The problem with generalist champions in league.

macromite·Feb 25, 2017·17 votes·1,959 views

They exist, and don't suffer for their generalism, making them much much better than specialized picks, when both are balanced according to riot.

23 Comments

Darksun DragoonFeb 25, 20176 votes

The problem with generalist champions in any game is that they will either reliably perform anything you need them too, and thus always be the optimal pick, or they will be suboptimal no matter what you need them for, and thus a useless pick. Trying to find the middle ground that keeps them viable without being flat out better is nearly impossible.

AhristocatsFeb 25, 20174 votes

Last time i checked Rubick is perfectly balanced in Dota2

The problem with generalist champions is like OP said, they should be jack of all trades master of none, but they end up master of all because sometimes they don't have enough drawbacks in their kit

Thresh drawbacks for instance is his fucking long cooldown making him a good pick in every situations, but you don't expect him to do as good as other picks because of his cooldown+base stats both of that makes him balanced because he won't tank as much as braum, and he won't disrupt as much as leona

Darksun DragoonFeb 25, 20171 votes

And I completely agree, they shouldn't excel at anything in particular. Their strength should be their flexibility. The problem lies in execution. When a generalist is strong, they are always the go-to pick. When they aren't they're usually forgotten.

AhristocatsFeb 25, 20172 votes

Do you know that Rubick has near 80% pick rate in pro? And yet he isn't nerfed, and was never nerfed since his existence

A generalist being picked a lot isn't the problem, ** OF COURSE he's going to be picked a lot** because he is good in a lot of situations you can pick thresh or generalist without knowing what the enemies are picking that is the purpose of generalist champions

however the problem is when they become overbearing maokai is overbearing and he's being reworked for that Thresh isn't overbearing for the reasons i listed above Lee? what's the weaknesses of lee? in the other thread on lee people said "lol he falls off" when you give a good weakness to lee then he won't be overbearing anymore

SpecterVonBarenFeb 26, 20171 votes

How is Rubick a generalist hero?

JoxcabFeb 25, 20176 votes

Except them being weaker in any individual field. The reason generalists are common picks is because they're safe picks, which in turn makes them good picks. Every other specialist does what a generalist does in one particular area miles and leaps and bounds ahead.

MelledoneusFeb 26, 20173 votes

Then let's talk about the elephant in the room: Lee Sin.

-Has better burst, until late game, than assassin junglers -Has much more impactful CC than tank junglers -Has more mobility than diver and assassin junglers -Has more sustain than bruiser/skirmisher junglers -Has more team utility than utility junglers -Has better tank stats than most tank junglers

Dude with five abilities that give him everything. The only thing he does not have is an interaction with crit, and thank god for that.

Blood For ODINFeb 25, 20173 votes

"the nail that sticks out the farthest, gets hit the hardest". - some smart person. Riot have adopted the "lets all march in line and blend in with the heard because being an individual who risks for reward is some how politically incorrect and not safe space acceptable" - some random snowflake beta male

Arsenic SulfurFeb 26, 20171 votes

Okay...What does this have to do with the thread?

macromiteFeb 26, 20171 votes

I mean, I can kinda pick up what your puttin' down and all, but you should probs save that shit for a more apt time.

BorblandFeb 25, 20172 votes

Nidalee is a generalist. Is she OP ? No.

The issue is that generalist picks are popular, becuase they fill in games quite nicely and can adapt.

So they become popular and grow a player base. This player base will scream everytime a nerf is announced for their main, and then they pull the nerf back and they stay OP.

Lee Sin and Jhin can easily become balanced, just remove ward hopping from Lee Sin and a bit of damage off Jhin and they are fine.

foinhasFeb 25, 20171 votes

Riot wants lee-sin to stay mobile. Deal with it. Besides, there are lots of ways to balance him witout the "remove ward-hop" that people keep whinning about. Reduce W's range to 500 or Q projectile speed are just two of them...

chipndip1Feb 25, 20175 votes

Nidalee is a generalist.

http://pix.iemoji.com/images/emoji/apple/ios-9/256/thinking-face.png

DunkinNoobsFeb 26, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Nidalee is a generalist.

http://pix.iemoji.com/images/emoji/apple/ios-9/256/thinking-face.png

Right? Nidalee is literally the opposite of a generalist: she's a specialist that is so overbearing when strong that her weaknesses don't usually matter.

Fondling GemsFeb 25, 20172 votes

Well lets ignore the fact that Nidalee got nerfed into elo hell. Nidalee has burst, mobility, poke, sustain, and decent camp clear. However she is not a tank killer, has mana issues when out of the jungle, isn't amazing vs objectives, has OK waveclear, but has to get into melee range to do it. She also lacks consistent damage. Almost all of Nidalees damage can be dodged, in fact she only has one targeted damaging ability in her kit of 7 abilities. This means that while she can burst, she does not have reliable damage output, especially since she is dependent on landing spears for most of her damage.

As such she does (or rather did looking at her currently) a number of things well specifically in the sieging and clearing departments. However she struggled in the tank killing department as well as drawn out fight and consistent damage. Add on her meh objective control and she is clearly a jungle who is focused on sieging for short periods of time but depends on her team to provide the waveclear. Her AS boost further supports this.

So Nidalee is clearly not a generalist.

ElindiirFeb 25, 20171 votes

They however aren't considered absolutely terrifying. Specialized champions however have trouble with balancing because a little tweak can either unbearable to play as, or unbearable to play against. When Soraka is actually good, she is truly overbearing... When Mundo is actually good, he is literally unstoppable... When Kalista is actually good, she is a monster. Generalist champions are generally good, but nothing makes them overbearing... Irelia for example is a champion that you don't see much but is pretty good because she does a little bit of everything and can easily not lose lane. The thing about generalists is that they don't stand out... Nami and Sona don't stand out the way Soraka or Karma does. The only times a generalist is really noticed is when it is reworked/new (Shyvana/Camille) or the champion has been untouched for so long that the constant tuning of other champions leaves these generalists on the same level of everything as the specialists (Ahri/Maokai)

foinhasFeb 25, 20171 votes

what do you mean as "generalist"? Champions that can do everything, champios that can go whatever role thay want, champions that can build whatever they like... ?

Let me give an example of a "generalist" champion: Kayle. Kayle can go either ap or ad. She can also go top, jungle, mid, adc or support. According to you, she should be one of the most successfull (high winrate and playrate) champions, right?

5000000000000000Feb 25, 20171 votes

Generalist in this context means being able to do everything expected of your role. For example, as a tank top, you should have engage, peel, teamfight, tankiness, and/or utility (among other things). Maokai isn't the best at any of these, but is sufficiently good enough at most/all of these that he crowds out other picks.

I'm not saying this is true (but I'm low elo so what do I know lol), but that's the reasoning.

Kayle doesn't fit the definition in this context. People use "flex pick" to describe champions who can go anywhere, though, so maybe that's the word you're looking for.

foinhasFeb 25, 20171 votes

Thanks for the clarification.

Yes, maokai is the perfect deffinition of what you're trying to convey with this thread. Being able to perform admirably is all aspects as a tank (in maokai's case) is just wrong.

AlienPrimateFeb 25, 20171 votes

This is why we have draft pick. You can safely pick generalist champions for the first 2 or 3 picks and last 2 picks can go with a specialized champion to abuse the enemy's weaknesses or add to their team's strengths. This is why I love being last pick.

DerfelFeb 26, 20171 votes

league isn't complicated enough to have generalists and specialists. everyone is a generalist.

Jeddy017Feb 26, 20171 votes

Besides Lee Sin & Maokai, can someone list all the generalist champs for me? I do believe Thresh is also a generalist champ too.

DunkinNoobsFeb 26, 20171 votes

What generalists are dominating the game right now? The only ones I can think of that even come close are Lee and Maokai, and Lee is currently overshadowed by much stronger specialists in the jungle. Hell, the only generalist that's actually dominating Solo Q is Ahri (rated as 2nd best mid laner and 6th best champ overall), but beyond that, generalist are pretty weak right now overall. Beyond that, you have to scroll all the way down to Nami (9th best support and 34th champ overall) to find another real generalist.