People going crazy about Maokai rework like it's the biggest thing ever happened

Valyrian Shadow·Feb 25, 2017·34 votes·3,908 views

Why do people get so mad over the Maokai rework? He could definitely need a little work here and there and I'm sure they will find a good spot for him, Riot has been very consistent (that is to say not perfect) with their class updates so far. Also, I see every hater relating Maokai being a "too general" pick to Lee Sin. Yes, Lee is good with almost every composition, but where does it say he won't get little work in the diver update at the end of the year? He most definitely suits this class as he likes to jump into the enemy team onto a high priority target, so it would make sense that they will do something for him as well, but you people need to stop acting like the biggest crybabies, how about you get a job at Riot first, I'm sure any of you folk would be perfect for this job and do it much better than any other Rioter kappa

58 Comments

AhristocatsFeb 25, 201731 votes

Because you can use Riot's reasoning on why maokai needs a rework to a lot of champions

and those champions will never be reworked while they're as cancer as maokai

DrCyanideFeb 25, 201718 votes

Everyone brings up one point of their reasoning for reworking Maokai. They always forget the other parts:

High Power, Low Satisfaction - Currently, we believe there are major mechanics and abilities on Maokai that offer significant power with low understanding and appreciation, such as the % Damage Resist on his Ultimate. Expect work towards either coalescing this ambient power into more noticeable moments, or removable of the ability/mechanic entirely in favor of something with greater clarity.

Rewarding Gameplay Mastery - As one of the lowest Mastery champions as far as win rate improvement over games played, there's very little reward offered to players who take the time to learn Maokai’s current kit. We believe a compelling part of the League of Legends experience is the path towards mastering a champion, and this should be appropriately rewarded. Currently we feel most of the tanks in our game have fallen a bit short here. Expect Maokai’s kit to offer more meaningful decisions around how to optimize his abilities.

I fully agree on the generalist statement applying to Lee Sin, but I don't think the"low satisfaction" and "low mastery" fit.

AhristocatsFeb 25, 201716 votes

Those reasons are all subjectives, riot could say "we want to change maokai for the sake of change" it would have been the same The generalist reason is the only objective reason

DrCyanideFeb 25, 201711 votes

Mastery curve is every bit as objective as generalist, if not more so since they can compare win rates over games played to all champions.

Even if you crop it down to just those 2 points people are forgetting half the points.

AhristocatsFeb 25, 201711 votes

{quoted}

Mastery curve is every bit as objective as generalist,

k, keep lee broken in high elo then https://i.gyazo.com/ca79c0e837c6af608f10981caa278772.png

DrCyanideFeb 25, 20171 votes

I'm fine with Lee getting changed, but there needs to be another reason to back up that change.

kile147Feb 25, 20171 votes

Is he really that strong in high elo? I am not disagreeing with you but most of the data I see suggests that he has a fairly average win rate even at high elo.

5000000000000000Feb 25, 20171 votes

I think he's looking at just the master tier win rate (there's a check mark in the top center). Most data compiling websites usually just look at Diamond+ win rate by default.

AhristocatsFeb 25, 201712 votes

He has 55% win rate in master

with the 3rd most popularity 3k games is a big sample to judge that this win rate is not ok

Papa AndreiFeb 25, 20174 votes

Devils advocate here. This could be he is fun to play, so a lot of people like to play/master him. He is reliable, so be damage or tank a good lee will always be useful and can make stuff happen. If you have around 3K people one tricking/maining him, they will eventually reach Diamon/Masters and thus inflate win rations.

AhristocatsFeb 25, 201712 votes

i am ok with lee having a high pick rate

i am not ok with him having 55% win rate as a generalist

Papa AndreiFeb 25, 20173 votes

That is a Generalist issue in itself. If the Jack of all trades can do a job better than someone who was designed to do that job, there is a huge issue. Generalist should always underperform when they are faced with a specialist, which really isn't the case with Mao. Lee, Jhin and others.

AhristocatsFeb 25, 20179 votes

Thresh is actually balanced

his generalist ability is balanced by trash base stats and 20 sec cd spells

Papa AndreiFeb 26, 20172 votes

Exactly what I mean, he is a generalist, but Janna has better shields then him, Blitz has better catch potential, Leona has better lockdown, But none of them can do all the jobs. Thus he is a generalist, and thus he is balanced.

Gregor GysiFeb 26, 20171 votes

Lee has a 51.8% winrate in NA master.

That seems very fair to me considering how Lee Sin's winrate over all regions in Dia+ is only 49.2% (and even lower below). Also keep in mind that masters tier has a too little samplesize and therefore there are big discrepancies in winrate between different regions.

chipndip1Feb 25, 20174 votes

So what was that shitty Sona rework when this is being said about Maoki?

5000000000000000Feb 25, 20171 votes

Wasn't that also about invisible power, kinda like Maokai ultimate? The "high power, low satisfaction" thing?

chipndip1Feb 25, 20175 votes

Expression of skill extremely low
Satisfaction of kit very low

They do a mini-rework. Result?

Expression of skill even lower
Satisfaction of kit still low

But let's say this about Maoki.

5000000000000000Feb 25, 20171 votes

Which update are you talking about? I thought you were talking about 4.13. Because that change definitely did not lower the skill floor or skill cap, and definitely improved kit satisfaction by making the power windowed. You don't give a small bump in power over indefinite duration, but rather a significant increase in power over a short duration. That also adds a bit to the skill floor and skill cap.

chipndip1Feb 25, 20174 votes

Initial rework didn't do much for expression of skill on Sona. It only increased risk of death. Also, there's barely any skill satisfaction in her outside of high ap builds, which supports aren't going to build in the first place.

Mini-rework made it easier to play Sona because her spells gain uptime to the point of overlapping casts, thus lowering her skill floor even more.

But let's throw around "diversity" and "mastery" and "hardcore gamerz" whenever we get interviewed.

5000000000000000Feb 25, 20171 votes

Increasing risk increases difficulty by definition, and learning to play around that risk is a part of skill floor/skill cap. The CDR from her ult ranks just makes it easier to play, I guess. That's a fair point.

chipndip1Feb 25, 20174 votes

Not in an appreciable way more than it's a "We made a shitty kit that can just hang back and spam buttons all day. Quick, force a weakness on her...like making her insanely squishy at unreasonable ranges!" sort of way. It's a shitty design concept that makes her a low-elo stomper more than a champ worth mastering when standing beside Nami, which is basically "Better Sona".

If she had more potency at those ranges, it'd be fine, but because she's all aoes and auto-targeted, her potency per individual has to be low as a snake belly. She could use a game play update.

NymzoFeb 26, 20172 votes

There's also the fact that her brainless gameplay ruins her theme of being an aura musical support.

Hell, fucking Lùcio is a good example of a good aura support.

Sona is just an ''Udyr'' at bot lane.

SirLapseFeb 26, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Not in an appreciable way more than it's a "We made a shitty kit that can just hang back and spam buttons all day. Quick, force a weakness on her...like making her insanely squishy at unreasonable ranges!" sort of way. It's a shitty design concept that makes her a low-elo stomper more than a champ worth mastering when standing beside Nami, which is basically "Better Sona".

If she had more potency at those ranges, it'd be fine, but because she's all aoes and auto-targeted, her potency per individual has to be low as a snake belly. She could use a game play update.

I would argue the older Sona was harder to play because you had to harass extremely often in order to succeed. If it were in this meta then quite honestly Zyra and Malz would eat her alive and we wouldn't be seeing anyone other than dedicated Sona mains playing her. While that sounds fine, a majority of the reason I enjoy supporting is because I get to play this new Sona who value-wise scales much harder than old Sona (old Sona didn't have ultimate levels boosting her values, but by the time you max Q it actually does more damage than the old one).

Her Q has priority when hitting champions so I bully people pretty easily. Nami is more about catching the opponent out. If you were speaking of Karma instead, then I'd understand. But even then, Karma is more about high base values and her Q can be blocked by minions vs. Sona who can just skip past that. I cannot tell you how many people unsuspectingly walk up only to get Q'd for almost a fifth of their health. Not sure what you mean by potency because the old Sona's range was actually something you needed to learn, both for the player and the opponent.

Old Sona had lower base armor, lower base health and lower health growth per level. Not sure what you meant by "forcing" a weakness that was always present on her. They buffed her E which was in terrible need of an update imo because it was well...there. It didn't make any impact on my games considering every support with a speed boost was marginally outclassing Sona's. It didn't align too well with the consistency Riot has had for "weak early, strong late" and "strong early but falls off." Sona was weak early with really strong harass but didn't scale into the game really well, so the change was definitely for the better in terms of game health.

As for the topic at hand, Maokai is a generalist tank. It matters more for Mao because tanks in general ALL DO THE SAME THING. We had this same issue before mage update where "the best damage value mage" would be directly dictating the meta. You see Corki now who has that but he's not the only champion used everywhere like we would've seen in the past. Top lane if I see a tank it's either: Maokai, Poppy, Shen or Nautilus. 4 choices out of how many? I don't even see Malphite or Trundle as often as I should be. Carry top laners are more popular in queue, so the chances you'll even see a single tank in top lane is lower than average. There's just no variety when you can just pick the best thing there is. Difference with Lee Sin is that there's more than just Lee Sin in the jungle, both in solo queue and in pro play. Lee is not the best possible pick you can make.

Pros for Lee Sin: -Probably one of the most fun junglers--most people will tell you this when they pick Lee even if they're terrible with him -High mobility -Can turn a teamfight in one kick -Not hard to learn but has a high skill ceiling

Cons: -His late game is actually hard to play. The entire game is played around ending it early so you DON'T have to play in that setting. Higher elo games all end sooner so playing for early strengths is better (i.e. Elise, Evelynn, Shaco) -Landing Q is extremely important and Lee Sins who do not execute "secure plays" like R>QQ tend to lose their team the entire game. The lower elo you go, the more likely you are to find a Lee who kicks the enemy away or puts the most dangerous person on the enemy team RIGHT NEXT TO YOUR CARRY. -That's literally it.

When you have that many pros and the only con after getting high experience is "harder to play when your champion is made to prevent the hard part," of course he'll be meta in solo queue. Practically was designed for it. Same for Riven/Fiora who get the same amount of flak as Lee. Junglers that tend to be strong in solo queue have an effective kit that can compare to Lee's early game pressure, not "they can fight Lee." I don't know why people keep confusing this as "they're forced to pick junglers that can handle Lee." There is more than just Lee for early game pressure and high elo people actually follow the rule of "if he's been good for the last few seasons and I climbed with him back then, I'll do it now instead of rotating to champions I don't have 2+ years of experience on."

WoonStruckFeb 26, 20172 votes

Mao's ult isn't invisible power. You see the VERY prominent aura particles, know you want to be in it, and it has a detonation.

Its no more 'invisible power' than Janna's ult.

Mira Arya EntheFeb 25, 20172 votes

Lee isn't a tank. This is a tank update. Of they don't hit Lee in the Diver update I would be mad.

AhristocatsFeb 25, 20178 votes

thing is they're fine with lee which is why it's stupid

Mira Arya EntheFeb 25, 20172 votes

Perhaps. I will wait for the diver update. If they don't do anything with him then, I will be among the first to blast Rito for it. But I think they will.

BastionKrossFeb 26, 20172 votes

-5 AD

And that will only be after Worlds is over with, since Riot has demonstrated quite clearly that Lee must be viable for Worlds with his mysterious buffs shortly before they began the last two seasons.

GigglesOFeb 25, 20171 votes

LeeSin

Sahn UzalFeb 25, 201714 votes

I think the main thing people are upset about is the whole ''generalist'' statement applying to Lee Sin just as well, but knowing Lee Sin won't get a Maokai-like treatment.

Mira Arya EntheFeb 25, 20173 votes

Now lets be fair. Lee might be hit in the diver update. This is the tank update, he isn't a tank and Maokai is so they are hitting Mao

Sahn UzalFeb 25, 201712 votes

Yeah, but do you really think Riot is going to touch Lee Sin in the Diver update?

Oakleaf RangerFeb 25, 20171 votes

Probably almost everyone gets some touch up when their class gets updated even if they aren't a part of the main champions being focused on.

Sexy Fish NamiFeb 25, 20171 votes

Who knows, the only way to find out is to wait until the diver uptade comes out.

TurquoiseYoshiFeb 25, 20171 votes

At this point they're probably gonna do it just to show up the people who keep bitching about it.

Vellich0rFeb 26, 20171 votes

probably not, because last time they tried to rework lee sin the community backlash was so massive they had to revert the changes before they even hit internal testing. A vocal minority really want lee to get changed, but he is still one of the most fun and rewarding champions in the game to play. He creates flashy plays and he can be picked almost every game by a good lee. For these reasons he will always be popular and VERY difficult for riot to nerf or put down even if they wanted to. Yes it makes him a balance pariah, but he isn't really that toxic of a champion. The only truly toxic thing on his kit is that if you are completely alone as a squishy all he has to do to gank you is ward hop next to you and press E to make his Q difficult to dodge. Beyond those specific cases you almost always feel like a good lee has outplayed you and earned a kill or a bad lee has hilariously fucked up, and with most of his kit revolving around hitting his Q you have an easy way to outplay him while he has great difficulty outplaying you.

Mira Arya EntheFeb 25, 201711 votes

Because circlejerking about Lee Sin is easy. Circle jerking about Jhin, now that takes some effort. Gotta explain things like orb walking and utility vs strength.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoFeb 25, 201712 votes

but circle jerking about a tree is a lil harder considering his skin is made of bark

*think about it *

Mira Arya EntheFeb 25, 20171 votes

I hate you, but I love you. -_-

oSEXYPLATYPUSoFeb 25, 20171 votes

lol why do you hate me ?

oSEXYPLATYPUSoFeb 25, 20171 votes

lol why do you hate me ?

chipndip1Feb 25, 20172 votes

Jhin isn't a Jhineralist. His core strength just overrides his core weakness so long as the game is being pushed towards blood shed and pvp over objective taking and farming.

h5LYF41LamFeb 25, 20177 votes

Community:riot why did you give this year's victorious skin to maokai? Riot:maokai is not that popular we wanted to boost that. community:ok then..... we will start playing him Riot a couple of months later:YOU JUST GOT PRANKED "reworks maokai"

Ulquiorra995Feb 25, 20176 votes

Mostly because it is yet another time when someone just has to be changed for a reason and Lee walks away scot-free although he is equal or even worse offender in the same category. I've lost count on how many times this happened.

So yep, people are actually more mad about Lee than Maokai. And can you blame them after years of jungle consisting of Lee and champions who can deal with Lee? And I wouldn't count on him getting anything major in diver update considering what happened the last time they tried to change him.

3TWarriorFeb 25, 20171 votes

lee sin update: ...

and then, league became mortal combat

WyrmbladeFeb 25, 20175 votes

Anti-Jerks are the most annoying kind of circlejerk.

The Vilemaw IconFeb 25, 20171 votes

Preach.

BlakiepugFeb 25, 20175 votes

No offense but I just hate class updates in general.

Sire HippingtonFeb 25, 20174 votes

You missunderstand those complaints. People don't cry because mao gets reworked(well, maybe the mains do, but any real main criess if his main gets reworked, or atleast voices his concerns), but because some certain 'generalists' simply don't get reworked even though they need it just as bad. Especially Lee uses his wardhop to escape any meaningfull changes since 5 seasons, and people are sick off that.