Thresh Newbie Needs Advice

ToxicThunder·Jun 7, 2016·2 votes·1,786 views

Hi everybody!

I'm fairly new to play, but I've been watching for years. (Only really watched ADC) I've been trying my hand at Thresh as my main support and I've been pretty good with him in bot games on intermediate.

My issue is that when I play regular 5v5 games, the ADC I'm paired with always yells at me for minion kills. Which I understand is not the priority for supports. However, most ADC in early levels cannot get the kills needed to carry through a support. Then I get behind and start losing because I have no money to upgrade and inadvertently feed my laners.

So, for most of the games, I try and get some minion kills to fill my coffers and help me succeed. And it works. My thresh can get pretty tanky when I start out getting money and aggressively buying.

So my question is this: how do I get more money to help myself and the team without killing any minions? Am I completely at the mercy of a random ADC? I usually go for The Ancient Coin as my startup, too, so I have a little money buff in the beginning.

Thanks for reading! Looking forward to some thoughts and respectful discussion on the topic.

ToxicThunder

49 Comments

SylverblitzJun 7, 20162 votes

OK going to assume this isn't a troll... Taking minions from the ADC is a really bad idea. The C in ADC is Carry and it's hard to carry if your support is starving you of money needed for damage items by taking minions. You, as a support, have to be content with the passive from money generating items and masteries for the most part. If they ADC is bad then that's unfortunate but the only way people can learn to be better is by being bad at first.

Concentrate on harassing the other team's ADC when you can while making sure their support can't get free hits on your ADC as best as you can. Walk around as though you are looking to hook them but only use it if you know it's likely to land and you can punish them in some way. You don't always have to use your ability to push people back and a lot of the times they will play more aggressively when you have used your hook because they know they are safe for X amount of seconds.

ToxicThunderJun 7, 20161 votes

Not troll. Didn't know Toxic was a bad thing until recently. (Newbie) This makes a lot more sense. I think I've gotten stuck with a few bad adc's and have suffered. I land most of my hooks, but I find that my ADC is usually too Timid to go in for the kill. Not all, mind, but a fair few. I've killed a lot of them myself because my ADC turned tail and ran at full health. I guess I just have to keep slogging until I get better.

SylverblitzJun 7, 20161 votes

You have to think about it. Sometimes you can land a hook and even if your ADC is full health if you landed it close to their side there is a low chance of a kill and you risk being over extended. If you can kill them, get away easily and the ADC is clearly backing off then go for it. Some players are more passive or afraid of making mistakes so it's understandable. Try asking how they like to play at the start so you can adjust.

I read about people not using lantern and that isn't a new thing. Some players genuinely don't know that they can right-click on it to move to Thresh whereas others can panic and Flash past it or run past it. As with the other thing above you can ask them if they ignore it once because they may appreciate it.

ToxicThunderJun 7, 20161 votes

i have another general-ish question: why is it that with League people get so hung up on "how it's supposed to be played?" Even at very low levels. For example, if you're a crap ADC and can't grab kills, why turn around and yell at the sup for getting kills?

It seems to me that the inflexibility of the league set up sometimes leads to more failures than successes. I understand that the top/mod/bot and jung makes the most sense. But does anyone know of any resources that further explain the nuances? Why do ADC and Sup always go bottom instead of shaking it up and go top?

Sorry if these are really dumb/starter questions, but I really enjoy this game and want to know as much as I can.

Thanks!

DefectivDetectivJun 7, 20161 votes

{quoted}

i have another general-ish question: why is it that with League people get so hung up on "how it's supposed to be played?" Even at very low levels. For example, if you're a crap ADC and can't grab kills, why turn around and yell at the sup for getting kills?

It seems to me that the inflexibility of the league set up sometimes leads to more failures than successes. I understand that the top/mod/bot and jung makes the most sense. But does anyone know of any resources that further explain the nuances? Why do ADC and Sup always go bottom instead of shaking it up and go top?

Sorry if these are really dumb/starter questions, but I really enjoy this game and want to know as much as I can.

Thanks!

ADCs tend to feel like everyone owes the world to them, this tends to lead to them whining and crying when they don't get it, and I'm not sure why. In higher level play, sometimes the bot lane (ADC and Support) will switch with the top-laner, but it takes co-ordination between Top and Bot to actually work. Most people would only want to do it when they have a really bad matchup, like if the Blue team top laner was Tryndamere, and the Red team top laner was Teemo, it might be better for Blue bot lane to go top, and Top to go bot, as it removes the bad matchup from the equation.

ToxicThunderJun 7, 20161 votes

I have noticed a lot of whining from a lot of people. But alas, the Internet. I also play Garen a fair amount, and people complain that I don't move the top quickly enough even though I'm usually 1v2 up there. But that's another thread.

DefectivDetectivJun 7, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I have noticed a lot of whining from a lot of people. But alas, the Internet. I also play Garen a fair amount, and people complain that I don't move the top quickly enough even though I'm usually 1v2 up there. But that's another thread.

If you wanna play together sometime, I'm down :D

ToxicThunderJun 7, 20161 votes

Of course!! Please friend me and we can play sometime. I am always looking for respectful people to play with and get to know. I'm on almost every day and way too much on the weekends. :)

DefectivDetectivJun 7, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Of course!! Please friend me and we can play sometime. I am always looking for respectful people to play with and get to know. I'm on almost every day and way too much on the weekends. :)

Done ☺

The Last BalladJun 7, 20161 votes

The reason adc and support go bot is to better control the dragon, which is pretty impactful. And unless you have a top laner that can 1v2 easily(cough Zyra cough) it is generally a bad idea.

ToxicThunderJun 7, 20161 votes

The dragon seems to be a popular place for me to die. I place wards, but the other team managed to catch us a fair amount. And then death, because it's usually 4v2 somehow.

The Last BalladJun 20, 20161 votes

try doing it over the wall if on blue, or by where the scuttle crab ward spawns if red. Also pink the tribush(blue)/river bush(red) to give more permanent control.

SylverblitzJun 7, 20161 votes

It's what has been established to work for various reasons such as dragon control. If a big change is to happen that goes against the norm then it is unlikely to be by anyone but the pros. I could never understand why some ADCs would get so upset over a support taking a kill by accident but it can really affect them. Some champions really need the early lead and that kill you take could be the difference between winning or losing the lane. There are some supports that require more aggressive play early (Leona springs to mind) but even the best support can't carry the team whereas a fed ADC can make a huge difference.

ADC and support go bottom for better dragon control as far as I understand it. As someone else has mentioned they sometimes swap to top lane in very high level play (lane swaps in LCS) depending on lane matchups but for the most part you will not see it. Besides that I can only say that it is just how it is right now and unlikely to change.

Nothing dumb about asking questions if you don't know the answers.

ToxicThunderJun 7, 20161 votes

Makes sense. I think the crux for me is that I hate standing around and doing nothing for the first part of the game. Letting someone else jump in and do everything makes me feel quite useless. Until mid/late game, when I reap to weep and start really landing hooks and getting assists.

QuannariJun 7, 20162 votes

Hey ToxicThunder,

Glad you are trying your hand at Thresh! He is one of my favorite champions. A lot of newer players tend to shy away from him because of the complexity of his kit, even though it can be extremely rewarding, so I'm glad you are taking the time to learn him!

In regards to gold generation, the "Bandit" mastery in the "Cunning" tree is basically a necessity on any support. I personaly like to start Relic Shield item 3302 as my starting item on Thresh for a couple reasons. The early flat health makes me a tad more durable for early engages/skirmishes. Thresh has a very powerful level 2 all in when coordinated appropriately with your ADC. Getting an early lead from a good fight can snowball your lane and allow you to provide lane pressure, essentially scaring your opponent to not even want to fight. From there, it gives you the ability to zone. I also like Relic Shield because of the Targon stack sustain. Thresh doesn't have any healing or spammable shields in his kit to help sustain his lane partner. The Targon stacks provide a means to help your ADC stain in lane longer by healing them a bit every so often. This does take practice and communicate though because Thresh does not benefit from the "Execute" on the item since he is classified as a ranged champion, which can make last hitting for the stacks frustrating at times. Be sure to let your ADC know your intentions and that they still get the kill gold when you use a Targon stack so that they don't flame you for stealing CS.

Ancient coin item 3301 is also a viable option that other people like on Thresh. This is a nice starting item when you a still trying to get accustomed to Thresh's overall kit. It increases your base mana regen in case you habitually try spamming your abilities, but it also allows you to not have to worry about CS-ing so you can focus on trades and positioning instead.

As to "being at the mercy of a random ADC", there really isn't a "fix-all solution". Definitely always do your best. Observe or even ask what their play habits are. Would they rather you play aggressive with flays and hooks for kills? Are they more concerned about merely farming and would rather you just trade and provide zone control? Or are they constantly pushing and would like you to play back line in lantern range? These things can always change game to game and are mostly reliant on your ADC. And sometimes you are paired with a bad ADC. Again, just do your best and use discretion.

Roaming is also very strong on Thresh. You can use it to escape your lane if it's going badly, or if you snowballed bot lane, it allows you to help snowball another lane.

Thresh Thresh is a playmaker; so make plays! :) Thresh

If you have any questions or would just like to learn more or just have fun playing matches, just friend and message me or comment here.

Respectfully, Quannari

ToxicThunderJun 7, 20161 votes

I'm totally blown away by the respectful and helpful discourse on this thread. Thanks to all!

Now, when you say that he's a strong roam, I was under the impression that the sup was pretty much tied directly to the ADC in the bottom lane. Can you educate me on when it's a good idea to roam, and how you keep from getting caught out? (I usually get in a 4v1 or some nonsense and it doesn't end well...) I know that flash can help, but any other tips?

QuannariJun 8, 20161 votes

Thresh's kit makes him a strong roamer. Level 3 gives him access to all of his abilities so he can catch people out of position while at the same time bring more people to the fight. Knowing when to roam can be tricky and really just comes down to game sense and practice. When you roam, you need to have a plan/some specific intentions. Walking around doing nothing without a plan can be a big disadvantage because you lose lane/map pressure and also miss out on level experience. You want to make sure that your ADC is in a good position for you to leave briefly, and communicate that with them. If you have a lane advantage, your ADC might be in a decent position to merely farm under tower while you do a quick roam, as long as you have some vision on their bot lane. It wouldn't be good for him to be farming under tower and have the enemy bot surprise you in river.

Vision is key. Check your minimap often; not just for your lane, but all lanes. For example, if you noticed the enemy jungler just showed up in his top side jungle, then you can go aggressive in lane without fear of a jungle gank, or you can roam a bit to place a ward a deeper into enemy territory in order to prevent future ganks.

A pretty common time to roam would be after you and your ADC both recall. As your ADC is walking to lane, you can swing by mid and try to blow some enemy summoner spells or even pick up a kill for the team. Then as you make your way back bot, get some ward coverage. A little trick you can do with thresh to prevent "bush baits": his lantern provides a small radius of vision, so if you are going to try to ward a risky area, stay back and throw out a lantern into the bush before walking forward to place your ward.

It takes time and practice, and eventually it will become natural as you understand deeper game mechanics and timing.

CubíxJun 7, 20161 votes

Hey, I play a good amount of thresh and I prefer to get the bandit mastery and get ancient coin for my support item. Most people go for relic shield but its all for preference. you should be getting I think its 5 gold per cs, and upgrade to talismens of ascension gets you i think its 7 gold or something I could be wrong. It helps out early I also recommending staying in lane as long as you can, I aim for lvl 6-8 for my first back and grab sightstone and another item.

The other thing would just get solid pulls and feed your ADC with kills but I cant promise that happens everytime.

for reference this is a thresh game I played yesterday http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2208912047/204192249?tab=overview

Cucked VirjhïnJun 7, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Hey, I play a good amount of thresh and I prefer to get the bandit mastery and get ancient coin for my support item. Most people go for relic shield but its all for preference. you should be getting I think its 5 gold per cs, and upgrade to talismens of ascension gets you i think its 7 gold or something I could be wrong. It helps out early I also recommending staying in lane as long as you can, I aim for lvl 6-8 for my first back and grab sightstone and another item.

The other thing would just get solid pulls and feed your ADC with kills but I cant promise that happens everytime.

for reference this is a thresh game I played yesterday http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2208912047/204192249?tab=overview

build a full ruby sightstone and then as youre nearing full build you can sell it to get a better tank item

ToxicThunderJun 7, 20161 votes

Can someone explain to me why the ADC needs more money in the first place? What good does a weak support do for the team? Last game I played, my ADC was 1/11/9 at the end and decided to leave me on bottom by myself for about 20mins because I killed three minions. So, naturally, I did just as poorly and lost a tower to the two laners against me. I was behind on levels from the start. Is this just bad luck, or is there a strategy to leaving a sup by themselves?

CubíxJun 7, 20161 votes

ADC's buy more expensive Items, usually, with Supports they dont need items as much due to have some sort of extra utility compared to needing more damage, thresh has hard CC or soraka has heals, etc.

ToxicThunderJun 7, 20161 votes

Thanks. When do people actually start grabbing the lantern? I throw it out all the time and no one ever grabs it. I do a lot of yelling as people die running past my lantern. Is that a higher level thing?

CubíxJun 7, 20161 votes

lol I'm in gold and sometimes they still don't, although I have a plat friend who always grabs it even if I don't say anything.

The Last BalladJun 7, 20161 votes

Sometimes it is hard to grab (but the ` key helps with this by ignoring minions) or see, but generally its just players stupidity.

Sightless66Jun 7, 20161 votes

Can someone explain to me why the ADC needs more money in the first place?

As a rule, gold is most effective when concentrated on a single person because items scale with each other. AD carry items in particular scale very well with each other as the game goes on, so it is good to concentrate gold on the AD carry. The combination of attack speed, AD, crit and armor penetration gives a huge amount of potential damage when all the items are completed.

What good does a weak support do for the team?

The reason you pick a support is specifically because they can be strong while low on gold. If I'm playing thresh, I don't need money to do my job. The hooks, lantern and CC all work fine whether I'm rich or whether I'm poor. I don't need gold.

I would strongly advise against taking last hits as a support. You're just not the best person to have the gold on. If you need gold, then you either kill the enemy laner, or you roam mid/top and kill them instead (be sure you understand when you can leave the ADC alone safely before attempting this).

ToxicThunderJun 7, 20161 votes

How do you keep your mama up if you have no gold? I rely on items to boost my mana and armor. Is there something I'm missing?

SylverblitzJun 7, 20161 votes

You don't spam your abilities. Mana management is part of the game for all positions depending on the champion. Try to save abilities for times when you are sure they will be impactful or guarantee a kill / objective. Not always of course but if you play this way you should find yourself with very few mana issues.

Sightless66Jun 7, 20161 votes

You need to learn how to use your abilties only at the opportune times. A very, very common mistake at lower level play is overusing abilities. It is common to throw abilties when you are very unlikely to get an advantage from it. Learn to only cast abilties at their most useful times.

You should not feel the need to buy mana on Thresh. It is nice, and can be useful, but you should not feel hampered if you can't. Most of my thresh builds include no additional mana.

Besides, if you are setting up kills and getting assists, and if you are using your gold-generation item, you should have more than enough gold to afford the basic necessities. If you need a mana crystal or glacial shroud to function, you will be able to easily afford it.

ToxicThunderJun 7, 20161 votes

I've never thought about it like this before. I always just threw everything I had at them. But this makes much more sense. I think that I've probably picked up some bad habits from my gameplay as garen. I will try a more subtle and controlled approach next time I play with a solid ADC. Thanks for the advice!

ToxicThunderJun 7, 20161 votes

Thanks! I will watch this when I get home. On mobile now and it's not great for vids.

CubíxJun 7, 20161 votes

its not a video, its just the stats from the match, you can check my build and order of purchases as well as runes and masteries. I wish I had a vid for you though, sorry. hope this still helps edit: forgot to mention it also shows ability order as well

ToxicThunderJun 7, 20161 votes

My bad. Just looked at it. i am very impressed that you are the same level and money level as everyone else with so few minion kills. One of my last games I had a ton of minion kills.

http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2208963728/210120675?tab=overview

Any advice? I died quite a bit, mostly due to lane feeds.

Thanks so much!

CubíxJun 7, 20161 votes

hmm, the best thing is upgrading ancient coin all the way early because you'll get more money, I also recommend roaming to other lanes, if my ADC is in a good spot I like to roam mid and gank to get others fed. Also thresh strives well in teamfights so I catch up in levels later on.

ToxicThunderJun 7, 20161 votes

This is very true, and something I have noticed as well. I do find that his ultimate is not that great, but I probably don't have enough experience to really make it count yet.

CubíxJun 7, 20161 votes

Yeah the ult has potential to be great, one tactic I use is to flash in with the ult and then flay, pull, etc. its a good way to start a teamfight

ToxicThunderJun 7, 20161 votes

That's genius. And something I never would have thought of. I'll be using this.

Cucked VirjhïnJun 7, 20161 votes

buy relic shield it increase your passive gold and builds into face of the mountain (tank items for tank supprts) . also turn off auto attacks if you 100% main sup as it will eliminate any chance of accidently csing. You really only get ancient coin on non tank supports like roka

The Last BalladJun 7, 20161 votes

non tank and non poke supports you mean

ToxicThunderJun 7, 20161 votes

I don't know what this means. Can you explain more?

The Last BalladJun 20, 20161 votes

Aka Soraka, Janna, and the like who, instead of looking to absorb damage outright, or deal it, look to buff their carry. Janna, no matter what the client tries to tell you, is better if you are passive in lane, rather than using your slow or knock up to gain gold. 8-15 gold for 40/90+ mana, or 4-7 gold just for being near a minion? Thresh also could use the coin, as last hitting with him is hard if you are competing with the adc(because they can be stupid about letting you get gold, even if you getting gold means that they will too..). But if you can last hit with him the relic is much better.

Mysticman89Jun 20, 20161 votes

I think spelltheifs is still commonly regarded as better even on raka/janna and their ilk, which is part of why the coin line is getting buffed next patch. The potential gold output from spelltheif is better than the coin line, and besides that the extra ap is useful for bigger heals/shields.

If you feel compelled to kill minions, then you really should be rolling with relic shield though.

(That said Raka is actually pretty poke-y since she needs to in order to get her health back [and should be poking anyway since she can get her health back], and Janna in principle should be shielding herself and poking with autos [you're correct that q w shouldn't be used to poke]. I'm an oddball janna main who does go with coin, but that's more for the talisman late, and the vast majority of high elo janna mains do opt for spelltheif.)

The Last BalladJun 29, 20161 votes

Raka also is helped out by the +10 health per minion kill and the extra health regeneration. I honestly didn't even know anyone took spellthief's on her at all...

Mysticman89Jun 29, 20161 votes

The bulk of builds on probuilds for raka feature spellthiefs (eventually becoming eye of watchers), although theres are a couple builds that end with talisman so coin isn't completely non-viable.

Raka's Q spam gets her rejuvenation (provided she lands it) which is much better than the trickle of health the coin line offers, plus you get more gold from said poke than the coin line, plus the damage from Q is non negligible (particularly if leveled), so the mana regen and extra AP makes spellthief line prone to be better.

MacanimusJun 7, 20161 votes

As a Thresh Main myself, I understand where you come from with these issues. First off I would suggest starting relic because it gives more gold usually than coin and gives tankier stats. If an adc you are teamed with is having trouble csing than you can help them with relic. If you are having trouble with gold or falling behind in lane or during the rest of the game I would suggest roaming. If you were to walk up the river to mid in the early levels you could make the game a lot easier by getting a kill or getting the opposing mid laner's flash. This will allow your mid laner to have the advantage. If you are having problems with an adc I would suggest keeping a cool head and trying to focus on your other team members. This does not mean to completely ignore your adc but to just give them space and for them to calm down. The best thing you can do is to not flame or harass back.

Hope this helps and good luck!

ToxicThunderJun 7, 20161 votes

What do you usually buy after relic? And what spells do you go with? I have heal and usually one random one, depending on how I feel. When you roam, do you need flash to get away? I'm worried about being ganged up on and feeding.

And as for flaming, I am a firm "fight them, not each other." I believe in respectful gameplay. :)

GrashnimJun 7, 20161 votes

Thresh: Land Q, make them QQ.

MacanimusJun 7, 20161 votes

My build with thresh usually goes the following. Starting buy: item 3302 item 2003 x3 Second back(Usually): item 2049 and more pots and possibly a pink Then go item 2303 and boots pref item 3158 Build into item 3110 or item 3190 Then build the other. If you are running the mastery with 45% cdr you will have it. For summoner spells I would go summoner 4 summoner 3 and take summoner 14 for exh if you feel like you can win lane hard

ToxicThunderJun 7, 20161 votes

That looks pretty similar to what I build. I guess the key is to keep playing and get more experience and try different things. Thanks for the help! If you'd like, please friend me and we can play some games sometime.

ToxicThunderJun 8, 20161 votes

Thanks for all help and advice everybody!! Tried a lot of it last game and got an A+ on Thresh for the first time ever. You guys rock!