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Address Ivern's Bushmaker

Lobsterman··23 votes·1,573 views

Ivern was in a state where his strengths needed to be addressed. Taking Athene's CDR down to 10% and making redemption a mid-late game item, combined with hitting his ability to effectively clear, shield damage output, and his base movement speed decently hard put him back in line. Which brings us to pre-7.14 Ivern, with a ridiculously long scouting ability, clocking in at 1600 range, Bushmaker !

I will never deny that the ability to throw bushes from that far away, with the ability to grab some extra vision was a disgusting part of his kit. The range was too high, but now it's not high enough to be able to scout with. Ivern is a strong counter-jungler but, with no abilities to fend for himself pre-6, it becomes too dangerous without the ability to scout even for a scuttle crab. The nerfs to the passive leave him starved for resources (which is perfectly balanced) however, without an ability to safely scout bushes and areas of the enemy jungle, counter-jungling becomes a thing of the past for an early game Ivern.

I'd like to see the range bumped up to 1200, if that's way too high then at least 1000. There are too many scenarios where you simply can't play the same way. ex: placing bushes into enemy camps from a safe distance, assisting teammates at epic monsters or in team-fights from a safe distance.

32 Comments

Máster Yi11 votes

I agree with this. We don't need another Aatrox, now do we, Riot?

Kloqdq6 votes

I do think the 1600 to 800 nerf was really harsh. Too harsh. I hope they give him back some power because that was like his one good trait left on him.

RohirrimRowan3 votes

For a nerf of this size, it's incredibly odd that Ivern didn't get his own section of the patch notes (nor did Anivia or Trundle, who also recieved similarily huge vision nerfs). I've been in threads all over about this, and it's kind of skeevy of Riot - we need more transparency in the patch notes for nerfs like this, not just an offhand comment at the bottom of the page. 90% of people I talk to in game didn't even realize any of the three vision abilities had been changed in the first place.

Kloqdq2 votes

Yeah I only noticed it because I really like Ivern. That nerf is going to massively hurt him. Trundle and Birdo are going to be hit less hard, but it still doesn't help them. Vision is really important and it feels more like a footnote mention then an actual section.

DrCyanide2 votes

They added his own section a few hours afterwards. See?

Kloqdq1 votes

Well that's good. Still doesn't help the fact Ivern got nothing in return for this massive range nerf.

Blakiepug2 votes

{quoted}

I do think the 1600 to 800 nerf was really harsh. Too harsh. I hope they give him back some power because that was like his one good trait left on him.

It was also kind of sneaky for Riot to hide this nerf down in Vision changes (?). If I played Ivern, I honestly probably never would have noticed without watching Scarra's patch rundown.

LyingOnLine4 votes

"Early counter jungling isn't safe"

And it shouldn't be.

Lobsterman5 votes

That's not the core message of the post. Your criticism falls flat as that isn't even the argument of the counter jungling section. Ivern's ability to counter jungle (combined with common skills like warding and tracking the enemy jungler) comes from his ability to slide over the wall and smite the camp away and this is difficult to do without the ability to scout as he has no natural defense of his own. Ivern invading is already more risky than most champions because of his lack of self defense, so it's less about it being "not safe" as you put it and more about giving him the ability to have an influence counter jungling by restoring his scouting potential.

DeadUnborn1 votes

thats because ivern's strenght should be having a support in the jungle so that the duo laner bot can be more damaged focused or double down on oprotecting the carry. Me already have a counter jungling support, his name is nunu

JaxMoonStealer1 votes

Off-topic but I'm pretty excited to see Nunu reworked to be more of a support jungler than he is now.

Kloqdq1 votes

Nunu = Ivern

JaxMoonStealer1 votes

Pretty much. It's mostly tanks, assassins and fighters in the jungle. More variety would be nice.

kekw jungler3 votes

Make bushes great again.

Oleandervine2 votes

https://media1.s-nbcnews.com/j/newscms/2016_18/1525596/160505-george-bush-father-son-mn-1115_b54eaaeeb9cf1c983de17a781fb64c54.nbcnews-ux-2880-1000.jpg

ItsNirra3 votes

Save the trees!

The Leo Cat2 votes

Get a bush whacker like Garen.

CrazyBigfoot282 votes

so here what riot said in the 7.14 patch notes if you did not know "We're aware this has ramifications beyond Ivern's ability to scout, and if the change results in a larger power-down than expected (this is meant to hit Ivern's utility and safety) we'll follow up accordingly. "

Lobsterman1 votes

This post was made in an attempt to help the balance team understand a player's perspective.

IcyPepper2 votes

ex: placing bushes into enemy camps from a safe distance, assisting teammates at epic monsters or in team-fights from a safe distance.

Whether or not he deserves it, a range nerf tends to do that.

DeadUnborn2 votes

thats because ivern's counter jungling early game was nuts. He could steal a buff almost garanteed

Kloqdq1 votes

Most people that played against or as Ivern at length could easily learn the typical patterns and punish Ivern hard if they are smart. Due to Ivern's weak early game, most junglers can use and abuse him if they caught him out. One way to really bone Ivern is start the opposite side you would normally start (Where bot lane would leash for you). He'll normally mark his camps and then go for the invade as people are now in lanes and it's safer. If he goes over to steal he'll either

A) Get caught out and die; or B) Waste his time and gain nothing.

With all the nerfs to him, this just means his only good thing he has early is even weaker.

DeadUnborn1 votes

Yeah well, maybe he shouldn´t have an early strong game

http://champion.gg/champion/Ivern/Jungle

he has a 52% win rate currently and his win rate scales by game time, falling mid game but scaling back up. If these nerfs were to hit him hard then just buff ivern mid game and let him be a scaling support champ.

Just like when I argue Yasuo players: a champion having his early game nerfed is not necesarilly bad if the champ scales up

Kloqdq1 votes

I am not saying he should have a strong early. In fact, I would say it's his weakest point once people know how to deal with him. Ivern has very little survivability and damage for all his supporting tools. I do agree he should be a scaling support, but he still needs a decent early game to actual be viable, since Jungle is pretty much determined by your early game.

Scaling junglers are almost always in a rough spot by design. Lee and Elise are so strong because they have a heavy effect on the early game. Ivern's invade was probably his most powerful tool to deal with these people so when they just nerfed his vision tool and gave him nothing in return, it sort of hurts him when he was already down.

RookPusher1 votes

Am I reading this right that the bushes act like wards? I know this is semi-off topic but this is mindblowing to me.

Lobsterman15 votes

Only for a few seconds yes.

RookPusher6 votes

I wish I could hug you

arans1 votes

Well, that's what happens when a bunch of silver retards look at winrate and scream on the forums for nerfs. You have things like Lee Sin and Elise being picked far more than he was. But hey those numbers man.

Karn Bishop1 votes

You can't have both safe scouting methods AND counter jungling that cannot be challenged, it always baffled me that he even had both though i would have preferred them making just counter jungling challengable by increasing the total time it takes to channel mark any camps on the hostile side of the jungle.

in short rather then the change they made i would have much rather preferred this, ivern channels for 2.5 seconds on allied side of map, this channel time increases to 14-7 seconds scaling down with level when targetting hostile side camps and is unaffected by any CDR.

Kloqdq1 votes

It can easily be challenged. It's like Shaco. They have similar invade patterns expect Ivern is weaker early.

Also having to channel for 14 seconds would make him the worse jungler in the game.

Karn Bishop1 votes

I can at least smite contest a camp when shaco attempts it and he also needs good setup in order to pull it off and you rarely see shaco's try it vs most champions because the risk is almost never worth it for them vs ganking a lane.

So while shaco can do an early buff steal he has the potential to to be outsmited or outdueled if you run into him in the middle of clearing it where as ivern needs only the smallest of channels and a single smite charge and then likely be gone before your even in range to contest due to how short that channel is, heck even if you catch him he just throws his gap closer onto scuttle and flys away to safety.

Also i said 14-7 seconds and if making him have a reasonable challenge time ONLY WHEN IN ENEMY JUNGLE makes him the worst jungler in the game then i'd argue he was never a healthy champion to begin with if thats the only reason he is viable.

Also to end this it was considered extremely unhealthy when nunu could damn near instant clear any and all camps and was removed and i firmly believe the same thing is true of iverns ridiculously unchallenged smite mechanic.

Kloqdq1 votes

Ivern has to sit still for 2 seconds. If he is touched in the slightest way he will stop his channel. So many junglers fail to realize that ivern just needs to be hit and his invade is completely fucked. Do you realize how long 14 seconds is? By the time he fully channels a good jungler could take everyone of his camps on the other side of the map. He would have no reason to ever step foot in the enemy jungle because he has no gain. Especially when you put how long the mark needs to set up.

Ivern's instant clear is gated by his smite. If he doesn't have that, he cannot instant clear at all. You have almost never played either I assume. Ivern is risking a lot on his invade if he goes against a good jungler. His invade is very easy to see coming and with proper reactions, you can almost always neat first blood or set him behind greatly. Shaco arguably has a better invade because he always has the edge early game. Between boxes, his ignite, his early game damage and survivability, he can win against almost any jungler the first 3 levels. Ivern cannot fight you if he runs into. He will always run or just waste your time.

I don't see any reason to keep nerfing Ivern's clear at this point when it is already pretty weak. People are over estimating Ivern. At this point he is only strong because of Daisy, arguably where most of his power budget is, and support items. Other than that, he just falls flat. He was strong but a lot of his power is being reduced day by day at this point.

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