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Why pick Talon?

Skithryx··11 votes·4,424 views

Full Disclosure: This post may seem a bit whiny at some points, but this is not a "Nerf/Buff Pl0X" thread. It is an attempt to foster legitimate discussion and juxtaposition between two champions.

I recently introduced a new friend into league, and he took an instant liking to the look and feel of Talon (He's new to LoL, not the MOBA genre as a whole). As someone who enjoys the champion, I encouraged him to play a few games, but he never quite seemed to click with Talon mechanically. He asked if there were any other champs who "did the same thing, but different?" As I'm sure many of you would in the same situation, I immediately thought of Zed. After I explained Zed's abilities and play-style, and of course showed him some of Faker's sheer insanity on the champion, he posed an interesting question to me.

Why pick Talon?

At first I was a bit taken aback. Sure, the two rogue/ninja-esque characters were similar, but they have a multitude of differences. I tried to defend Talon out of general positive regard for our favorite cloak-and-dagger hero, but found myself quickly losing justifiable arguments.

Mobility? Zed outshines Talon in everything but a straight out sprint, and while his non-ultimate gap closer is not targeted, it does allow him to jump walls and have a handy escape, while Talon's mobility is only able to engage. Obviously Zed seems to be the more effective in-and-out Assassin, offering a significantly higher survival opportunity than Talon.

Damage? Zed boasts the highest realistic AD in the game (leaving out infinite farm Atma's Sion and temporary AD boost Malphite), has a built-in high damage passive, and a kit that scales extremely well with damage. This isn't to say that Talon's kit is weak, simply that in a pure numbers game, Zed outshines Talon. This is offset by the reliability of Talon's damage somewhat. To really fill Zed's potential requires the use of both a clone (or two) and the ability to land skill-shots, while Talon has a much simpler "face-roll" type combo which can be used effectively at melee range. Even this is subject to a caveat though when Zed's ult is considered, allowing an all but Garen-teed kill on any target with less than 250 (arbitrarily picked high-value number)armor. Talon does offer "more" AOE damage in a team fight. I say "more" because in my experience, when late game rolls around, shuriken flying about from three clones off of a 400 AD base tend to rip teams apart regardless.

Zed also edges out Talon in the lane, sporting energy instead of mana, which Talon has historically struggled with, and utilizing his passive to secure some of the easiest last hitting in the game.

There are of course other considerations to these champions, but seeing as they both fill the assassin role I thought these to be the most relevant. Zed seems to be a more reliable champion to fill the assassin role than Talon in almost every way, with stronger mobility, damage, and lane presence. Now I'll be the first to admit that I do not play Zed as often as I probably should to justify this post, and I've not even glanced at win/pick/ban rates for the two, because that's not what I'm really asking. What I want to know is; ** Why pick Talon? **

43 Comments

ImFlutterShy15 votes

Because talon does a lot more AoE damage?

UdoIkOSc4u5 votes

{quoted}

Because talon does a lot more AoE damage?

not really see zed q and his e

Sightless669 votes

Neither of those really have the AoE potential of Talon's W and R. Zed has some AoE, but not to the same degree as Talon does.

Feathermane1 votes

Zed in jungle teamfight scenarios = easy multikills. Talon casts a wider net, but Zed deals more aoe.

thinking man1 votes

{quoted}

not really see zed q and his e

he does more AoE damage than that since Talon's ult is AoE in a much bigger radius than Zed's Q or E.

Killer X 121 votes

checks cool, tells us what we already know. Talon does more aoe damage than Zed.

Squarefighter1 votes

Just like how xerath ult does more aoe damage than ziggs ult

MrSc0tty11 votes

Talon brings a few things.

  1. instant burst. There's no "hehehe, I'm going to show up in a predictable location in exactly one second, use exhaust/cc/Zhonyas now" Talon can get either a stealth long range engage with no safety or a cutthroat engage with escape and very quick burst. Basically Talon is to Zed what Diana is to Katarina. His damage is not tied to anything that has a split-second delay.

  2. Slightly less predictable escape. Zeds shadows gives you a way to predict where he might go, the stealth is a little more free-form in where you can go especially combined with cutthroat or flash, etc.

  3. AOEs. Talons are much bigger on his shuriken and ult. A fed Talon can instantly burst one target while AOE smacking a couple others. Zed tends to blow up just one dude.

ForgiveColour8 votes

talon has 56% win rate in diamond for a reason with a reasonable pick rate to justify his winrate

Skithryx1 votes

{quoted}

I feel like Talon has stronger team-fight potential than Zed. With a Black Cleaver, he can rapidly apply tons of armor shred, and his burst tends to have a higher AOE component than Zed's. Talon's roams feel stronger than Zed's, as well.

Fair points. Heavy AD teams, especially AOE focused ones (Hello Wukong) are probably a better fit for Talon than Zed. Not sure I agree with the roam. Zed tends to have a much better "if I show up and you're within 1000 units of me, I'm going to kill you" vibe to me, as well as being able to clear waves efficiently w/o mana to roam.

{quoted}

talon has 56% win rate in diamond for a reason with a reasonable pick rate to justify his winrate

Malzahar has a very similar win/pick rate (~56/3.X), but he has a fairly unique playstyle/gimmick that he isn't competing for. What I think the more telling statistic is for Diamond play is the almost 40% ban rate of Zed. Diamond players are much more impacted by Zed on a game to game basis than by Talon, and I think it's fairly apparent why.

Rinky Dinky6 votes

Talon does more damage faster, and more damage overall than Zed, single burst and AoE.

Same for why you would pick Brand over Malzahar.

Or Graves over Lucian.

Talon will kill his target far faster than Zed, and do more AoE damage before dying himself or getting out. Zed does less damage single target and AoE, takes more time to do it, BUT, is far far far more safe. That is why he is picked over Talon. Talon has higher reward, but ridiculous risk. He can't just afk farm and sustain if he gets shit on (Has mana).

Overall, Talon is only better if you yourself are a better Talon than you are a Zed. Zed is much more forgiving.

Divewing2 votes

Basically this, the risk-reward ratios are skewed as fuck for talon (GO HAM OR GO HOME), but not for zed

GodofMountainDew3 votes

I think the biggest thing that sets them apart is that Talon is far deadlier when his ult is down. Even without his ult, I feel that most late game talons will instakill carries in one rotation from 750 range. Also, though Talon's base AD is not as high as Zed's, he has better damage scaling on his abilities.

Others have mentioned his better teamfight potential, which is definitely true. His bleed on his Q also has some very niche strategic advantages when used against enemies with stealth, or clone users.

MrBuffington3 votes

For me, Talon has among the fastest and most reliable 100-0 potential in the game (imo full damage Rengar, and maybe Shaco, are the only other AD champions, in a post-DFG world, that really have the same reliable 'pop' potential, but they don't have the same AoE damage). His spells are either targeted or have a pretty huge AoE that makes them difficult to miss.

Zed isn't really that reliable, there are a lot more things that can (and will; even Faker messes up on Zed) go wrong when going in on a target as Zed (Real talk: there is literally a glowing red "X" on the screen where Zed is going to end up after he ults). Zed has more flexibility in his kit, but at his core he's still an assassin, and an assassin that can't kill their target is basically useless. Killing people as Talon is much more reliable.

If your friend is having trouble with Talon's mechanics, the last champion I'd suggest they try out is Zed, honestly (I agree with you that they're similar, at least in feel/character, but Zed is far more mechanically demanding to play at even a remotely competent level). Maybe let them try out Master Yi, Wukong, Xin Zhao, or Pantheon; they're also pretty straightforward, albeit they typically don't do the same amount of single target damage (especially if you're building them more bruiser).

forist2 votes

Do you like Assassin's Creed or Ninja Gaiden better? That's how i chose between the two.

Skithryx2 votes

Haha. Something like that. What I want to know is if there is a real niche for Talon that Zed doesn't fill better outside of the aesthetics.

somexotherxguy1 votes

Talon does have a niche, he has a reliable AOE burst which, if played correctly, can't be stopped. If a Talon flanks right and gets to the backline the teamfight is over. Zed has a more predictable single target style of assassination packed with mobility to ensure he can stick to his target. Zed is a split push assassin who wants a 1v1 scenario. Whereas Talon wants to teamfight and burst multiple targets at the same time. They both have their strengths, Zed just fits the meta right now thus sees way more play.

LadyRenly2 votes

I saw someone go 43/1 as talon. He has to be good SOMEHOW..

warpenguin5552 votes

because some people are better at talon then zed duh

Skithryx1 votes

{quoted}

because some people are better at talon then zed duh

I can't tell if you're trolling or completely missed the point of the discussion...

warpenguin5551 votes

{quoted}

I can't tell if you're trolling or completely missed the point of the discussion...

a bit of both actually

Skithryx1 votes

{quoted}

a bit of both actually

The point I'm trying to call attention to is a comparison of the two champions as they impact the game. Outside of any one person's ability to play the champion, it seems to me that Zed has a much more powerful and relevant kit for the almost identical role shared by the two characters in question. Essentially, does Talon have qualities or attributes that make him an attractive alternative choice to Zed, or does he need to be changed either mechanically (reworked), or numerically (buffed)? Can he even be buffed to be competitive without just sheer force of numbers? Are there parts of his kit which can be tweaked to differentiate his abilities and/or role from falling in Zed's shadow? Pun definitely intended.

Bears Dont Care2 votes

There is no reason really, Zed does everything Talon does, but better. Far better.

flibitydoo2 votes

Talon's cutthroat is instantaneous and has 700 range.

Zed shadow is 550 and you need to send out the shadow before blinking to it. His ultimate cast range is 625 range, and has a .75 second delay before putting you next to the adc.

Llanite2 votes

If you want the best champs possible, play the best.

League have 121 champs, can only have many fields: best burst, best sustain dps, tankiest, quickest, most cc, etc. If you have 20 'best', there can only be 20 winners, the other 100 have to be underdog.

To put it shortly, you want to play competitively, you have to stick with the best route, best build, best strategy and best champs. Ones can't simply do whatever he pleases and come out top.

To answer your question: people play Talon as they like the aesthetic and playstyle, forgo the performance.

ThePlasticSpork2 votes

Talon has better AOE. If you're willing to consider "he's easier to play" as being another a "positive" to Talon, there's that too.

His burst is also delivered faster than Zeds and doesn't have the same warning that Zed does (shadows, evil laughing, mark appearing on his target, etc.), so it's a bit more difficult for the enemy team to react to Talon going in and trying to murder someone.

Alorasence2 votes

because i suck at zed :(

76Summers2 votes

if you do the combo correctly its faster assasination than zed...garenteed

Skithryx1 votes

Of course! I'm not arguing that he's unplayable or anything close to that at all. I'm just trying to see if anyone can point to something(s) that make him an attractive pick against Zed. He almost seems to be Zed-lite, someone to pick to do Zed's job almost as well when Zed is banned.

Toothless Lion1 votes

I used to say that Talon had more CC, but after people cried about his oh so dangerous, oh so unfair 1 fucking second silence, they have both have an AOE slow. Zed, however, can use his from range. I miss playing Talon, but I just can't bring myself to play him mid this season on the off chance that I have to go to that lane. He's risky and doesn't really counter anyone it seems like without the silence. He can do well against squishy skillshot mages, but with Zhonya's still being broken they can just farm through the early game and play safe until they have the gold for it.

EDIT: I should add that Talon's winrate is 52% and Zed's is 48% so some people are having success with him. I just don't think he's worth the risk when I play mid once in 50 games.

Skithryx1 votes

This is something I forgot to point out in the main post, though looking back it doesn't matter much. Talon does have an AOE slow, but I can't imagine a situation where someone wants to claim that that is the reason he should be picked. I agree with the statement that he seems to be risky without the reward to balance it out. No matter what, Zed is going to at the very least force an enemy squishy out of a fight, while Talon can often be forced out of a kill early due to his "escape" being a large part of his burst. As far as win rate goes, you always need to consider two things. 1) More popular champs often have lower win rates due to players who cannot mechanically play the champion well, and 2) that that win rate means nothing on its own. The question isn't if Talon can be played or even if he's strong or weak. I still haven't seen anything that makes me think Zed isn't the all-around better pick with the small possible exception of some form of AOE team comp.

admiralcourvoisi1 votes

I feel like Talon has stronger team-fight potential than Zed. With a Black Cleaver, he can rapidly apply tons of armor shred, and his burst tends to have a higher AOE component than Zed's. Talon's roams feel stronger than Zed's, as well.

Yorukin1 votes

As other people mentioned, Talon has significantly better AoE, giving him a somewhat stronger teamfight presence when he jumps in. He also gives people FAR less time to react, as with quick fingers he can unload his entire combo in the span of a second. Zed, on the other hand, relies on low-cooldown moderate-damage skills and a delayed burst of damage to finish someone off.

This last one might just be me, but I also seem to do better against enemy assassins with Talon than I do with Zed, largely due to the aforementioned quick burst and the unreadability that others mentioned. Admittedly, I don't have very much experience with Zed (having not yet purchased him), but I can work quite well against, say, Pantheon or Katarina as Talon, but I struggle with him against mages. Of course, if you want an anti-mage assassin, Kassadin is generally a safer bet anyway. But I digress.

Kitten of Evil1 votes

I think it's mainly his larger AOE, which means he has more teamfight presence.

XeroKimo1 votes

Pre-nerf to Talon's e, he was picked as a anti caster assassin, he actually had the upper hand against zeds at this time since he could silence him and lay out a full burst before zed could even ult or w away, even if zed were to ult him he had his ult to make him hard to hit due to invsibility and had silence to stop his skill usage during a part of his ult. Right now, Talon is really effective against champs that don't have a blink or dash, using one of the 2 all in combos E-AA-Q-R-W-AA, E-AA-Q-R-Ravenous active-W-AA The burst is rather quick, in fact if you don't know, if 1 w is enough to clear caster minions, you should be able to all in the enemy mid laner assuming you guys are at equal grounds, they should survive with around 100-150 hp with the combo, finish it off with ignite and they'd be down, just a little tip from what I notice, also kinda assuming they don't have like 80 friggen armor at level 6 T_T it hurts when people do dis to me as a talon

1st HanarSpectre1 votes

Talon still does a shit ton of damage, and can definitely 100-0 all non tank/bruiser. His silence removal made him a bit more risky, but he can still do his job quite well, but even despite that, I think Talon is a better teamfight than Zed is.

GloriousKaiser1 votes

Talon bursts faster. But he loses out on pretty much every other category. Oh well.

DanofDemacia1 votes

Why pick lux? Why pick zyra? Some champs are shit some arent its life

Raid Boss Morde1 votes

Zed has more single target burst, while Talon has AoE burst.

The Trent1 votes

Talon is actually a extremely good pick against a lot of people. He beats Zed in lane really hard if you play him right and pretty much all mages except the cock block Liss and Malz. This is just my opinion tho.

Also why were you comparing zed and talon? Their play styles are so different. Zed is forced to split push late game because he sucks at team fights, but talon can do both split and teamfight.

SpongebobIsLife1 votes

because they are both the only ad assassins in the game. It makes sense to compare the two.

High Lord Blaze1 votes

Talon has good AoE, and doesn't rely entirely on his ult with hitting Qs for a kill. Plus he has invis. And isn't countered as hard by Zhonyas/QSS

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