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Change Tier 2 Cunning

Delling··15 votes·1,731 views

Sorry if this has been raised ad nauseum elsewhere but I've had a search of the discussions and haven't found it:

Tier 2 Cunning is crap.

I'm a support player but I've never taken biscuit and rarely bought pots.

As a support player, I also won't get jungle buffs until late game if at all.

As a support player, I genuinely NEED Bandit as do basically all supports.

So, to get Bandit which is THE support mastery, I HAVE TO take either extended jungle buff duration or biscuits.

Let's talk about biscuits then: there are no biscuits any more b/c you have to spend 50 g on health pots or get a flask. I've toyed with going Corrupting Flask but the item feels entirely underwhelming on support (maybe it's better elsewhere?). To clarify, saying there are no biscuits any more is to say: increasing the cost of accessing the mana from this mastery by making health potions biscuits but adding 15g is a way of shifting the cost of buying early game wards into feeding a mastery... a mastery that only helps in the early game--but, hey, we're supports, so we should shut up and take it. (I know the gold cost change has more to do with top lane, but that doesn't change how it coupled with the awful Tier 2 Cunning "choices" sucks for supports. And as I've said: never been a fan of your biscuits (my homemade ones are lovely tho').) So, Riot, you've said that the masteries are expandable: give us a third tier 2 Cunning option.

It needs to be support oriented. It could be functionally mage oriented as well. Something like bonus MP and/or MPregen. Something that's less safe than biscuit b/c it has less effective HPregen but opens paths to be more aggressive because you have more mana or mana regen. (Bonus MP could help out Ryze who lost out on having unique interactions with the mastery system with these changes, though maybe that was an intentional design decision--in which case you could still give the rest of us some more MPregen. (Ryze ain't even bovvered tho' so it doesn't really matter for him.))

Even a mastery that gave % bonus TOTAL MPregen could help out a lot by making mana font and MPregen runes stronger (as I understand it (I haven't run the numbers, "it's commonly held that...", and since I've been using MPregen runes it seems that) %MPregen on items doesn't interact with runes) though again there, that is potentially too niche as as far as I know few people run MPregen runes any more.

26 Comments

LegendaryLemur5 votes

This isn't exclusive to support. Any champion that isn't mana hungry won't get much use out of either tier 2 cunning mastery (they don't need biscuits and won't be taking blue).

I agree that we need a third option at this tier.

LegendaryLemur4 votes

Just to elaborate a bit, if we compare the other two trees, the second tier on each tree offers a far more widely useful option.

In ferocity, you have feast which every champion will make use of (apart from relic-shield-less supports who are probably not in ferocity anyhow) and in resolve you have explorer which provides decent utility or tough skin, either of which will be at least somewhat useful throughout the game.

Compare cunning tier 2 which gives you literally nothing if you never buy a potion or take a buff (not incredibly uncommon).

Sire Hippington2 votes

i don't like the ferrocity choice. As a 'mage' support, i often owuld want some points into that tree, but i don't really like double-edged sword, makeing my self even more squishy than i already am doesn't seem great, and feast is pretty pointless as support

Partholonian1 votes

Yeah, this is what I was going to say too. Several caster supports are damage oriented enough that they're either going Deathfire outright, or going Thunderlord and want to put the other 12 points into Ferocity to back it up. Annie Zyra Zilean for example. I think that's more common than never using a potion all game (although you certainly could use few enough that you'd want something else more, if there was something else).

All of the tier 2 options are potentially useful to someone, but I definitely think there are situations where someone will want to be 12-18 points in a tree and not have significant use for either of the current tier 2s. Maybe except resolve, because it really does have more generally applicable t2s.

MegaManYYZ4 votes

i'm pretty sure the majority of people usually start with one of the support items and 3 pots/biscuits... and those 3 pots/biscuits are very useful in lane.

Delling4 votes

Just because the majority of people start that way doesn't mean masteries should dictate that they either play that way or waste a mastery point. What's wrong with having a mastery for people who don't want to use pots?

Also, I'm not saying "get rid of it". I'm saying "give us another option".

MegaManYYZ4 votes

then go into a different tree. there are options, just not ones that you like.

Delling6 votes

But I'm playing support... so you're suggesting I forego Bandit... as a support... I think that's a pretty extreme position to take.

I want Windcaller's. I want Bandit. Your response is to literally ignore the problem and tell me to go away.

MegaManYYZ6 votes

and support usually uses potions as well! I'm just saying there are options, just not ones that you like.

Delling3 votes

You're ignoring what I'm saying. I'm saying "I want, even feel required to have, higher tier things in this utility tree, but I don't like having to pay for something I don't use or will get minimal use out of".

Saying "support usually use potions as well" ignores the fact that I can't have Windcaller's or Bandit without going through either jungle buffs or secret stash. Fine: I don't use potions. That shouldn't lock me out of being a support: people don't have to play a game by YOUR script.

There are NOT other options for getting those: to get them I have to put a point into Tier 2.

What? Do you think I don't go 18/12? I already put points in the other trees. As does everyone else over level 18.

You're insisting other options exist when they don't (you've said it twice now). The entire stated problem is that if you want Bandit you have to take one or the other of these two things I feel under-serve the way I play and have played support.

Why are you opposed to having a third option?

MegaManYYZ4 votes

there are literally other options to go other than secret stash, you just don't like the other options! why don't you understand that? you can go into resolve or ferocity, you can go 6/6/18 or 7/5/18 or etc.

it's a waste of ONE WHOLE mastery point to get to other tiers you want to access.

just because a SMALL minority doesn't use potions, doesn't mean they need to make a completely different mastery just for you. that's some entitlement for you.

Delling1 votes

{quoted}

there are literally other options to go other than secret stash, you just don't like the other options! why don't you understand that? you can go into resolve or ferocity, you can go 6/6/18 or 7/5/18 or etc.

it's a waste of ONE WHOLE mastery point to get to other tiers you want to access.

just because a SMALL minority doesn't use potions, doesn't mean they need to make a completely different mastery just for you. that's some entitlement for you.

I've stated my problem precisely: want Bandit, have to take masteries I don't want or get any use out of to get there. You keep ignoring what I've said.

It's not entitlement to chime in and say "hey, there's this thing I'd like you to change" when that is literally what the developers have asked us to do.

leaguecraft.com/news/-dev-blog-keystone-masteries-in-the-2016-season-14743.xhtml

Lastly, a final awesome thing about this new system is that it’s expandable! Remember how the old trees could have up to 4 points per row? Yeah, well we didn’t get rid of that functionality. **Things look sparse now but that’s been done intentionally so we can add to the system should the need or want arise further into new season. This is where your feedback comes in. **Think there’s no tier 2 keystones for tanky guys who want a little offense on the side? Let us know, we could add that!

All of your suggested "other options" ignore the problem as stated and hence are not "other options". You show me a mastery page that has a point in Bandit and in neither Secret Stash nor Runic Mastery, then I'll believe you.

Glamazon6 votes

Masteries are give and take. You can't have the ideal of every point. If you don't like cunning go into another. I'm sorry you under appreciate hp pots. #silver

burritomomo3 votes

ive always taken biscuits as a support, it really helps. Supports aren't really there for "damage". But ay im a bard main Bard so idk

Delling2 votes

I recognize that supports "aren't there for damage" but mana regen would be better suited to supports who already have sustain in their kit (Soraka, Sona, Nami) and who have a poke-play pattern, again Soraka, Sona, Nami. Which isn't to say that it wouldn't ALSO be good on supports who have only one of those.

It could even be better for Bard given his shrines and Q but that would have to be adjusted for how much you roam. (I've only toyed with Bard when he's free, so I don't really know.)

Partholonian1 votes

There's already mana regen in cunning though, isn't there? You don't want too many things in the same tree that do the same thing, they will either be ridiculous if stacked, or people will just math out which one is better and take that.

Delling1 votes

{quoted}

There's already mana regen in cunning though, isn't there? You don't want too many things in the same tree that do the same thing, they will either be ridiculous if stacked, or people will just math out which one is better and take that.

That's a fair point. Mana regen was largely off the top of my head. It fit with tier 2 which from a support/mage perspective offers two ways of getting mana: extended blue buff or biscuits.

Maybe we could get the Expose Weakness mastery back (or a re-tuned version of it). Just another suggestion. Any more generally useful mastery that supports could feasibly use would solve the issue of Bandit being gated by the current tier 2 options.

BraveryBeyond2 votes

While I can understand your plea, I think it's a matter of mentality rather than that masteries need to be added. Masteries, in my mind, have never been about champion optimization, they've been about play optimization. As per your example, if you want to be an aggressive support, you should be taking points in the Ferocity branch and setting up a kill lane. The choice of "wasting a point" is one you need to consider heavily in this new meta. If you want the masteries further down the cunning tree, you'll need to make tough choices. The fact that you're having such gut wrenching indecision is a good thing. It means the talents are a choice rather than a given build path. You should look at how you play and determine if Cunning is right for you at all tiers and then resolve if Cunning is worth your investment or if you should go elsewhere in Ferocity and Resolve.

The issue you're encountering seems to simply be a choice issue. If you go bandit, you don't need a GP item and will probably get pots. If you go GP item, pots help you stay in lane to benefit from your GP item. If you double down, well, you've "wasted" a mastery, or rather made it more of a niche situation. It's a choice in style that has checks and balances.

Delling2 votes

Depending on the support I'm playing I do put points into Ferocity. I don't take a Ferocity keystone unless as you say I'm playing a kill lane (which I rarely do anyway) and instead get Windcaller's. (We can all stop dithering over 12/18/0 or 18/12/0 or the likely even more common 0/18/12 now: it's an entirely moot point to the issue of tier-2 being required to get Bandit.)

Riot have said that they are open to adding to the masteries, and others have complained about this same problem (the specific case was a LeBlanc player, so not exactly related to what I'm talking about as a support). Riot have stated they intend to flesh out the trees because some classes of champion are under-served (http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/VPBE), even suggesting starting with a new tier-1 Cunning mastery. So, asking for a change to Tier-2 is moreso just trying to say to developers "Hey, look here. Here is something you should also consider changing."

As an aside, I disagree that Bandit is strong enough to forego a GP item in general. Most supports likely take both. And as I've specifically mentioned supports with a poke play pattern, giving up Bandit+GP for them is foregoing a significant amount of gold (since they likely go coin or spellthief's which stack with Bandit), so I also doubt such supports would forego Bandit and instead just take a point in tier 2.

elon wątroba2 votes

I would get back mastery, which granted you increased exp near higher leveled teammates but with smaller number, because it's just tier 2.

Weathered2 votes

When asked about potential changes to the cunning mastery tree, Meddler noted: "Quote: Do you have any ideas on how to make the cunning tree more appealing to assassins/mages when compared to the ferocity tree ? We'll be fleshing out the Tier 1 and Tier 2 keystones in Cunning, which should help somewhat there. For some champions though Ferocity's probably always going to be more appealing (DoT mages especially will be really strongly drawn to DFT). Assassins by contrast are meant to be well served by the Cunning tree, so if they're not getting decent performance from it we might need to make the Tier 3 keystones a bit stronger for them."

http://www.surrenderat20.net/2015/11/red-post-collection-november-17th.html

Hope that answers

Delling1 votes

I'm not sure... mostly his mix of the terms "keystone" (which I associate with the final tier) and tier (which I take to basically be row) is a bit confusing. If he really does mean the top two rows, then that's actually great and would answer the question. :) Thanks for posting that.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

I do believe the masteries should be reworked/replaced. The Ferocity tree is for ADC's, Yi, Trynd, and Yas. The Cunning page is for Assassins, Junglers, Supports, and Mages (both utility and burst). The Resolve tree is for tanks.

I feel like they crammed too many roles into the Cunning tree...

After all, having 3 completely different keystones instead of for a similar purpose keystones had to do with it.

Kasyrgan1 votes

A lot of mages and supps got increased mana regen in the pre-season to compensate for the lack of mana pots and flask. Biscuits are good for almost all ap champs. I am a supp main and I always buy biscuits to help with my aggressive play-style. Just because some champs don't need the extra sustain doesn't mean that the health/mana regen that comes from biscuits is worthless.

Just asking, if you don't like to go with pots then what do you take to lane? Do you get a supp item and leave base with the 150 gold?

Delling1 votes

{quoted}

A lot of mages and supps got increased mana regen in the pre-season to compensate for the lack of mana pots and flask. Biscuits are good for almost all ap champs. I am a supp main and I always buy biscuits to help with my aggressive play-style. Just because some champs don't need the extra sustain doesn't mean that the health/mana regen that comes from biscuits is worthless.

Just asking, if you don't like to go with pots then what do you take to lane? Do you get a supp item and leave base with the 150 gold?

At the moment I go support + flask, into corrupting flask, mostly to try to get some use out of this mastery. I'm considering just going support +charm instead. I don't just go to lane with 150 gold.

I was a bit tongue-in-cheek commenting on the biscuits. I don't think they are worthless. I don't see myself committing enough gold to potions to make it worthwhile though and I don't and haven't used them. It wasn't a problem before because there were plenty of options in the utility tree.

LankPants1 votes

I think that they should replace Runic Affinity with a slightly modified Spellblade

Something like 'your autos deal 2.65+0.35/level + (0.0275+0.0025/levelxAP)'. In this form it would be a mastery that would be optimal for mages but also good on most ranged supports.

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