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Sona Kit feels outdated

Ahrian··2 votes·851 views

I don't really know why but more time passes more Sona feels boring. Her kit really asks the player to do nothing more than having a good timing/positioning. Wouldn't be better to have more complex mechanics? Like having to play around skills sequence so that you make the player feel like he is writing his own score, I mean nothing too complex but for example by having a sequence Q-E-W you would have a different effect than W-E-Q. For the other spells i would make them skill shots with AoE effects like casting a sound wave in a specific direction and make them resonate with each other, like some kind of interaction if you cast a Q over a W. For example we could have Q being a AoE poke damage and within it's trajectory we would have an area that will buff our aa damage like her Q passive does to champ close by.

I don't think that such old fashioned kit should exist within the new league, she is, in gameplay, really outdated compared to all the other supports.

This is what i think about Sona right now:

  1. I feel like Sona needs some kind of rework;
  2. Her kit atm is really boring and outdated;
  3. You don't really control her spells or dmg output except for her ulti and empowered Auto.

Btw I really love Sona, she is my most played champ and she was my way to go bot in season 5. But now i don't really think that wasting time on her is worth because what you can do with Sona after 100s of games is the same someone with just 10s can do.

26 Comments

Daedric Etwahl4 votes

I think a full scale rework is something to be cautious about, but at the same time being real she does require a bit more attention and love. I'm just cautious because I would probably fall out of League if they turned Sona into something I hate, kit-wise, or character-wise, it would break my heart (character-wise moreso.)

I definitely don't think she needs a fullscale VGU like Taric, she actually looks pretty alright compared to some other champs. Her animations are limited, but I wouldn't say outdated, anymore than champs like Caitlyn are "outdated"

If they do rework her and make her spells into skillshots, I personally really hope they let her keep the ability to keep moving when casting them. Vel'Koz W already does this, I imagine it could work similarly.

The most important thing about Sona to me, though, is the ability to support your team by giving them a little of a lot of things. She's not the best healer, nor is she great at peel, and compared to Mage supports she has less damage, but she brings it all to the table and while a lot of it is weak early, she scales quite well.

To be honest, I really like that mixed with the fact that she scales. I really, really like the identity of that combo. But her kit could definitely use some love, I feel. More skill expression added to her Q, however they would, would be a good first step, I think.

EDIT: I forgot to mention. Despite Sona being my starter champ 2 years ago when I began playing League, she's still very fun to me, the most fun thing League has to consistently offer me right now (though at the moment we have hit a small snag with the overnerfs for a bit, but hopefully Riot addresses that)

RedCyclone4 votes

She feels like crap now, mainly due to the aggressive beating with the nerf bat

I would not object to a rework what does improve her skill expression, the intention for the rework in the first place just does not work so well for a support, having a absolutely awful earlygame to scale into a support monster lategame is very much pointless, especially now they have taken away her early tools that allowed her to scale and that the average game length doesn't even typically allow you to get to your powerspikes

The simple thing would be to revert the mana nerf from last patch and Sona will probably be back on her "generalist support who is very good in solo queue but is very easily counterable" trend like she has been for the last 2 years

Daedric Etwahl1 votes

Personally I wouldn't mind the "is weaker than most other supports early, but is stronger later" dynamic if they could properly balance the two. Right after the release of the mini rework her lategame was too strong and came too fast, if I remember correctly, and right now her earlygame is way, way too weak. A proper balance could lead to a support with a bit more of a niche compared to the others. Not quite as good early game (better than now, obviously) but will take off to some extent later (perhaps weaker than currently, if necessary to balance a serviceable early game)

That's just my thoughts. I've personally grown to very much like being able to scale for my team.

EpicSaxGandalf1 votes

personally aside from a complete rework i would love to see her changed so her powerspike is not as impactful late but hits at 11 instead of 16, make her a midgame teamfight support instead of a lategame teamfight support and make her early game not as shit as it is currently.This kind of change would make her feel fine until a proper rework is in place. I just hate the idea of lategame support who is also item reliant, doesn't mesh well.

Rabblerouser2 votes

I think it's more that you've outgrown her. Champs like Sona are needed for lower-skill players, in my opinion, at least.

chipndip14 votes

{quoted}

I think it's more that you've outgrown her. Champs like Sona are needed for lower-skill players, in my opinion, at least.

Meanwhile Janna has plenty of skill expression for higher-tier players on her Q and R while being simple to play for new players on W and E. Her kit also constantly floats her back up to the top of the stats pages and LCS play rates regardless of nerfs or downgrades.

There's a difference between "Beginner friendly" and "We're not even trying".

D357R0Y3R1 votes

{quoted}

There's a difference between "Beginner friendly" and "We're not even trying".

^ i admire your wisdom my friend!

404BrainNotFound2 votes

she could use a small gameplay update like xin.

shes a champion who really doesn't do anything fun outside of her ult. I say besides her Q and her Ult there's literally nothing interesting about her.

chipndip12 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bot Lane Rammus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=p8IlHaAa,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-12-19T17:05:12.577+0000)

she could use a small gameplay update like xin.

shes a champion who really doesn't do anything fun outside of her ult. I say besides her Q and her Ult there's literally nothing interesting about her.

The small game play update is what got us in this mess to begin with. She needs more than a small update, and people need to stop saying she needs just a small update.

Daedric Etwahl1 votes

She needs more than a small update, but she doesn't quite need a full rework. Really the last mini update was mostly fiddling and adding and removing numbers. An update bigger than that, but not to the size of a full rework, could definitely suffice. She just feels bad right now because Riot's been trigger happy with the nerfs.

(Then again it's likely you and I have different opinions on what a rework is, and what counts as big or small)

chipndip14 votes

[{quoted}](name=Daedric Etwahl,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=p8IlHaAa,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2017-12-19T18:04:21.446+0000)

She needs more than a small update, but she doesn't quite need a full rework. She just feels bad right now because Riot's been trigger happy with the nerfs.

Here's the thing: Are you fine going in a loop or do you actually want a better, more stable, and more rewarding Sona?

Like, I had this shit literally spelled out to me by Meddler two years ago. HER KIT ISN'T GOING TO WORK THIS WAY. Like, I just don't understand why everyone's so attached to a kit that plays itself for 60% of the actions you can possibly take on it (out of 4 buttons and right-clicking, 3 buttons automatically target for you). This shit is LONG due for an overhaul. I just don't get it.

Daedric Etwahl1 votes

Yeah, some people really like her. I'm not sure why you seem to take such personal offense to that. The idea of a character class that supports her allies in so many ways just is perfect for what I want out of a character. I'm cautious about larger scale reworks or, god forbid, a full VGU because I don't want Riot to take that away. As I said in the edit, the last mini update (which I actually like, whether you think I'm wrong or not) was pretty small, even by small rework standards I might say. None of her skills got functionally changed in their actives, really it was just her ult passive. Changing how the actives work, like adding more expression to her Q, and adding the ability for hard CC perhaps on her E somehow would be a good first step, I believe. It would be more than fiddling with numbers.

Moreover, if possible I would love if Sona's identity were able to still keep the "supports her entire team in a myriad of different ways" and "scales well into the lategame" points she currently has. If only one can be kept, I would want the former. I don't mind if she's a little weaker than most other supports in exchange for that (right now is obviously too much, but that's just because Riot got way too trigger happy with nerfs, both direct and indirect) Perhaps adding a form of hard CC, even if just single target, to her pre-6 kit would be another good step in the right direction.

If you don't like it, that's fine. You don't have to like it and you can desire change, I would not try to stop you. But just because someone actually likes what we have doesn't mean they're wrong.

chipndip11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Daedric Etwahl,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=p8IlHaAa,comment-id=00020000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-19T18:26:23.760+0000)

Yeah, some people really like her. I'm not sure why you seem to take such personal offense to that. The idea of a character class that supports her allies in so many ways just is perfect for what I want out of a character. I'm cautious about larger scale reworks or, god forbid, a full VGU because I don't want Riot to take that away. As I said in the edit, the last mini update (which I actually like, whether you think I'm wrong or not) was pretty small, even by small rework standards I might say. None of her skills got functionally changed in their actives, really it was just her ult passive. Changing how the actives work, like adding more expression to her Q, and adding the ability for hard CC perhaps on her E somehow would be a good first step, I believe. It would be more than fiddling with numbers.

You don't have to be hot-n-cold about it. Just say "I like her exactly the way she is". That middle-of-the-road attitude gets no one anywhere.

Moreover, if possible I would love if Sona's identity were able to still keep the "supports her entire team in a myriad of different ways" and "scales well into the lategame" points she currently has. If only one can be kept, I would want the former. I don't mind if she's a little weaker than most other supports in exchange for that (right now is obviously too much, but that's just because Riot got way too trigger happy with nerfs, both direct and indirect) Perhaps adding a form of hard CC, even if just single target, to her pre-6 kit would be another good step in the right direction.

The only reason you see things this way is because you don't see the forest through the trees. During season 7, Sona was a monster for low elo, even though her high elo stats were "balanced". Even now, her low elo stats are "ok", but generally speaking her high elo stats are fucking abysmal. Unlike most other champs, Sona's kit just crushes beginners too hard when it's actually worth growing with and mastering, and it's because literally everything she does doesn't miss.

If you don't like it, that's fine. You don't have to like it and you can desire change, I would not try to stop you. But just because someone actually likes what we have doesn't mean they're wrong.

The point is that we're going to keep being hard-knocked out of the sky like this if the cause of the problem still persists. Being shit-tier early and becoming insane scaling monsters is how Riot deals with champs they don't want to actually balance, and they reworked Sona into being one of them. See the big picture and you'll see why I'm upset with it.

Like, Meddler himself, long story short, told me "She feels weak and we can't do anything about it pretty much because she has no skill shots and everything she does doesn't miss", and somehow I'M the bad guy trying to offer the solution to other people that like the champ?

Daedric Etwahl1 votes

{quoted}

You don't have to be hot-n-cold about it. Just say "I like her exactly the way she is". That middle-of-the-road attitude gets no one anywhere.

But it's not black and white though? I do like her right now, but she definitely could use a little love.

Perhaps I am a little biased, but that happens, I do try my best to see the other side of things. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with scaling, even on support. Most supports are at their best early, so it definitely would not hurt to have one function a little weaker early compared to other supports, but then becomes stronger than them for her team as the game goes on. Problem is that the way it's balanced now is far too lopsided, especially after the overnerfing.

If the problem is that she doesn't have skillshots, then give her a small rework where she has some. And maybe give ehr some form of hard CC pre-6. Boom, thats a good first two steps right there!

chipndip11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Daedric Etwahl,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=p8IlHaAa,comment-id=0002000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-19T19:24:38.297+0000)

But it's not black and white though? I do like her right now, but she definitely could use a little love.

So...buffs? You know Riot doesn't just buff Sona. I can't remember a time they buffed her since I started this game. People don't get that some champs don't just get "some love" just based on what they do. Teemo doesn't just get "some love" whether he needs it or not because everyone hates his kit. Once again, he just bullies the hell out of people early with unavoidable attacks...difference is that he falls off instead of scaling in.

Perhaps I am a little biased, but that happens, I do try my best to see the other side of things. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with scaling, even on support. Most supports are at their best early, so it definitely would not hurt to have one function a little weaker early compared to other supports, but then becomes stronger than them for her team as the game goes on. Problem is that the way it's balanced now is far too lopsided, especially after the overnerfing.

Rakan : Well designed late game support.

Taric : Well designed late game support.

Janna : Retooled to be more late game...kind of a "do-it-all" on the defensive spectrum, but it's not the worst.

Sona : Fucking awful.

Why? Well, I'd have to make a long post to fully flesh that point out, which I probably will in a few hours.

Daedric Etwahl1 votes

Where did I say buffs? Don't put words in my mouth to further your own argument.

Also I'd argue on Rakan being well-designed but that's just my opinion.

What I mean by giving Sona love is to take the time and give her the attention and work she needs and deserves.

Again, Sona's kit is binary, but again, the idea of a lategame-oriented support can definitely work, as seen with Taric is a good close example, since he's a lot like Sona, but a Warden/Enchanter mix instead of a straight enchanter.

chipndip11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Daedric Etwahl,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=p8IlHaAa,comment-id=000200000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-19T20:31:55.872+0000)

Where did I say buffs? Don't put words in my mouth to further your own argument.

What else does "a little love" mean? "Not too much tampering. Just a nudge." That literally was the approach of the last mini-rework. If Riot's gonna do that again, then they shouldn't bother at all.

Also I'd argue on Rakan being well-designed but that's just my opinion.

Clear skill expression. Clear difficulty curve. Hasn't been oppressive to solo queue yet. Brings something new to the support role (mobility-based game play). He's clearly a well designed champ.

What I mean by giving Sona love is to take the time and give her the attention and work she needs and deserves.

Again, Sona's kit is binary, but again, the idea of a lategame-oriented support can definitely work, as seen with Taric is a good close example, since he's a lot like Sona, but a Warden/Enchanter mix instead of a straight enchanter.

No one's saying she shouldn't scale. My entire point is that Sona's so auto-pilot that she's a balancing nightmare. If she's actually designed into that space well, that's one thing. Riot decided to shoe-horn her into that space through mindless spamming. THAT'S my issue. Taric is a scaling support, but without good timing and coordination, you'll CLEARLY see the difference between a main and a novice. Sona lacks this in her entirety, save "positioning", which every champ in the game does.

Daedric Etwahl1 votes

I guess you and I just have different views on what "a little love" means. There's plenty else it could mean besides "hurrdurr buff my champion"

Rabblerouser1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bot Lane Rammus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=p8IlHaAa,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-12-19T17:05:12.577+0000)

she could use a small gameplay update like xin.

shes a champion who really doesn't do anything fun outside of her ult. I say besides her Q and her Ult there's literally nothing interesting about her.

Hasn't she already gotten a mini-update. It was namely shifting early power from her skills to her passive procs.

Daedric Etwahl1 votes

Mini updates can still work. I think a good first step might be to add more skill expression to her Q. Turning it into a skillshot. What kind is up for debate, but perhaps they could do this for all of her spells? Perhaps give a skillshot on her E that applies CC to the person it hits so she has CC pre-6, unlike every other support.

It could be just a regular projectile skillshot in the form of a soundwave, or it could be something along the lines of Xerath Q or Vel'Koz W (only without the AoE zone and second proc in the latter case)

There's a lot they could do. I don't want them to rush treatment of her though just because a few loud voices are yelling for it now that she's been overnerfed.

Rabblerouser1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Daedric Etwahl,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=p8IlHaAa,comment-id=000200010000,timestamp=2017-12-19T18:11:22.112+0000)

Mini updates can still work. I think a good first step might be to add more skill expression to her Q. Turning it into a skillshot. What kind is up for debate, but perhaps they could do this for all of her spells? Perhaps give a skillshot on her E that applies CC to the person it hits so she has CC pre-6, unlike every other support.

It could be just a regular projectile skillshot in the form of a soundwave, or it could be something along the lines of Xerath Q or Vel'Koz W (only without the AoE zone and second proc in the latter case)

There's a lot they could do. I don't want them to rush treatment of her though just because a few loud voices are yelling for it now that she's been overnerfed.

She's already got some light CC on her E passive proc. Just it probably feels to every Sona that the passive should ALWAYS be used for Q poke and rarely for the 40% slow on E or the damage reduction on W passive proc.

Honestly, I'd just be happy if they buffed the W and E passive procs to have more effect. :V

Q being a skillshot is something I would stomach, too. Not sure if E needs it, though. Imagine if Q immediately readied up her passive. It'd have to suffer on its cooldown to be balanced, but it could in theory allow greater skill flexibility since the current pattern feels like you always have to use the passive proc on Q because damage doesn't wear off. Just an idea I thought of just now so maybe not balanced. Don't taze me. :D

Daedric Etwahl1 votes

True she does have CC on her E, but that's really on her passive, and it's just soft CC: a slow. And while a slow sounds nice, it's single target and is on an auto attack, so if the enemy has a gapcloser or CC of their own, there's a pretty good chance they aren't going to care about a little slow from Sona.

I don't really like the idea of her W's heal being on a skillshot. Missing a Heal sounds really, really bad on paper. Like sure with Soraka you can misclick but then at least SOMEONE got healed.

To be honest, early game Q passive's proc is really strong, but then later, if you don't build full AP (like myself) then W becomes way more enticing, especially vs so many assassins and divers that people love throwing at you. Just last game I was able to use my real Exhaust to neuter the enemy Zed on my Trist, while I then was able to turn around and Diminuendo the enemy Talon running at my Ori. It's a wonderful thing to have.

cringemaster381 votes

Malphite

Mister Modesty1 votes

Malphite Nunu I'm still waiting to see some more "pizzazz" to these champions' kits.

For Nunu: I think his Ultimate should summon an Avalanche that damages enemies and leaves "Heavy Snow". Heavy Snow slows the movement speed of all units that pass through it- and the snow is lifted wherever units travel through. Plus- Nunu's W can make him and target ally immune to the slow from "Heavy Snow".

For Malphite: I just want to see his size scale with armor and maybe something more forceful behind the Ultimate.

Provengreil1 votes

more forceful than an unstoppable vi ult in a large area that, while it technically can be flashed, is functionally undodgeable if you have any ping at all?

Floofz1 votes

The main problem with sona is a lot of her power stems from adding gold value to those around her and her spells rnt very efficient unless they r impacting 3+ people and her base values are extremely poor and the way riot has made up for the lack of base value is by allowing her to have extremely short cooldowns which are tied to levels, however her mana cast to spell value is relatively poor until she gets items.

All of this is a huge issue cause first off shes designed for a role that is suppose to be functional off very few items and less levels (which id argue only applies to engage supps or champions like taric who have abilities that r always useful and have there values basically set at rank 1 since most enchanters basically have poor base kits and item dependant) and while having a scaling support sounds nice the purpose of the role is to be impactful early-mid rather then late since your given less resources.

I personally feel they should either make her Q and W skill shots, and yes skillshot heals while would feel bad to miss at least allows them to give her more power budget in the spells and to move her away from spamming spells to having her abilities on longer cds but more impactful effects that way shes less level and mana restricted and more cd restricted which honestly is what a support should be. At the very list make her base values actually decent and remove the passive on her ult that way she can still apply some pressure early-mid but wont be as good late maybe even increase her cds longer to allow for better base values that way when u use ur abilities it matters more when u use them while giving her more relevance throughout the game.

And on a final note for anyone that loves the late game sona dream as long as her abilities impact multiple people she will always scale well into late cause all she does is give effective gold buffs to her team which gives u more value per person hit hence she doesn't need 67% cdr to have a better late game then most supports but she does need more impact in her actual basic abilities( I personally dont care how riot does it but her basic abilities need to be enhanced beyond giving a diff variant of old aegis to her teammates ) to be relevant for most of the game and to make her balanceable.

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