Shaco + Traps

Silentlightz·Jun 1, 2017·2 votes·568 views

I am currently very confused, I tried for a long while to accept the changes but I don't think I can handle them without an answer anymore. Shaco received changes to his entire kit but I want to focus on the ** Jack in a Box** It was removed that he could stack his boxes and now to get easier kills with the stack of boxes is impossible. While currently we have Maokai who can toss saplings and the only option is to flash away or if you have a mobile champ you can use your mobility to escape. While shaco, jhin etc with their traps there is a solid counter, to use a control ward and disable them. There are still champions like Maokai that you can stack his saplings and get an instant kill, so really what was the purpose in removing the stacking?
[zombie-brand-clap]

18 Comments

crzymdscntstJun 1, 20172 votes

Nests just aren't fun since they lack a certain amount of counterplay and the separation allows targeting of specific traps.

On the other hand, the best setup for Shaco's traps has been a bit spaced anyways or scatterplotted all over the place, so when one fear runs out, the next hit the target just as the first ends. It's difficult to get it to work quite right though so reliability is definitely a thing on it's effectiveness.

HalcyonDwellerJun 1, 20172 votes

Translation:

Shaco got something unbalanced / abusable nerfed out of his kit, but other champions have similarly abusable mechanics.

Ergo we should revert Shaco and INCREASE the number of champions with unbalanced and abusable mechanics.

That doesn't seem right....

SilentlightzJun 1, 20172 votes

nononononono god no lol and if you simply ward when a shaco is in the game you can save lives

HalcyonDwellerJun 1, 20171 votes

But that's pretty much what your argument sounded like.

"Shaco lost power -> other champions with similar mechanics didn't -> bring shaco's abusable and anti-fun mechanics back."

Personally I'd rather they fix Maokai too rather than just add to the number of frustrating and abusable mechanics that people can use on their opponents.

SilentlightzJun 1, 20171 votes

I can be fine if lots of them were fixed really tho it seemed like they only "fixed" shaco

HalcyonDwellerJun 1, 20171 votes

Shaco has higher levels of trickery and thus more player frustration when he abuses a mechanic to kill them.

Also Shaco's problems were around for much longer than the Maokai rework has been around. And Riot is already nerfing it. Give it time, they will balance the others. That's still no excuse to argue that Shaco should be left with a broken mechanic that frustrates opponents.

Shaco has higher player frustration and has been around longer to draw attention to his problems.

SilentlightzJun 1, 20171 votes

I agree it used to frustrate people including me when shaco's did it, and I agree it had been around for a while. But many people can say that a mechanic is broken and anti-fun, people have been saying that about fiddles entire kit for a while just point and click, but what makes them act on it? Also jhin can pile traps onto one another and stun and you are obliterated, and zyra's plants etc..

HalcyonDwellerJun 1, 20171 votes

{quoted}

But many people can say that a mechanic is broken and anti-fun, people have been saying that about fiddles entire kit for a while just point and click, but what makes them act on it?

Wait wut....? I've never once in my life heard anybody complain about fiddlesticks.

I don't understand the point of this comment. Are you still arguing that "other things are broken, thus it should be ok for shaco boxes to be broken" ???

SilentlightzJun 2, 20171 votes

1 yes people have complained, and even if you haven't heard a complaint about fiddles specifically I know you have heard one about any other champ, unless you stay blind to complaints. 2 no I am not saying shaco boxes should be stackable, I am simply asking why they haven't fixed others. Using shaco as an example of 1 "fixed" and giving examples of others they stay blind to.

HalcyonDwellerJun 2, 20171 votes

The phrasing of your original post seemed to be arguing the other way, and complaining that Shaco lost power. Hence why I questioned you on it. See quotes below. I do not blind myself to complaints, I was simply surprised by your choice of example. Regardless... every champion is different, and comparing a single ability from each in a vacuum is erroneous from the start. They function differently, and they have different purposes, scalings, and mechanics.

{quoted}

I am currently very confused, I tried for a long while to accept the changes but I don't think I can handle them without an answer anymore. Shaco received changes to his entire kit but I want to focus on the ** Jack in a Box** It was removed that he could stack his boxes and now to get easier kills with the stack of boxes is impossible.

This whole part is complaining about shaco losing power from the abusable mechanic getting removed.

While currently we have Maokai who can toss saplings and the only option is to flash away or if you have a mobile champ you can use your mobility to escape. While shaco, jhin etc with their traps there is a solid counter, to use a control ward and disable them. There are still champions like Maokai that you can stack his saplings and get an instant kill, so really what was the purpose in removing the stacking?

This part compares Shaco to others, and then questions the purpose and validity of fixing Shaco in the first place.

I am simply asking why they haven't fixed others. Using shaco as an example of 1 "fixed" and giving examples of others they stay blind to.

I do not believe you. If you wanted the others to be changed to prevent stacking you would have constructed your argument differently. Instead the main subject of the post is Shaco, and his lost power. I highly doubt you had "balancing the others" in mind when you wrote the original post.

137434Jun 1, 20171 votes

Maokai's saplings also no longer stack on top of each other, it is just they are mobile so it is not as big of a deal.

SilentlightzJun 1, 20172 votes

but they scale off of bonus move speed so it is very rarely you can outrun them [zombie-brand-mindblown]

En2R9ZDF8yJun 5, 20171 votes

Tbf though they are also nerfing maokai saplings (may have already done this not positive).

Valor BotJun 1, 20171 votes

If I had to venture a guess as to why it's ok on Maokai but not on Shaco, I'd say it's because the mechanic is probably healthier on an initiating tank than a stealth assassin. Not to mention Maokai's traps will ideally only deal significant damage if he builds AP rather than stacking defenses.

SilentlightzJun 1, 20171 votes

I agree but at the same time shaco was used in top and as support not only as an "assassin" just sayin

Valor BotJun 1, 20171 votes

Doesn't Shaco function as an assassin in both the top and support positions though? Actually the fact he can do well in those roles might have also contributed to the removal of his trap stacking; champions have to balanced around all positions not just their main ones.

SilentlightzJun 1, 20172 votes

I can see that (thinking intensifies) lol

EcchiOtakuTMJun 5, 20171 votes

Honestly, the change to prevent stacking boxing was a buff to non-support imo.

Stacking boxes made it hard to chain CC someone unlike now where they give you an adding boost to chain fear with how spread out they are now. Albeit before you could do that yourself, I like the auto setup of it now esp since I can click direction on a box but alittle off in the direction I want the next box to be so when they go that way they get feared again precisely.

But you can pretty much ignore this if you want, since as I said you could do this yourself before still.

On a side note, I do think stacking invisible traps was more problematic than stacking visible traps. Esp after the nerf where you have to be tank in order for the sapling's duration to raise. (Which as a tank I am happy)

Now about the health of the mechanic, I think the other issue is unlike all the other traps, shaco's has an actually hard CC tied to it You can run away as you said but you'll still take a large chunk of damage which the mobile shaco can finish off as a given if he chooses to. Maokai does have a way to chase but he lacks the chase damage shaco has. (I'm going off AD shaco, AP shaco would most likely chunk enemies with one box, kill with more than 2 and control an entire zone and even if they tried to pursue, he has mobility to get away unlike maokai.)