congratz riot warwick is now unuseable

acehole76·Dec 10, 2014·4 votes·2,047 views

in every role but jungle. warwick wasnt broken riot the item was. good job making ww a champ with no options. he is now an average jungler and unusable laner.

55 Comments

poopoo peepeeDec 10, 20146 votes

He was never supposed to be a laner. You could still do ap Ww mid, but he was never really meant to go top.

BuppieDec 10, 20142 votes

He was never supposed to be a laner. You could still do ap Ww mid, but he was never really meant to go top.

THANK you think of it like...azir yeah you can do azir support or top but his best is mid lane. you can do it with ww too it just sucks ass because he belongs in the jungle. They make specific champions for specific lanes sometimes. Also remember ww ult CD lvl 3 was not nerfed so you will still have it almost every team fight.

Cale017Dec 10, 20144 votes

Funfact: None of the other AA-centric champions were broken when using that item.

ipso facto Skirmisher/Devourer isn't the problem. Warwick is. More specifically, Warwick's ult.

S H A Y C 0Dec 10, 20141 votes

tell that to all the noob warwicks out there, lol! so many fails....

AtheosisXDec 10, 20142 votes

It was the interaction of the two actually. Riot could have addressed that directly by removing the effect from WW's ult, but they took the hamfisted approach of nuking everything from orbit.

Cale017Dec 10, 20141 votes

Considering WW's ult is SUPPOSED to proc on hit effects, removing the ability for it to do so ruins a lot of his core gameplay.

And honestly he didn't get nuked from orbit. It's not THAT bad, and he's still going to be strong due to his sustain and dueling potential. But now he won't be able to nuke you from a bush anymore.

AtheosisXDec 10, 20142 votes

I was just saying that they needed to change Skirmisher to not work with it, not to change it so on-hit effects don't work at all. And yes they did nuke him from orbit. His ult will rarely get kills now and the nerf to his W hurts him big time, both in terms of jungling and in terms of being a presence in team fights.

Cale017Dec 11, 20141 votes

That'd be the only way to do it though. Skirmisher's is an on hit effect, so they'd have to give it an entirely separate coding from anything else in the game to make it so that it wouldn't work with champions like Fiora or WW's ults. It's asking for more trouble than it's worth.

And they did nerf it anyways. It doesn't deal true on hit, it burns true over time.

AtheosisXDec 11, 20141 votes

Yes, and it was an over-nerf, strictly because of those champs.

twerkhorseDec 10, 20141 votes

Considering WW's ult is SUPPOSED to proc on hit effects, removing the ability for it to do so ruins a lot of his core gameplay.

And honestly he didn't get nuked from orbit. It's not THAT bad, and he's still going to be strong due to his sustain and dueling potential. But now he won't be able to nuke you from a bush anymore.

This exactly. It's the one button (R), 100% to 0% nuke build made possible by devour.

Cale017Dec 11, 20141 votes

Let's be honest here. I've been nuked pretty hard by WW before this patch, but I was never sent from 100% to 0%.

And again, they took off the true damage on hit and made it damage over time.

AMYS GRAVEDec 10, 20141 votes

an appropriate fix would have been

Skirmisher's Sabre RECIPE Hunter's Machete + 350 gold PASSIVE - CHALLENGING SMITE Smite can be cast on enemy champions, marking them for 6 seconds. While marked, you deal 18-69 bonus true damage to them on ~~hit~~ basic attacks, have vision of them, and reduce their damage to you by 20%. PASSIVE - JUNGLER Deal 45 magic damage on hit to monsters over 2 seconds and gain 10 health and 5 mana per second while in combat with monsters

problem solved without nerfing anything or anyone into the ground.

it removes the problem cases (warwick, firoa, lulu) without nerfing anything too hard.

Bears Dont CareDec 10, 20141 votes

Funfact: None of the other AA-centric champions were broken when using that item.

Really? So you never played against Master Yi or NOcturne before?

They nerfed both his ult and his AS steroid, yeah, they gutted him. Don't bother using him, you'll just get counter jungled to oblivion. Mmkay.

Cale017Dec 11, 20142 votes

I hate Master Yi with a passion, but he also couldn't hold you in place, unable to retaliate, for three seconds while both damaging you and healing himself for free. A Yi still has to stand and take damage while he fights you.

Nocturne is my main. He scales well with attack speed and does great with on hit effects but, again, his ult just doesn't compare to Warwick's.

The main issue wasn't the item itself. It didn't break the game when played on other champions, even if it was a bit annoying on some (Master Yi.) But no other champion who used it had an ult quite like Warwick's save for Fiora's, and hers wasn't a suppression that increases her lifesteal while it's active. It wasn't just the item, and it wasn't just Warwick's on hit effects. It was the combination of everything else his ult was doing when combined with the on hit damage.

They buffed his steroid. It went from 10 seconds to 6 seconds. Less power on his ult, more power on his attack speed steroid.d

Bears Dont CareDec 11, 20141 votes

{quoted} I hate Master Yi with a passion, but he also couldn't hold you in place, unable to retaliate, for three seconds while both damaging you and healing himself for free. A Yi still has to stand and take damage while he fights you.

You are held down for 1.5s, not 3 seconds. If you are held down for 3 seconds, ou wre CC'ed by someone else after WW jumped you. Wile Yi doesn't CC you hard, he also has true damage built into his attacks by default. When you stack it with skirmisher, the amount of damage that he can deal is superior than WW< especially when he can stick to you through the usage of his Q.

Nocturne is my main. He scales well with attack speed and does great with on hit effects but, again, his ult just doesn't compare to Warwick's.

You're too focused on WW's ult, you're not considering anything else before and after it. WW can't stick to you unless someone is below 50% hp. His blink ca also be interrupted by CC. After he ults, he literally has nothing. Meanwhile, Master Yi has a damage mitigaton ability, a gap closer, a soft reset, and an AS steroid and the means of sticking onto you.

Nocturne can stick onto a target without any damage needing to be done to the target, heck they even buffed him so feared targets give an insane MS buff. You're so focused on his ultimate that you're ignoring many of the weaknesses that made WW an unviable jungler in Season 4. Which is easy because you're not interested in what is balanced, you're only concerned about what you don't like, which is not obective.

The main issue wasn't the item itself. It didn't break the game when played on other champions, even if it was a bit annoying on some (Master Yi.) But no other champion who used it had an ult quite like Warwick's save for Fiora's, and hers wasn't a suppression that increases her lifesteal while it's active. It wasn't just the item, and it wasn't just Warwick's on hit effects. It was the combination of everything else his ult was doing when combined with the on hit damage.

No it was the item. SKirmisher was the only brand new item. Devourer was a feral flare with 15 stacks. For you to say WW was a problem suggests he was a problem in S4, which he wasn't. Seriously, logic, connect the dots.

The only new item was skirmisher, and yet no one complained about WW until the 4.20. changes occurred. Clearly, this is an issue of items, not the champion.

They buffed his steroid. It went from 10 seconds to 6 seconds. Less power on his ult, more power on his attack speed steroid.d

Are you stupid? How is that a buff!? "They lowered the duration of his steroid, that's a buff."

Cale017Dec 11, 20141 votes

You are held down for 1.5s, not 3 seconds. If you are held down for 3 seconds, ou wre CC'ed by someone else after WW jumped you. Wile Yi doesn't CC you hard, he also has true damage built into his attacks by default. When you stack it with skirmisher, the amount of damage that he can deal is superior than WW< especially when he can stick to you through the usage of his Q.

Right, my bad. It just feels like three seconds sometimes haha. I also didn't say that Yi wasn't bad, but he wasn't going completely insane like WW was with the new jungle item. Still annoying, but not annoying. When I can say I'd rather fight a Yi, that's a sign.

You're too focused on WW's ult, you're not considering anything else before and after it. WW can't stick to you unless someone is below 50% hp. His blink ca also be interrupted by CC. After he ults, he literally has nothing. Meanwhile, Master Yi has a damage mitigaton ability, a gap closer, a soft reset, and an AS steroid and the means of sticking onto you.

Nocturne can stick onto a target without any damage needing to be done to the target, heck they even buffed him so feared targets give an insane MS buff. You're so focused on his ultimate that you're ignoring many of the weaknesses that made WW an unviable jungler in Season 4.

I am considering before and after it, but it's the before and after that are combining with how much his ult brings to the table that were breaking the game while he had that item built. Sure his blink can be interrupted by CC, but that's if you have that sort of CC available. Not everyone does, meaning that if you don't have hard CC built into your kit you aren't going to be able to stop him from getting to you without a timely dash or peel from a teammate. But really, saying after he ults he has nothing? Last I checked he still has ramping damage and healing on hit on every auto attack, he still has his Q which can give him enough health to win a fight through the early and mid game, and can build more tank than Yi while still putting out nearly comparable damage because he has so many on hit effects running in his favor at the same time. Even if it's not quite as high as Yi's, he can put out that damage for longer because of it. Not to mention if he builds a BotRK he can stick to you just fine long enough to drop you to that 50% HP point and then you're ripe for the taking.

But, again, is Nocturne locking down an enemy for an extended duration while dealing damage and healing in a manner that cannot be retaliated against? You're saying that I'm too focused on his ult, but it's his ult that everyone was QQing about. Sure, outside of that he's a bit meh if there are no 50% or lower enemies, if he doesn't have a BotRK, or if his team doesn't adequately set him up, but part of the problem with WW was that he was powerfarming 6, walking out of the jungle during the early game and getting himself or his lanes snowballing much quicker than other laners because of the inherent sustain in his kit allowing him to stay in the jungle for a much longer period of time than a Yi or a Nocturne or even an Udyr. The weaknesses that made him weak in season 4 were that he didn't bring as much utility as some other junglers outside of his ult, but the preseason meta has shifted to show a favor towards junglers who can safely sustain in their own jungle over junglers who can provide a wealth of utility. Their ganking, counter ganking, counter jungling, and early to mid game potential are enough to allow teams to get the snow rolling down the mountainside because they're consistently at higher percentages of health versus a Rammus or a Volibear who are running a bit lower at all times, making them open to being counterjungled and killed or making it unsafe for them to attempt ganks.

It's not that I'm too focused on his ult, it's that I recognize the threat his ult brings while also being aware of the play patterns, that Warwicks, and high sustain junglers in general, are taking in matches. The jungle has become risky, and therefore low risk junglers are becoming stronger picks. In season 4 he was balanced out because while some junglers had a faster clear than others, most junglers only really had any issue at all with their first clear and after that they were golden and able to start raining ganks down upon their lowly laners with impunity. Warwick had decent clear times, a powerful early game, but fell off in the late game unless he got fed, or unless he managed to get his team fed, because he couldn't stay relevant after other junglers picked up through the mid and late games. That isn't how this jungle is currently working, and it's because he can either get himself fed or get his team fed, combining his insane sustain in the jungle along with his potent ult locking down kills for himself or his team, that he's strong right now.

Which is easy because you're not interested in what is balanced, you're only concerned about what you don't like, which is not obective.

Do not attempt to undermine my understanding just because you aren't aware of the bigger picture. League is a game of numbers, and those small numbers add up to a big effect over the course of a match. Warwick's early game dominance was allowing teams to push, get barons, and establish advantages much easier than any other jungler's early phases. If you have any further issues, feel free to take them up with his 60% winrate. No matter how much you want to preach about your own objectivity, or try and chastise a supposed lack of the same on my part, numbers don't care who or why. And the numbers show that he was a dominant force even above Yi's. It is precisely because his ult needed to be reigned back in, both by reducing the damage from Devourer's, removing the damage on hit from Skirmisher's, and reducing the base damage on his ult, that he needs the balance while other champions who are AA centric do not need to be nerfed in comparison.

No it was the item. SKirmisher was the only brand new item. Devourer was a feral flare with 15 stacks. For you to say WW was a problem suggests he was a problem in S4, which he wasn't. Seriously, logic, connect the dots.

The only new item was skirmisher, and yet no one complained about WW until the 4.20. changes occurred. Clearly, this is an issue of items, not the champion.

Really? Tell me one other jungler who can walk out of the jungle at level 6 with a Skirmisher/Devourer and deal 250 base magic damage plus five procs of true damage and an additional 200 magic damage while also healing for almost half the damage he's dealing, while also holding that one enemy in place for 1.5 seconds, which is an absolute death sentence in most cases during the early game. Just so I can expedite this process, that's over 450 magic damage, another 85 true damage, and holding you in place while the enemy mid/ADC blasts you to bits. Please, tell me how Nocturne is able to deal that much damage in 1.5 seconds while not allowing you to retaliate. Justify to me how a Shyvana would need less than 3 or 4 seconds to rack up that same amount of damage with her Burnout up, with an E > AA > Q, and with having to take harass back for it and needing help from teammates to stick to someone long enough to do so.

Go ahead.

I'll wait.

Yeah, it's a FF with 15 stacks. And do you know who was a part of the reason that FF got nerfed shortly after it launched? Warwick. Because in much the same way as his ult abused FF, it was abusing the Skirmisher/Devourer combo as well. He was a problem during season 4 for the very short reign of the Feral Flare just after it's launch. Especially when the healing it gave was also increasing with the stacks on it.

Are you stupid? How is that a buff!? "They lowered the duration of his steroid, that's a buff."

Oh, you got me there, my bad. When I first read the patch notes I was in a bit of a rush getting ready for work yesterday. I read that as cooldown instead of duration. But good job resorting straight to insults just because you don't like what I'm saying. Way to show that you have something legitimate to offer.

Still waiting to hear who else has a 500+ damage ult at level 6 with a suppress and healing by the way. And I bet I'll be waiting a long time.

Bears Dont CareDec 11, 20141 votes

Right, my bad. It just feels like three seconds sometimes haha. I also didn't say that Yi wasn't bad, but he wasn't going completely insane like WW was with the new jungle item. Still annoying, but not annoying. When I can say I'd rather fight a Yi, that's a sign

That is because you're thinking that because you are CC'ed while taking damage, its a bigger issue. Yi's total damage is superior to that of WW over time due to crit damage also being involved. It ust feels worse because WW suppresses you, while Yi is chasing you down. The amount of time it takes Yi to melt someone vs WW is about the same if not lesser.

I am considering before and after it, but it's the before and after that are combining with how much his ult brings to the table that were breaking the game while he had that item built. Sure his blink can be interrupted by CC, but that's if you have that sort of CC available.

I snipped it since it was long. Keep in mind the game is a team based game. It isn't about 1v1's. WW is designed to excel at 1v1's because his teamfghting caability is poor. Many individuals, partcularly support will have hard CC that will stop WW's ultimate and serve as both a form of peel and damage reduction. O top of this, WW has some of the slowest clearing in the game because he has nothing outside of his AS steroid t aid in his jungle clear speed.

Do not attempt to undermine my understanding just because you aren't aware of the bigger picture. League is a game of numbers, and those small numbers add up to a big effect over the course of a match. Warwick's early game dominance was allowing teams to push, get barons, and establish advantages much easier than any other jungler's early phases. If you have any further issues, feel free to take them up with his 60% winrate. No matter how much you want to preach about your own objectivity, or try and chastise a supposed lack of the same on my part, numbers don't care who or why. And the numbers show that he was a dominant force even above Yi's. It is precisely because his ult needed to be reigned back in, both by reducing the damage from Devourer's, removing the damage on hit from Skirmisher's, and reducing the base damage on his ult, that he needs the balance while other champions who are AA centric do not need to be nerfed in comparison.

I disagree, because again, if this was an issue pre- 4.20, we would have seen a decrease in the base damage of his ultimate. Fortunately we did not, and the reduction of its base damage on top of reducing devourer to feral flare numbers serves purely as a nerf that skirmisher's does not cover. Instead of pushing WW into other options such as trailblazer, poacher, and stalker's blade, he absolutely needs skrmisher to make up for the lack of damage he once had.

Really? Tell me one other jungler who can walk out of the jungle at level 6 with a Skirmisher/Devourer and deal 250 base magic damage plus five procs of true damage and an additional 200 magic damage while also healing for almost half the damage he's dealing, while also holding that one enemy in place for 1.5 seconds, which is an absolute death sentence in most cases during the early game. Just so I can expedite this process, that's over 450 magic damage, another 85 true damage, and holding you in place while the enemy mid/ADC blasts you to bits. Please, tell me how Nocturne is able to deal that much damage in 1.5 seconds while not allowing you to retaliate. Justify to me how a Shyvana would need less than 3 or 4 seconds to rack up that same amount of damage with her Burnout up, with an E > AA > Q, and with having to take harass back for it and needing help from teammates to stick to someone long enough to do so.

Go ahead.

I'll wait.

Sure. Pick nocturne. pick up skirmishers and devourer. Proceed to fear your target for over 2 seconds at max rank while also being able to stay on top of the target. Pick Master Yi, use your ult, tap Q then E, proceed to obliterate your target. Just because it seems overwhelming, doesn't mean that other cases do not exist either. WW did the following. smte~~>R~~>Q, That is his entire kit, this is te same behavior exhibited by assassins and other glass cannons The only difference is you can't interrupt them as easily as you can WW.

I don't need to name someone who can do that damage with an ult, Master Yi does it just by tappng R, then E, and killing your entire team. It is extremely easy to ignore all of the weaknesses WW possesses.

Cale017Dec 12, 20141 votes

That is because you're thinking that because you are CC'ed while taking damage, its a bigger issue. Yi's total damage is superior to that of WW over time due to crit damage also being involved. It ust feels worse because WW suppresses you, while Yi is chasing you down. The amount of time it takes Yi to melt someone vs WW is about the same if not lesser.

You're right. His damage over time IS superior. Over time. Not with a single button press and then watching for a second and a half while any nearby teammates are also getting free shots on the affected champion. It doesn't "feel" worse, it is worse. A Yi has to stay on you to deal damage, and while he certainly has a kit that allows him do, he can still be kited, is still susceptible to hard CC that keeps him from getting close. Keep in mind that the range on WW's ult is longer than the range on Yi's Q as well. And once again, you're missing the point. Yi can melt someone like a Warwick can, but when he does it it's also generally not giving any assists to laners, or at least not as many. Yi also cannot solo a dragon at a low level as he doesn't have that much inherent sustain in his kit outside of meditate, which is very meh early on.

I snipped it since it was long. Keep in mind the game is a team based game. It isn't about 1v1's. WW is designed to excel at 1v1's because his teamfghting caability is poor. Many individuals, partcularly support will have hard CC that will stop WW's ultimate and serve as both a form of peel and damage reduction. O top of this, WW has some of the slowest clearing in the game because he has nothing outside of his AS steroid t aid in his jungle clear speed.

If it weren't about 1v1s, you wouldn't have two solo lanes and junglers duking it out over objectives in each other's territory. Sure at the end of the day you have to teamfight to win a match, but advantages are won and lost during the early and mid games with 1v1s, and late game a player gets punished if they go off alone by having to fight enemy champions who might be specifically designed to take out single targets. You can't stop his ult once it's already started, you just wait until it's over. A more accurate wording would be "many individuals, particularly support, will have hard CC that will keep a Warwick from getting within range to use his ult." Once he's hit someone with it there's no stopping it, even if you Cleanse/QSS it to end the suppression, the damage still ticks off while you're running away. Warwick may have some of the slowest clearing regularly, but he is currently beating out other junglers because he can stay in the jungle for a much longer time than, say, a Shyvana could. He's clearing faster because he's spending more time in the jungle overall.

I disagree, because again, if this was an issue pre- 4.20, we would have seen a decrease in the base damage of his ultimate. Fortunately we did not, and the reduction of its base damage on top of reducing devourer to feral flare numbers serves purely as a nerf that skirmisher's does not cover. Instead of pushing WW into other options such as trailblazer, poacher, and stalker's blade, he absolutely needs skrmisher to make up for the lack of damage he once had.

It wasn't an issue pre 20 because pre 20 you didn't have the opportunity to get an item that added almost 300 damage to a single ult during the early game. The closest that anything came was with the Feral Flare, which was very quickly nerfed for the exact same reason. It was giving too much at too early of a point in the game. Accordingly, Skirmisher's true damage has been changed from on hit to a burn DoT, and the magic damage has been dialed back a bit to make it more manageable. Skirmisher's isn't supposed to cover the nerf, it's supposed to change how it works alongside other factors. For instance, I was running Skirmisher/Devourer on Skarner and while it wasn't breaking the game, I still had to be careful who I fought and when, it was adding quite a bit of damage to what I could pump out at only a third of the way to max level. Just because one part of an item, or a champion, is nerfed does not mean something else needs to cover it, or else it's ruining the point of the nerf. And in all honesty, making it a burning DoT effect means that it's essentially recycling the old effect of Elder Lizard while combining with the stacking damage of the Feral Flare into one item. It's getting some fun stuff added on, not to compensate for weaknesses being made from the nerfs but to make it work in a unique way. Why are you so focused on his damage, though? A champion should bring more to the table than just damage, and there's still plenty of reason to take the other items if a player is trying to play a slightly safer, possibly more supportive oriented Warwick. It's BECAUSE everyone is so worried about his mass amount of damage that Riot is tightening up the reins. Take away his ability to take a carry down to under half their health with just his ult and Warwick players have to learn to play him in other roles because the overwhelming, unfair damage he had is gone. In it's place you now have to work with your teammates to better secure kills, and build tankier so he can do more in teamfights than just ult and run away.

Sure. Pick nocturne. pick up skirmishers and devourer. Proceed to fear your target for over 2 seconds at max rank while also being able to stay on top of the target. Pick Master Yi, use your ult, tap Q then E, proceed to obliterate your target. Just because it seems overwhelming, doesn't mean that other cases do not exist either. WW did the following. smte>R>Q, That is his entire kit, this is te same behavior exhibited by assassins and other glass cannons The only difference is you can't interrupt them as easily as you can WW.

I don't need to name someone who can do that damage with an ult, Master Yi does it just by tappng R, then E, and killing your entire team. It is extremely easy to ignore all of the weaknesses WW possesses.

You're talking to a Nocturne main. I know what he's capable of, you don't have to recite a strategy or build for me. But that fails to answer my question. A Nocturne ult does not do nearly as much as a Warwick ult does, and in order to kill someone he has to be able to stay on them for that long. Granted, he just got a rather nifty buff by gaining MS anytime he's heading towards a feared enemy, but that's only if they're either feared by a conveniently placed ally or by not flashing/dashing/blinking/leaping out of his tether.

Assassins still have to set up their kills. They can't just press one key and get a kill, it requires careful positioning, usually involving teamwork, to set them up to go on the crazy sprees they can go on.

You have still failed to answer my question adequately. Tell me one other jungler who, at level 6, was capable of unleashing over 500 damage on a single ult by pressing one key to do so. You can't, because Warwick was the only one to abuse the mechanics behind Skirmisher/Devourer to the extent that he did. Yes, if given enough time, a Yi or a Nocturne can do as much damage. But they need a few seconds longer to do so than a Warwick, they aren't healing for nearly as much, and they aren't locking anyone down and preventing them from retaliating while doing so. You're spouting about Nocturne's fear and Yi's E at max ranks, but I said level 6. Early game, which is where Warwick was tipping the balance of matches.

Not the late game. The early game.

So unless you can cough up a champion who was able to deal over 500 damage with a single keystroke, suppress a target to either get the kill themselves or to give it to a teammate, and stay healthy long enough to give out gank after gank while other junglers are having to back to heal, applying constant pressure, just don't even bother responding. Because for all your touting about how I'm not looking at the balance of everything, you're the one who's neglecting to look at the small things that are accomplished during the early game that are setting Warwick's teams up for success in the late game just to try and point out that other champions CAN deal as much damage as he does over time.

Sure they can. If given time, and if not disengaged before they can set themselves up. But not at level 6, not by pushing one button, and they can't put nearly the same sort of early game pressure as he would.

And that is why he got nerfed. If you don't like it, feel free to take it up with Riot. I'm sure they'd love to hear your theories on why Warwick getting nerfed was bad while the rest of us who understand where and why it happened to both him and to the Skirmisher/Devourer continue on our merry way and continue playing champions who use Devourer the same as we would otherwise.

Carefully stacking it up and having to work for that insane late game damage output instead of being given it for a measly 1500 gold and the mana used up for a single ult during the early game.

Bears Dont CareDec 12, 20141 votes

{quoted} snip

Trying to keep it short, again, you are far, far too focused upon his ultimate. If you are wiling to complain about it, what about Zed? His ultis just as effective at blowing people up, ad it provides him a means of escape, and it makes him invincible, and you must have a QSS to cleanse the effect or a zhonya's, just like with WW.

Some ultimates are meant to be powerful, to provide massive amounts of damage. In the case of WW, again, the issue was skirmisher and not him, and while WW may have been an issue in 1v1's, guess what? Its a team game, and that is the context that must be considered. Team gameplay wise, he was never a problem.

Otherwise, we should be suggesting that Amumu is a problem as well who has an even higher win rate percentage.

The only thing needed to dealw ith WW was to nerf the items, the current nerfs are far, far too great. Nerfing his AS steroid had nothing to do with gankig capability, that only made his clears slow and making him even easier to counter jungle. Lowering the base damage on his ult was unnecessary considering he never builds AD due to on hit effects being more important to him as an AAer.

Nerfing him might as well result innerfs to Fora, Yi, Tryndamere and NOcturne who could abuse the items just as hard.

WW has to use his entire kit to kill someone, no different from anyone else besides having less team fighting ability.

Cale017Dec 12, 20141 votes

You still aren't getting it, and if you still aren't in the face of me breaking down why his entire kit makes him unfairly oppressive, not just his ult, and in the face of both community outcry and Riot's statements then you simply never will. There's no reason to continue this.

Have fun out there. Especially now that you don't have to see Warwicks in every other match.

Bears Dont CareDec 12, 20141 votes

{quoted} You still aren't getting it, and if you still aren't in the face of me breaking down why his entire kit makes him unfairly oppressive, not just his ult, and in the face of both community outcry and Riot's statements then you simply never will. There's no reason to continue this.

Have fun out there. Especially now that you don't have to see Warwicks in every other match.

Except that the only thing "oppressive" about Warwick is solely his ultimate. His Q isn't an issue, and his AS steroid as well as his blood scent ability are not an issue either. Your argument is entirely revolving around his ultimate, surely you can see it.

You don't see WW every other match because they nerfed him so badly he is flat out unviable.

WW has a very slow clear speed amongst all jungle based champions. AS steroid nerf? Makes his clear speed even worse, its like trying to jungle as Shyvana without using your W. Ultimate base damage nerf? AGain, unnecessary, since devourer got nerfed and so did skirmisher.

Cale017Dec 12, 20141 votes

No, you are the one not seeing what my argument is. He has insane sustain, and whether or not he can clear camps as fast isn't as important as him being able to clear as consistently given how long he can stay in the jungle continuously early on.

For the third time, the final time, my argument isn't that his ult is overpowered. My argument is that his ult is providing him with too much on top of how much pressure he can apply at early levels because of his inherent sustain. The ult is just the bow on top of the gift that is the single easiest jungler in the entire game.

I cannot state it any more clearly than that and if you still refuse to pull your head out of you ass so you can hear something other than your own bullshit you can do so elsewhere because I'm well and thoroughly finished discussing this with you.

Again, have fun out there.

Bears Dont CareDec 12, 20141 votes

No, you are the one not seeing what my argument is. He has insane sustain, and whether or not he can clear camps as fast isn't as important as him being able to clear as consistently given how long he can stay in the jungle continuously early on.

Woah, that is very untrue and it leads me to believe you don't really understand the changes of the new jungle. The respawn timers on them are all 100 seconds. If WW is working on one camp while you've cleared yours, you can go into his jungle, steal his jungle monsters and push him far back in the game. Clear speed and sustain are critical.

For the third time, the final time, my argument isn't that his ult is overpowered. My argument is that his ult is providing him with too much on top of how much pressure he can apply at early levels because of his inherent sustain. The ult is just the bow on top of the gift that is the single easiest jungler in the entire game.

The ultimate is the only thing WW has that is strong abouthim. What will you do with a Q that is melee range? or a situation E? Or an AS W that has less effect due to most ADC's having thir own AS steroids?

You're saying it was the bow on his toolkit, okay, why aren't you discussing the rest of his toolkit?

I cannot state it any more clearly than that and if you still refuse to pull your head out of you ass so you can hear something other than your own bullshit you can do so elsewhere because I'm well and thoroughly finished discussing this with you.

Very cute, you get frustrated, and so you insult me, meanwhile you are so very stuck on a singular point you refuse to look at the rest. WW's ultimate was strong, because the rest of his kit his weak, and even then his ult could be dealt with and managed because his team fighting capability was poor and his ult could be interrupted.

What do you do when a Sion rushes in and blows up your team with his ult from close range? His hits very hard and sets up for another 1.5s stun thats an AOE.

Seriously, evaluate everytihng not just his strong ultimate.

Again, have fun out there.

I do, it is unfortunate you do not.

Cale017Dec 13, 20141 votes

I've dealt with a lot of hard headed people when it comes to this game but you absolutely take the cake.

Bravo.

There's no point in trying to repeat myself to someone who has shown that they clearly aren't even listening. Otherwise you'd have dropped the counterargument that my entire issue is based around his ult.

At the end of the day, if you were so much as half right then Riot wouldn't have nerfed him the way that they have. You're essentially trying to imply that you know better than every other player who voiced concerns, and better than even Riot.

If you were as good at seeing the bigger picture as you claim to be, you wouldn't be focusing solely on the times I use the word "ult" and would instead be reading everything I'm saying around it.

At this point the this thread is getting so long that it's slowing my phone down just to load.

For the final time, I'm done here. Yes, I insulted you, but only in response to the insults you've already given me earlier, and upon the insult you've given me just below the surface when not bothering to read anything I'm saying in it's entirety.

Good bye.

Bears Dont CareDec 13, 20141 votes

Long story short

majority is not right.

Another story short: yes, I am probably more qualified than you

Cale017Dec 13, 20142 votes

Careful there. This thread is getting pretty long but I'm still not sure if it can hold that ego of yours.

Tell you what. Come back with your summoner name saying Riot somewhere on it and maybe I'll have a reason to believe a word you say. Until then, you're no more qualified than I am. More than likely less so from the sheer arrogance dripping from your words.

Congrats. You're part of the reason the League community is looked down upon.

Selfish, arrogant, and has to impose their unfavored opinions on those around them in an effort to seem bigger than they really are.

But by all means keep posting. At this point placating you isn't even akin to beating a dead horse. It's just funny to watch you flail around throwing a tantrum and crying about how everyone else is wrong.

It really helps prove your point. Keep repeating it, maybe mommy might buy you that shiny toy if you cry enough for it.

IronChefBoyardeeDec 10, 20143 votes

you mean...you have to use teamwork in a team game now? Oh the humanity!

acehole76Dec 10, 20142 votes

just nerf the item is my point

DoubleDammitDec 10, 20142 votes

As a warwick top main since S2, these new changes have done nothing but frustrate me to no end. He was NEVER considered an overpowered champion in all my time playing him, being a niche jungler at best and an average/sub-tier laner. He only has 2 scaling abilities, one off of AD and one off of AP and has a conditional movespeed skill, otherwise no mobility besides his ultimate. After the pre-season jungle release, he finally found a way to be played only to be nerfed into oblivion due to overpowered jungle items. At first, with the ult cooldown nerf by adding +20 seconds to his level 1 and 2 ults (which hurts A LOT). Then by gutting his W, which has no hidden passives and is necessary to proc his passive during duels.

My question is, why not just remove the jungle item from triggering off his ult? His ult is his only powerful move (none of his abilities have hidden passives or scale with his relevant stats) and when people cry about it being overpowered, they fail to realize its a less than 2 second stun on a tremendous cooldown. Morganas snare is over a second longer and on a much shorter cooldown. Fiddle's fear is a longer cc. Skarner's ultimate is a longer snare, and he gets to reposition you. Nobody ever cried about Warwick until the new jungle release and now everybody has an opinion, due to one stupid jungle item. You've ruined top Warwick for everybody who used him (all 3 of us) and now you've ruined top Pantheon by gutting his base attack speed and I'm sure other undesirable changes to him too. While buffing Jax. This rebalancing department is a joke, catering the lowest common denominator of League (bronze/silver) and as such I'm just going to do what Riot wants us to do: play Lee sin or ranged carries. And fuck you Riot I'm not buying any skins.

SexyTaylorSwiftDec 12, 20141 votes

Fiddles fear does 0 damage and makes the enemy run away, so let's not include that in your list.

DoubleDammitDec 12, 20141 votes

{quoted} Fiddles fear does 0 damage and makes the enemy run away, so let's not include that in your list.

2 of Warwicks abilities deal no damage and one has an 80 second cd. Fiddle has a 3 second fear (on a 16~ second cd) and 3 damaging abilities. The fact it does no damage is irrelevant, if you complain about a cc and damage then add Malzahar, Malphite, Blitzcrank, Yasuo to your list as well

SexyTaylorSwiftDec 13, 20141 votes

Fiddles does not have a three second fear.

The Storm DragonDec 10, 20141 votes

They don't want WW to be strong until they rework him because his kit is too simplistic, it has no capacity to fail.

AtheosisXDec 10, 20141 votes

I've seen lots of Warwicks fail.

AMYS GRAVEDec 10, 20141 votes

they need easy champs to play for people to learn. if they gut champions power because they are too simplistic to play then you are directly giving more of an advantage to experienced players who know more complicated champions. you need simple champions who can compete to learn the basic mechanics of the game.

Firefang WarwickDec 10, 20141 votes

The funny thing is the ulti nerfs did hardly anything to jungle Warwick. Adc's and most mages will still continue to get one shotted by it because the damage nerf is no where significant enough to combat the amount of on hit damage he gets from the jungle item and wit's end alone.

The cooldown nerf on his ulti hurt lanewick a lot. The damage nerf just made things harder unless you take smite and build the jungle item anyways.

The W nerf is a huge change because it hurts his early clear and his late game team utility a lot.

These nerfs did nothing to address the actual problems with Warwick. They need to fix the bug with his ulti that has existed since mid season 3 that allows his ulti damage + on hits to continue through QSS, CC and even death. Lack of counterplay is the issue here.

Meep ManDec 10, 20141 votes

Warwick needs a rework anyway. His ultimate is the definition of Abuse Spell. Any new on-hit effect can cause Warwick to become OP. Therefore, Warwick needs to be reworked so his kit can't limit what is in the game/make him have to be nerfed everytime a new on-hit item is added.

Firefang WarwickDec 10, 20141 votes

It's more than just his ultimate.

He is a ridiculously binary champion in general that has needed a rework for a very long time now. You would think if all it took was a slight change to the jungle and a new item to bring him up to a 60% winrate and a 95% ban rate you would put him on top priority for a kit rework.

Changing a bunch of numbers is not a fix to these type of champions it's a bandaid that is going to get peeled off the next time something similar happens down the road.

Kuroi86Dec 10, 20141 votes

They had a paper kit for him at one point, but scraped it because it wouldn't work. He's hardly low priority, but they need a solid kit design before they can push forward. Any rework is likely going to change three out of his five abilities, not to mention the VU that will come with it.

DirewolfiezDec 11, 20141 votes

Can't honestly say I was sad to see it go. Sounded like they were just going to make him another gap-closing bruiser, and we already have enough of those. I don't play WW that much, since I don't jungle, but making him another generic gap closing bruiser just felt wrong.

Kuroi86Dec 11, 20141 votes

I think that was part of it. They want him to have a definitive personality and still keep elements of his kit. About the only aspect I think will DEFINITELY remain of the paper kit they had is changing WW ult from a point and click to a dash which then turns into the suppression ult if it hits a champ.

DirewolfiezDec 11, 20141 votes

Dammit. Really getting sick of Riot trying to combat the mobility creep by creating even more mobility, it just screws over immobile champs even more than before.

Kuroi86Dec 12, 20141 votes

Would you rather it remain point and click suppression? Besides, from what I've seen, if he misses his ult, that's it, it goes on cool down and he's out of MAJOR damage for at least a minute.

KillstradoDec 10, 20141 votes

How can an item be broken with one champion, but not the rest hmmmmmm sounds fishy to me guy who can't play Warwick

acehole76Dec 10, 20141 votes

How can an item be broken with one champion, but not the rest hmmmmmm sounds fishy to me guy who can't play Warwick

it was broken on yi too

KillstradoDec 10, 20141 votes

is it broken on every champ HUH dickwads, NO its not so therefore its not the fucking item but the individuals that it makes so dangerous

AMYS GRAVEDec 10, 20141 votes

it's also broken on fiora, and lulu, and jayce since the item grants hella on hit damage. ww wasn't broken until the new jungle item made him so.

SookoDec 13, 20141 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCrv01ESmcg

VenowolfApr 21, 20151 votes

WW needs a emergency rework his kit is bad and toxic at the moment, He is a jungler but he no have a gank pre 6, a tan without no AoE dmg, Mana hunger, his W have a lot of hidden power, can use his E to run away (a skill create to chase not to run away), Ult have no counterplay if he reach a isolate enemy, but he is very reliable on his ult, also his ult make his vulberable because supress him and not reduce the dmg incoming, make him a easily target on tf, and the list goes on with devourer, challenging smite nerfs...

I'm Warwick main all the season 4 (Feral flare time) and he have a huge power, maybe so OP but now after the 4.21 patch he are overnerf, Devourer and challneging smite too, so its time to fix. He its only viable on low elos, or good to smurf bronze accounts IMO.

Has a insane sustain and is very good duelist but his weakness are more than his strenght, in low elo WW its a powerful GOD, but in high elo is a thrash, He really need a rework too fix his core problems and toxic kit.

For me He needs this to stay healthy:

-Remove W on his kit, replace with a skill that allow him gank pre 6.
-Make his E works only towards enemies (like Vayne passive, Soraka Janna)
-Add more interactive gameplay on his E (passive and active part instead a toogle)
-Turn him R into a skillshot like Sejuanis Q, Gragas E or Malphite R to add counterplay.
-Give a damage reduction when he supress an enemy to reduce the vulnerability.
-A CD penalty if he uses his R to escape to minimizes his escapes chances,
-Fix his mana cost and mana pool.