means that if your adc is bad, you can't do anything
  • she used to be a very safe pick. Pre-rework, if my adc was afk, I was able to hold the lane, now it is a lot harder
  • she does not feel rewarding enough. You take more risks to tag your allies for almost nothing in return. Most of the time, after a skill, I just try to tag as much allies as possible and pray for the best. That is not a rewarding feeling.

Skill-wise:

  • her Q buff feels weak. Like I said, she depends a lot on her adc to deal damage, and most of the time they will use this buff on minions. It is not visible enough on them (not as much as Nami's E). I have no problem with the base damage, but the buff feels clunky as hell.
  • her W heal is fine by me, but I don't get how this shield works. It is on for a very short time, and most of the time the shield is wasted. I would not mind if the shield was smaller but lasted longer
  • I don't get her E at all. Pre-rework it was known as the Sona train: stay close to your allies and make them move faster, all the better to take objectives or rush a fleeing foe. Now, since Sona's speed buff last longer than her allies, she has to stop and wait for them... I just don't get it. It feels clunky and awkward, both active and buff.

Personal opinion:

  • I actually do not mind the smaller aura range, but I was expecting some buff to her hp/mr/armor to compensate, especially since she no longer has her lasting W passive aura. Instead she got even squishier (at least on the early levels)
  • I was highly disappointed by the changes to her cooldowns. Sona has always striken me as a "piano" champion, meaning by this she is a spam fest champion with abilities ON THE SAME SHORT COOLDOWN. It was 7/7/7 before, I was not happy when it became 10/10/10, I was frankly pissed when it became 8/10/12
  • I am also a bit sad that her auras (which are no longer "auras" anymore, they are aoe buffs, that's not the same) no longer have persistent effect, at least on herself. Sona and Udyr were the only two "stances" champion, it's too bad she no longer is one. Without a pulsating light at her feet, she almost feels naked (heh)

Don't get me wrong, I am not asking for buffs. New Sona is very strong, but she is lacking something that could make her feel great without making her overpowered. I am just wondering if some powershift or some tweaks are planned. As a core Sona player pre-rework, I can no longer play her as she is right now. She just doesn't feel right.

PS: forgive my English, it is not my main language.

48 Comments

FaerKhan7 votes

Everyone who enjoyed playing Sona before agrees that she doesn't feel right now. Spot on with most of your comments, I agree.

Willahelm Fulber6 votes

This comment is wrong. I am proof. I played sona before the rework, and honestly I like post-rework sona more.

YouLostMe4 votes

I'm in the same boat. But I can also see a lot of the points in the OP (like with adc's wasting their buffs, that is obnoxious) and I would still like Fearless to address them.

Fossoway4 votes

Thanks for your objectivity. It is not about liking or not the new Sona (I personally prefer the old Sona a lot more than the new one). In fact, I don't think Riot will ever go back on this rework even if the whole community begs them for it.

I do not think this rework was a necessity or even useful, but it is here to stay, as much as some of us dislike the idea. But even the most hardcore supporter of post-rework Sona gotta admit that she is not perfect as she is now and could use a little help.

What I am concerned about is that Fearless promised us to keep an eye on Sona after the rework but we haven't heard anything for a long time :/

Pika3104 votes

Agreed, he's chosen the path of the Devil's Advocate and while I personally can't respect that, I do understand that some people enjoy villainy.

Personally, I haven't asked for a revert on the rework even once, with exception to Celerity. I just wish her numbers on every single change hadn't been comparably nerfed. This rework could have been a success and still can be if Riot chooses for it to be. So far they've made it clear they just want Sona to fade into obscurity.

It feels to me like there's not a single mathematician employed at Riot or if there is that the balance team is blatantly ignoring him completely on the matter.

bbbbates3 votes

As someone who only occasionally plays sona, I can say this.

Post rework her Q and W feel a lot weaker, but I like her E a lot more. Also the crescendo particle updates help...

Although I agree that the rework should not be reverted, I do hope that Riot sees the potential for the Q and the W, and she goes back to feeling like that "piano champion" that OP mentions

YouLostMe3 votes

Well we know that we can't bring post-rework Sona back, because of all the toxic parts of her kit (100% bully damage uptime, invisible power, top-off healing effects), but I agree that I would appreciate some of the old Sona back.

I know Fearless said he/she was going to wait 3 weeks because that's about the amount of time necessary for the community to get used to Sona. So hopefully decisions should be forthcoming Soon(tm).

And please ignore Pika310, he is on a strange vendetta-rampage against me because he thinks I'm a bad person for supporting Sona and criticizing him. I think he's also systematically downvoting every post I make in a Sona thread, even the ones that don't involve Sona at all.

Pika3102 votes

I know Fearless said he/she was going to wait 3 weeks

Meanwhile 17 weeks later...

YouLostMe1 votes

... she has a 55% win rate (highest of all supports) and a strong 8% pick rate. OMG SO USELESS SONA GOT NERFED AAAAEURRRGAARAGARBL

Karn Bishop6 votes

They wont do anything, just like they ignored old xerath mains who said new xerath was no longer a siege type champion they wont care about your opinions.

shadowsaotome3 votes

I've played Sona quite a bit post-rework, and I've had a ton of fun with her. Her early game is difficult, and you are right that if your adc is bad, your options are extremely limited. However, her teamfight presence is incredible. The healing and damage you can provide your team is outstanding, and well-placed Power Chords can turn the tide quickly, not to mention her R. I also like how leveling up her R gives additional benefits to her other skills. I have to disagree with you about her feeling powerful; I feel like a king whenever I come in with WQ and in an instant turn a teamfight around.

Emmy Cha0s2 votes

You also chose to not include the fact that you're Bronze 5 with less than 25 points. I for one don't trust your judgment and I would advise everyone else to take what you say with a grain of salt.

shadowsaotome2 votes

I hardly see most posters include their rank, but you're right, I'm B5 and just got out of a major tilt. I did that with Sona, so naturally I'm feeling pretty good about her. I would also agree with Fossoway that she is better at securing victories rather than coming from behind. She is very team reliant, somewhat akin to Janna in that regard, and it's very difficult to feel useful if things are going badly.

Pika3103 votes

I win a lot of games when I'm on Thresh or Braum, but I don't have to point out those 2 are strong. People already know it to be true and anybody who claims otherwise gets unanimously laughed at. You wouldn't believe how hilarious the threads are of people somehow complaining about Thresh nerfs.

If you have to defend a champion against such a large number of players who are telling you otherwise, clearly the line is a lot more ambiguous than you believe it to be and the world isn't quite so black and white as you're seeing it.

YouLostMe1 votes

Argumentum ad populum is a fallacy! Remember the rengar rework.

Fossoway6 votes

But her R is mostly unchanged by the rework. It is and always has been a game changing ability. Most of the good points you are listing about the new Sona were actually already there pre-rework.

As for her power, it is really true that she can be powerful, but like someone said in another thread, when your team is ahead, you are the nail in the coffin for the other team, destroying all their hopes for victory. But if it is your team who is struggling, it is a lot harder to be helpful as the new Sona depends a lot more on her team. It was actually easy to turn the tide of a very bad game as pre-rework Sona, but the new one is struggling to do so.

The Yetii Rider3 votes

Okay, so I agree with this, have a bump and an upvote, but asking for them to look at her again isn't going to change anything. We need to get creative and make actual suggestions if you want Riot to really take us seriously.

So, here we go. @Fearless, if you read this thread, please at least take a look at these suggested changes:

Power Chord: This ability has lost its damage but is still one of the abilities that has the most flash and power behind it, other than Crescendo obviously. The issue I have with it (besides its mana cost, as I have stated repeatedly) is its range. Sona has the second lowest health in the game and you have stated frankly that you want a Sona who builds for utility to be less powerful than a Sona who builds AP, so it seems like you expect Sona to either build for support or build for AP, not tank. If that's the case, don't reward her for building tanky by giving her a more reliable passive. Make the passive less risky for non-tank Sonas. Instead of augmenting her next auto attack, have it augment her next Hymn of Valor, or perhaps apply it as a buff to her allies autos in her next ability active, but it is consumed by all allies when the first auto attack lands. (If you do this, remove Power Chord's ability to affect minions and monsters).

Hymn of Valor - The simplest change would be to have the auto attack buff not be consumed on minions or monsters. This is an unfair learning curve to Sona's ALLIES, not to Sona players themselves. You are punishing her allies for not understanding or listening to the rework, and in doing so, you are weakening Sona's power while giving her nothing in return. You have balanced the ability around 5 champions landing autos after one Q on the enemy team, but a good 60% of that power budget goes out the window in lane when Sona has to hide against poke and all-in and her carry is farming.

Aria of Perseverance - Definitely a strong, satisfying ability. No changes recommended here.

Song of Celerity - Beautifully implemented, although it still annoys me that Sona has 0 cc in lane unless she has at least two skills, spends at least 155 mana and gets in 550 range for an auto attack, all for a 2 second 40% slow (Lulu is laughing constantly at this). My concern here is that this is where the majority of Sona's new power is going. The AP scaling ratio is far too high for this ability. If Sona builds AP, which, I have to stress, she absolutely should not do (even if that's your design goal, it's a bad design goal. She's too squishy and her mana costs are too high and she's a UTILITY SUPPORT SO SHE SHOULD BUILD UTILITY), then she turns her whole team into a group of fighter jets. It's extremely nice and powerful but there is 0 counterplay other than killing her or using displacement cc on the enemy team (neither of which is going to be an option for every team comp) and a champion's key utility should NOT be enormous, consistent, global mobility. This will just add to the mobility creep if it stays the way it is, and as soon as people figure out how to lane with her, AP Sona mid will be even worse than Lulu mid, topping people off and then sending her whole team after the enemy, following up with Crescendo. Her speed and her ultimate are so terrifying at this point she may even become as bad as Orianna once everyone learns how to safely lane with her.

Crescendo - Like every other Sona main, I appreciate you fixing the visual here. I also like the nice touch of the fast dance. I have a serious question here though:

This is the first time I've ever seen Riot have an ability with non-linear scaling (Your values for her other abilities go from 10 to 20 to 40). Why did you decide to do this? If 10 was your starting point and 40 was your end goal, it would have been a simple matter for you to code it and stay with your standard route, 10/25/40. You also completely glossed over this, not even mentioning why you decided to make a non-linear ability or deviate from the standard. Is this going to be a new thing that Riot does, balancing early game and late game champions

The Yetii Rider4 votes

Non-linearly? If so, I hope you hit Lee Sin hard with this soon, this could be the answer you guys were looking for.

Now, on to the concern. You guys still didn't nerf Crescendo. Come on, this is an easy one! The whole reason Sona's kit has to stay so weak is because her ultimate is too strong. You've said it, Sona mains understand it. Stop trying to make us happy and just nerf it already. An AOE 1.5 second stun is an unreasonable ability to have and even if we've accepted it as a key part of Sona's kit that doesn't mean it should stay and continue to give her unhealthy gameplay.

If you nerf Crescendo, several things could happen. You could give it a reasonable mana cost. You could give Sona more health and armor. You could improve her early game a little bit, while making her late game auras stronger.

Here are my suggestions:

  1. Increase the cooldown. Sona is a support, you guys have overloaded support and AP items with CDR. Compensate for this. Balance Sona's ultimate cooldown around her having 40% CDR. She's going to have it whether you do this or not so you might as well take it into account. I'm thinking 140 seconds at all ranks, because yes, that ability is THAT good and her opponents do deserve some relief from it.

  2. Give it a casting animation. This could actually make Sona more like Sona. Have her quickly play out an impressive tune on her etwahl, maybe a 1-1.5 second channel time before she unleashes her powerful ability. This would make it a much less useful disengage ability, while rewarding a Sona who has strong positioning in the back line defending her carry. It would remove the ridiculous Flash + Crescendo plays, which are fun to watch but not fun for everyone affected and would ultimately be less rewarding for the Sona player than catching someone mid-gap closer with her channeled ultimate. (Honestly, I'm serious when I say that higher skill mechanic champions are more fun and interesting for the player)

  3. Reduce the duration. Make it 1/1.25/1.5 seconds, or maybe even buff it a little with 1/1.5/2 seconds. Keep Sona's identity as a late game, team fighting support and curb her presence in lane even more so that she really has to fight to get to that glory time.

  4. Remove the damage completely. You've changed the way Sona plays, she's a terrible poke support now, and Crescendo is a powerful enough ability as a team wide stun without it also being a mini-nuke.

Pika3103 votes

I'm confused, is this sarcasm or not? It sounds sarcastic especially at the beginning, but there's way too much thought and effort being put into it. Admittedly, I can't agree with any of them if you actually are being legit, except maybe #3 part B.

The Yetii Rider3 votes

I'm one hundred percent serious. Crescendo is too strong and it needs to be nerfed so that Riot can stop balancing her whole kit around her having an overpowered ultimate.

Asphole2 votes

This, one hundred times over. I'd promise to never press r if it meant that her q, w, and e were more useful and satisfying to use again.

Emmy Cha0s5 votes

Woah, I thought he was just mocking Fearless for how he thinks Crescendo is the most broken ability in the entire game. Now I'm just like, "Wtf?! He was serial?!" Seriously, I'd rather have Nami, Morgana, Braum and maybe Annie's ult over Sona's any day. Not to mention they have stronger kits to accompany them too.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

Nami and Braum both have a travel time on their ultimates while Sona's is instant. Braum's Area of Effect on his knock up is thinner. Tidal Wave is certainly stronger when used correctly, but Crescendo is much stronger for instant saves and turn arounds. Tidal Wave has a cast time. Soul Shackles is just...like, it's not even anywhere close to the other three. An Area of Effect slow that can result in a stun if you stand still is not like an instant or traveling knock up/stun at all.

Summon: Tibbers as an ultimate is not even a support ultimate, the only thing that brings it even close there is her passive, Pyroclasm.

Even if you don't agree that Crescendo is strong, Riot thinks it is. And if that's Riot's excuse for keeping Sona's kit and base stats weak, then I say "Bring it then! Nerf her ultimate and compensate me, I don't need a free get out of jail free on my team fights, I have enough experience and skill with Sona that I can make her work without it"

Emmy Cha0s4 votes

Crescendo is not instant though. Near every Sona player will attest that it has a cast time probably of around .1 seconds. They will tell you countless times they have heard the sound FX, but it didn't actually cast due to being interrupted in some way, like say death for example.

I don't understand why, but you seem to be under the assumption that I claimed those champions' ults were identical to Sona's, but that would be like comparing apples to oranges and is simply not the case as the shrewd reader would have realized. I just stated they're all potentially more impactful in a teamfight than Crescendo due to their much stronger various individual utilities. You didn't address the issue of all of them having stronger kits, please impart your "wisdom" on that matter as well.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

I didn't address them having stronger kits because I didn't feel that part was necessary to explain. Everyone here already knows that Riot's stance on Sona is that her kit has to be kept weak because Crescendo is so powerful. Of course she has a weak kit, her ult is mind-numbingly easy to use and extremely powerful. That's why I said go ahead and nerf it, so we can have a better overall kit.

Crescendo doesn't need to be as useful as it is to be good. It's a huge aoe stun that's easy to land, a higher cooldown or a complete removal of damage would bring the skill itself in line so the rest of her kit could actually receive some buffs to compensate.

Pika3102 votes

Yet regardless of your claim that the kit nerfs were to compensate for her ult, she remained an underplayed champion even previous to the changes. Being completely outclassed by the big 4 in addition to several others that had a chance to shine. There was absolutely no justification and claiming a "powerful ult" is illogical as it was exactly the same previously and still not enough to secure anything more than a niche pick of personal preference. Her current state can't even bolster that much anymore. What would be the point of making a trade-off as opposed to just straight buffs on a champion that is already comparably weaker in every alteration?

The Yetii Rider1 votes

The point is that Fearless isn't going to straight up buff her. You can claim your views from the player side all you want. I'm going to stick with what I think will work, which is admitting that Fearless is right and too much of Sona's power is in her ultimate, and say that as a Sona player I am willing to sacrifice some of that power so the rest of her kit can be satisfying. I'd rather have the champion be good with a mediocre ultimate than her not be good period.

Emmy Cha0s2 votes

"Like arguing with a wall."

Using logic and reason doesn't work against your kind. So I'll use your line of thinking instead.

I believe Sona's normal abilities should be removed entirely and to compensate they buff her ult to do 1500 base damage and stun everyone affected for 7 seconds.

Clearly Sona only needs her ult and nothing else, as this is her only redeeming feature. Thoughts and comments please?

The Yetii Rider1 votes

If you think that you're not getting through to me, why bother replying to begin with?

People have been arguing against Fearless since the rework started.

"The very definition of insanity is doing something exactly the same way and expecting a different result".

There is no way you and your line of thinking are going to change anything about Sona's kit. If I try something else and offer a concession, that's at least one (two, since someone agreed with me) voices that will at least encourage him to nerf her ultimate and fix her kit. Meanwhile, your demand for buffs without giving up anything in return will fall on deaf ears.

Emmy Cha0s2 votes

No, they need to buff her ult and get rid of her abilities. If it means she can solidify her role as an ult bot, I'll gladly not have any abilities until level 6.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

Yeah, it's comments like this one that are definitely going to encourage Fearless to do something about Sona.

Emmy Cha0s2 votes

Exactly! I'm just asking for a trade-off! Since Sona's ult is so stiflingly powerful, it should be made the centerpiece of her kit. Since Riot feels her other abilities don't matter anyways, they should just get rid of them entirely and make her literally a walking ult. At the same time, they also need to reduce her attack range to -50 so that she can't abuse AD items.

Skia Asteri1 votes

Nami and Braum both have a travel time on their ultimates while Sona's is instant.

Crescendo has travel time and can be stopped by Windwall.

Skia Asteri1 votes

Non-linearly? If so, I hope you hit Lee Sin hard with this soon, this could be the answer you guys were looking for.

Now, on to the concern. You guys still didn't nerf Crescendo. Come on, this is an easy one! The whole reason Sona's kit has to stay so weak is because her ultimate is too strong. You've said it, Sona mains understand it. Stop trying to make us happy and just nerf it already. An AOE 1.5 second stun is an unreasonable ability to have and even if we've accepted it as a key part of Sona's kit that doesn't mean it should stay and continue to give her unhealthy gameplay.

If you nerf Crescendo, several things could happen. You could give it a reasonable mana cost. You could give Sona more health and armor. You could improve her early game a little bit, while making her late game auras stronger.

Here are my suggestions:

  1. Increase the cooldown. Sona is a support, you guys have overloaded support and AP items with CDR. Compensate for this. Balance Sona's ultimate cooldown around her having 40% CDR. She's going to have it whether you do this or not so you might as well take it into account. I'm thinking 140 seconds at all ranks, because yes, that ability is THAT good and her opponents do deserve some relief from it.

  2. Give it a casting animation. This could actually make Sona more like Sona. Have her quickly play out an impressive tune on her etwahl, maybe a 1-1.5 second channel time before she unleashes her powerful ability. This would make it a much less useful disengage ability, while rewarding a Sona who has strong positioning in the back line defending her carry. It would remove the ridiculous Flash + Crescendo plays, which are fun to watch but not fun for everyone affected and would ultimately be less rewarding for the Sona player than catching someone mid-gap closer with her channeled ultimate. (Honestly, I'm serious when I say that higher skill mechanic champions are more fun and interesting for the player)

  3. Reduce the duration. Make it 1/1.25/1.5 seconds, or maybe even buff it a little with 1/1.5/2 seconds. Keep Sona's identity as a late game, team fighting support and curb her presence in lane even more so that she really has to fight to get to that glory time.

  4. Remove the damage completely. You've changed the way Sona plays, she's a terrible poke support now, and Crescendo is a powerful enough ability as a team wide stun without it also being a mini-nuke.

Meanwhile...

The only thing Crescendo has going for it is its speed and therefore reliability. Though it is still not guaranteed because it is not instant.

Sunfield3 votes

I love new Sona. She is stronger overall. But well opinions differ

Emmy Cha0s3 votes

As do numbers.

Sunfield2 votes

Which are in favor of new Sona

Emmy Cha0s3 votes

This claim being based on... what? Good faith? A wing and a prayer? Your magic 8 ball?

I'll admit your statement rings true if and only if Sona can consistently break 600-700 AP every match. Assuming the enemy team won't punish you for that. You will also need to start the game with AP yellows, blues and quints just to match pre-nerf level 1 damage. I wish you good luck in that endeavor.

Sunfield1 votes

http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/2c66rv/sona_rework_comparison_old_vs_new_with_math/

Get educated, stop qq

Pika3103 votes

Show the people here a little respect and do the math yourself. If you can't even provide that small courtesy, stop insulting us by relying on others to try to make your point for you.

Sunfield1 votes

I have no courtesy to provide to people who hardly even play Sona and just jump on "rework is bad" bandwagon. I can respect people who know her and are just upset about her rework because they dont like change, but even then I require them to be respective of other opinions.

How about you stop trying to be a keyboard warrior and just accept the fact that opinions differ?

Pika3101 votes

I'm uncertain as to how 248 ranked games in season 3 alone adds up to "hardly even play Sona." You told her "Get educated", but refuse to do simple math. You demand others respect you, then fail to show any in return. I'm sorry that you see me as a "keyboard warrior", but you're exactly right that defenders of the rework are giving "opinions." The opposition has given mathematical proof, but you've been too busy using libel and hypocrisy to notice.

ratcharmer2 votes

Umm . . . the person who wrote that clearly did NOT think the numbers favor new Sona. He (she? it? they?) clearly states that the changes are ambiguous numbers-wise.

Even your own sources don't agree with you on this point.

Major Yikes2 votes

in all honesty her entire kit would feel better if she could simply reapply her buffs when they get used. this adds a lot of strength but a simple number buff would fix that. right now there's literally no point in having the auras' time extended if your entire team is buffed in one go.

Pika3102 votes

I don't see how that would be any different from her old abilities. The point is to move forwards, not go back to square one.

Having said that, you're right that a lot of simple number buffs would fix her, but that's yet to happen after almost 2 months.

Jinxed Amulet2 votes

The main issue that I have with reworked Sona was the change to her CDs. That could be because I was used to hitting each spell in quick succession of another, but now she doesn't really have the same FEEL of a Muse like she used to. I felt like I could play her just like a piano keyboard, and it felt rewarding to use each of her abilities when I needed them the most.

Now I find myself trying to play catch-up to the ADC and chasing him around because her auras are so small and last for a short time. Waiting for her CDs is unrewarding.

HigeR1 votes

You say she's not fun and I think you should specify that you, particularly you, feel this way, I myself feel quite powerful and have a lot of fun playing Sona, so I don't know where the statement that she's not fun comes from.

There are a couple things I agree with though:

1.- In lane, Q is... tricky, to use, you can try to poke with it, but it'll dmg minions... every adc player knows that a support who hits minions is annoying... you can try to enhance your adc's AA as well for him to poke or last hit, but again, Q dmg and targeting will f up last hitting. It's not a HUGE deal but as I said it's annoying.

2.- E's aura range should be bigger or enhance allies MS as you get closer to her; Sona will always be faster than everyone in the team and most of the time they simply can't catch up to her, so Sona is required to stop or move towards a champion for a second until they can reach her aura. This is also annoying, specially when running away, I don't think anyone have died doing this but it's so counter intuitive that you get frustrated from having to do it.

3.- Sona's AA range could be a bit longer (550 -> 575), this would be a buff for power chord but it'd give her enough poking power to be more of an attractive pick. As Sona you supposedly can poke because you have a haste, shield and heal, but let's be honest, if you poke like this ALL the time you'll run out of mana in seconds, more range can arguably allow you to poke by just casting E and proccing spellthief with autos not necessarily with power chords.

Wullf1 votes

little of the topic but aren't boards flooded with "main supports"? And I am speaking one of them.

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