Pyke Changes upcoming to 9.13

HawkNut·Jun 24, 2019·1 votes·6,323 views

Upcoming changes Listed below for 9.13 Bone Skewer (Q): Stap Targeting Paradigm:: AoE (30% reduced damage on non-champions) >>> Single target (Nearest unit, preferring nearest champion) [Removed]:: Stab 15% bonus damage Cooldown:: 14/12.5/11/9.5/8 >>> 12/11/10/9/8 Ghostwater Dive (W): Movement Speed:: 40% (Decaying to 0% over 5 seconds) >>> 40/45/50/55/60% (decaying to 0% over 5 seconds) Phantom undertow (E) [Removed] Damages non-champions

There was almost another nerf to his passive, making it to where the regeneration from your passive would be moved over to his Ghostwater Dive (W) and making it to where he could only proc this regeneration in his camouflaged state, but this change was canceled around a week as of this post.

I believe that these nerfs will effectively not just kill solo lane Pyke, but hurt a good amount of the versatility that riot was reaching for when they made an AD Assassin support. They are making it to where he will have a hard time helping the allied ADC shove lane with the fact that the E will no longer hit minions, and changing his Q to single target damage on top of lowering the bonus from the stab completely. In my opinion,the ability change to his E alone should have been enough to kill solo lane Pyke, but all of these changes on top of each other will hurt Pyke's damage immensely, and he might not be getting the same treatment as S7 Azir when they completely killed the champion's win rate for months without buffs, but it will still be a huge hit to his poke, his all ins, and his over all assassin aspect of his kit. With these changes it will be much harder to punish enemy ADC's and supports for over extending into minion wave, and will punish you more for trying to frontline for your ADC at any point in the game, trading off your Q damage for lower cooldowns on the ability instead. I am sure this AOE removal is a part of the riot team trying to kill solo lane pyke, but even if the Q had its AOE damage, you would not be able to out shove most laners, unless against a very passive early lane or getting a heavy early lead and getting a fast tiamat. Even with the removal of the AOE damage, I feel that the combination of the removed effects on his Q will effect his over all usefulness in all situations heavily, and punish him greatly for attempting to take small trades to poke down an enemy laner, even if they are a late scaling ADC that has nearly no damage in the early game he will lose most trades, and because of the E changes he will not be able to be nearly as aggressive already. Against a support like Nautilis, Leona, Alistar, or Thresh he already has a pretty rough laning phase due to their tankiness, but the reduced Q damage will make these lanes into monstrous lanes where you are doomed to either fail to protect your ADC, or to have to play an AFK lane for 10-15 minutes at least, when you will be able to roam and help other lanes while your ADC is most likely forced out of a decent bit of their CS due to your lack of trading potential. This is the thoughts that I have had on these changes, and hope that they will not nerf his Q as hard as they are planning to.

This change will make seem as threatening as , and make him hit like

46 Comments

HotarµJun 24, 20193 votes

##Not trying to be a jerk, but please space this out. It was a real pain to read.

Anyways, the nerfs really aren't going to hit his damage output that hard if at all. He's definitely not going to "hit like Soraka" and his ultimate is still one of the most devastating in the game. The only damage nerf he received was to his shotgun-Q and even then it's not that bad, he's just losing the % damage bonus. Yes, the waveclear hurts support Pyke when he wants to shove lanes but that's about it.

The compensation buffs to his W and Q are going to make him much more of a force to be reckoned with when the Pyke player knows what they're doing.

Honestly, we don't have anything to worry about.

Against a support like Nautilis, Leona, Alistar, or Thresh he already has a pretty rough laning phase due to their tankiness

Pyke usually wins those laning phases, it's the teamfighting phase that he tends to lose. Pyke's early game isn't good but he has the tools to outplay most of the champions you've listed.

QuitYerBichnJun 29, 20191 votes

The nerf to his Q isn't so much about the bonus dmg loss, but the AOE. I'd rather see a Q with reduced damage and on-hit effects, than how Rito neutered his wave clear and push . And chained overlapping ults is where Pyke truly shines. If you can reliably land those, and have a decent placement in teamfights, then you can easily be dealing 'tons of damage'.

KFCeytronJun 24, 20193 votes

"Hey, players, here's a paradigm we think you'll like; it's an assassin support, which means that you can HOLY SHIT WHAT ARE YOU GODDAMN GREMLINS DOING ASSASSINATING PEOPLE? EAT A BIG FAT NERF."

I oftentimes can't figure out Riot's intent with design/balance decisions, and I get the feeling that neither can they.

HotarµJun 24, 20193 votes

It doesn't have anything to do with Pyke assassinating people, he's playing in lanes and positions where he wasn't meant to.

Solo-Pyke (be it top or mid) wins lane by gradually tearing down his opponent. Most champions (save for a few like maybe Talon or Zed if they play it really well) don't have the burst to beat Pyke down, meaning he can back off and heal up without any risk. Because there is no enemy support to lock Pyke down / pressure him in fights, he essentially has free reign to do whatever he wants.

Basically, this is how solo-Pyke goes: Pyke goes in or you engage on him > he pops Aftershock and trades with you for a bit or he dashes out to disengage > Pyke heals off the damage you did to him and repeats the process until you're low enough to get ulted. If he can't do any of that, he just hits 6 and tries to roam as much as possible to snowball his team.

Aside from this issue and the tank-Pyke meta when he was first released, Pyke has stayed pretty well balanced overall.

KFCeytronJun 24, 20192 votes

{quoted}

It doesn't have anything to do with Pyke assassinating people, he's playing in lanes and positions where he wasn't meant to.

Solo-Pyke (be it top or mid) wins lane by gradually tearing down his opponent. Most champions (save for a few like maybe Talon or Zed if they play it really well) don't have the burst to beat Pyke down, meaning he can back off and heal up without any risk. Because there is no enemy support to lock Pyke down / pressure him in fights, he essentially has free reign to do whatever he wants.

Basically, this is how solo-Pyke goes: Pyke goes in or you engage on him > he pops Aftershock and trades with you for a bit or he dashes out to disengage > Pyke heals off the damage you did to him and repeats the process until you're low enough to get ulted. If he can't do any of that, he just hits 6 and tries to roam as much as possible to snowball his team.

Aside from this issue and the tank-Pyke meta when he was first released, Pyke has stayed pretty well balanced overall.

Poke with long-range spells and brief engagements until the enemy gets low, sustain through poke you receive, and go for the kill when the enemy is low... Isn't that just kind of how you play League of Legends in general? What's specific to Pyke that Riot feels the need to lock him into support and only support? Turning Q tap from AoE to single-target and making E not damage minions at all would be like fixing the Karthus/Taliyah jungle crashing bug by making their respective Q abilities no longer damage jungle monsters.

HotarµJun 24, 20193 votes

What's specific to Pyke that Riot feels the need to lock him into support and only support?

Well, for starters, he was designed as a support and only as a support.

He's got a supportive kit, he's listed as a support in the client and in his champion spotlight, and his ultimate is centered around supporting his team as a roaming support.

From top to bottom, Pyke is a support and letting him thrive in any other lane is too hard to balance in addition to not being the way he was clearly intended to be played.

Poke with long-range spells and brief engagements until the enemy gets low, sustain through poke you receive, and go for the kill when the enemy is low... Isn't that just kind of how you play League of Legends in general?

Yes, that is how League is played but the issue is that Pyke is too good at trading while having very little risk when compared to other laners.

So, not only does solo-Pyke go against the design philosophy of the champion as a whole, it's also very strong (last I checked Pyke top and mid had anywhere from a 52-56%+ WR across multiple ELOs.) and just based off of statistics alone it should be nerfed.

Turning Q tap from AoE to single-target and making E not damage minions at all would be like fixing the Karthus/Taliyah jungle crashing bug by making their respective Q abilities no longer damage jungle monsters.

Personally I feel that the tap-Q nerf is a bit overkill. It should still deal more damage than his hook, having them do equal amounts is counter-intuitive. Why would I tap-Q for a short range 100 damage when I could just hold Q for a second, deal 100 damage, have bonus range, pull someone towards or behind me which combos more reliably into my E, and can grab people over walls? I don't think this nerf will gut Pyke or anything but they might have overnerfed it a bit, although at the end of the day it doesn't matter because Riot has made it clear that they want Pyke to be a support and nothing else.

To be fair though, most of us are fine with that. We enjoy playing Pyke as a support (AKA the way he was intended to be played) and the majority of the community hates solo-lane Pyke for the above reasons.

KFCeytronJun 24, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Well, for starters, he was designed as a support and only as a support.

He's got a supportive kit, he's listed as a support in the client and in his champion spotlight, and his ultimate is centered around supporting his team as a roaming support.

From top to bottom, Pyke is a support and letting him thrive in any other lane is too hard to balance in addition to not being the way he was clearly intended to be played.

Yes, that is how League is played but the issue is that Pyke is too good at trading while having very little risk when compared to other laners.

So, not only does solo-Pyke go against the design philosophy of the champion as a whole, it's also very strong (last I checked Pyke top and mid had anywhere from a 52-56%+ WR across multiple ELOs.) and just based off of statistics alone it should be nerfed.

Personally I feel that the tap-Q nerf is a bit overkill. It should still deal more damage than his hook, having them do equal amounts is counter-intuitive. Why would I tap-Q for a short range 100 damage when I could just hold Q for a second, deal 100 damage, have bonus range, pull someone towards or behind me which combos more reliably into my E, and can grab people over walls? I don't think this nerf will gut Pyke or anything but they might have overnerfed it a bit, although at the end of the day it doesn't matter because Riot has made it clear that they want Pyke to be a support and nothing else.

To be fair though, most of us are fine with that. We enjoy playing Pyke as a support (AKA the way he was intended to be played) and the majority of the community hates solo-lane Pyke for the above reasons.

I don't think that designing a champ with a lane/role in mind and then enforcing that with an iron fist via not just a gutting but more of a disembowelment is healthy for the game at all. It stifles creativity and exploration, which should be of fundamental importance in a game.

Does Soraka top work? Sure. You have a useless W for a while, but you get good poke and sustain in Q and your E can help you avoid ganks. It's not the best thing Soraka can do, and she wasn't designed for it, but it's okay, and it's allowed. Brand/Zyra/etc. were designed to mid but are now also played as support, and that is apparently fine. Tahm was designed as a support, and then Riot realized they made a horrible mistake with an ability that can provide untargetability to any champion in the game and booted him into top lane where he is reportedly causing even more problems but not problems that make LCS boring so it's okay. Fid was designed as a mid, but then he found success as a jungler and a support, and, although he got a Q nerf due to its strength and low counterplay, it wasn't flat-out removed. Annie was designed as a mid, but is now also a support pick due to her stun.

When a champ that hasn't been pigeonholed into support goes bot lane and buys a gold gen item, it's totally cool and Whose Lane Is It Anyway. But when a support - especially an enchanter support - goes to another lane, they get a nerf to that to encourage them to stay in bot lane. And now we have a support who's being played in roles other than support being booted back to bot lane so hard that he's almost not allowed to damage minions. Note that this includes jungle Pyke, which doesn't involve trading or sustain with his passive. With a single-target Q and no damage on E, it'll be worse than... I dunno, Soraka jungle.

It's important to note that these nerfs aren't related to the things that make him too strong or oppressive, like "Pyke's sustain is too reliable in a solo lane, so we're reducing his grey health cap from a single source of damage." It's just "Pyke is going top and mid and we don't want that, so if you leave bot lane before 10:00 Scuttles will eat you."

And it bears repeating: no more jungle Pyke. He'd basically be a cannon minion. With Smite.

HotarµJun 24, 20191 votes

I don't think that designing a champ with a lane/role in mind and then enforcing that with an iron fist via not just a gutting but more of a disembowelment is healthy for the game at all. It stifles creativity and exploration, which should be of fundamental importance in a game.

Pyke is plenty unique in his own right, he doesn't need to be played in multiple lanes for the purposes of being "creative." Creativity just for the sake of being creative isn't always a good thing.

He's got a set build path due to not having AP scalings, he's restricted to AD/Lethality builds because of the duo scaling on his abilities, and he has the inability to build any HP or resistances as a result of his passive and Lethality scaling, respectively. Even if he was played in another lane, he's always going to have the same build path and playstyle. The only thing that changes the way he plays is his keystone, and even then in 99.99% of cases it's going to be Aftershock or Electrocute.

Also, again, Pyke is ridiculously strong when played in a solo lane (52-56%+ WR across all ELOs.) Restricting him to his intended area is the healthiest choice for the game overall, it's too difficult to balance him as a support and solo laner.

Does Soraka top work? Sure. You have a useless W for a while, but you get good poke and sustain in Q and your E can help you avoid ganks. It's not the best thing Soraka can do, and she wasn't designed for it, but it's okay, and it's allowed. Brand/Zyra/etc. were designed to mid but are now also played as support, and that is apparently fine. Tahm was designed as a support, and then Riot realized they made a horrible mistake with an ability that can provide untargetability to any champion in the game and booted him into top lane where he is reportedly causing even more problems but not problems that make LCS boring so it's okay. Fid was designed as a mid, but then he found success as a jungler and a support, and, although he got a Q nerf due to its strength and low counterplay, it wasn't flat-out removed. Annie was designed as a mid, but is now also a support pick due to her stun.

There's a colossal difference between something working and something being at a 56%+ winrate in an unintended role.

Let's just say for the purposes of this discussion that Soraka top was a meta pick, even on her strongest patches she would never reach the insane amount of map presence and snowballing potential that Pyke has when he's played in a solo lane. Everything comes back to Pyke (as an individual) being too hard to balance for both lanes. It's not healthy for the game and the community doesn't enjoy fighting him, it shouldn't be allowed.

Also, obligatory note: You can still play Pyke mid, top, or jungle, granted it is going to be much harder now but his ultimate still has insane potential and Tiamat still exists for waveclear. If played correctly I'm sure someone can still make him work.

It's important to note that these nerfs aren't related to the things that make him too strong or oppressive, like "Pyke's sustain is too reliable in a solo lane, so we're reducing his grey health cap from a single source of damage." It's just "Pyke is going top and mid and we don't want that, so if you leave bot lane before 10:00 Scuttles will eat you."

While all of the nerfs aren't targeted at his biggest strengths they do still hit him in the places where it effectively removes one role while keeping the other intact.

Pyke was able to stall lanes out by waveclearing just the right amount, even when E'ing away and taking trades after buying Tiamat. Now, Pyke will miss a lot of CS which sets him back further, reduces his ability to snowball since he can't afford lethality items or Mobis as early, and he gets punished harder for being shoved up to tower.

It's a great nerf as it succeeds in what it aims to do: kill solo Pyke.

And it bears repeating: no more jungle Pyke. He'd basically be a cannon minion. With Smite.

Same principles as solo-lane Pyke.

Too hard to balance, too much map pressure, not how he was intended to be played.

And for what it's worth, Jungle Pyke was never that good. Any competent jungler would capitalize on his horrible early game and engage on him when he used his E for clearing camps. He really wasn't that good of a jungler.

But again, experienced players can still probably make it work and it's not 100% dead.

KFCeytronJun 24, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Pyke is plenty unique in his own right, he doesn't need to be played in multiple lanes for the purposes of being "creative." Creativity just for the sake of being creative isn't always a good thing.

He's got a set build path due to not having AP scalings, he's restricted to AD/Lethality builds because of the duo scaling on his abilities, and he has the inability to build any HP or resistances as a result of his passive and Lethality scaling, respectively. Even if he was played in another lane, he's always going to have the same build path and playstyle. The only thing that changes the way he plays is his keystone, and even then in 99.99% of cases it's going to be Aftershock or Electrocute.

Also, again, Pyke is ridiculously strong when played in a solo lane (52-56%+ WR across all ELOs.) Restricting him to his intended area is the healthiest choice for the game overall, it's too difficult to balance him as a support and solo laner.

There's a colossal difference between something working and something being at a 56%+ winrate in an unintended role.

Let's just say for the purposes of this discussion that Soraka top was a meta pick, even on her strongest patches she would never reach the insane amount of map presence and snowballing potential that Pyke has when he's played in a solo lane. Everything comes back to Pyke (as an individual) being too hard to balance for both lanes. It's not healthy for the game and the community doesn't enjoy fighting him, it shouldn't be allowed.

Also, obligatory note: You can still play Pyke mid, top, or jungle, granted it is going to be much harder now but his ultimate still has insane potential and Tiamat still exists for waveclear. If played correctly I'm sure someone can still make him work.

While all of the nerfs aren't targeted at his biggest strengths they do still hit him in the places where it effectively removes one role while keeping the other intact.

Pyke was able to stall lanes out by waveclearing just the right amount, even when E'ing away and taking trades after buying Tiamat. Now, Pyke will miss a lot of CS which sets him back further, reduces his ability to snowball since he can't afford lethality items or Mobis as early, and he gets punished harder for being shoved up to tower.

It's a great nerf as it succeeds in what it aims to do: kill solo Pyke.

Same principles as solo-lane Pyke.

Too hard to balance, too much map pressure, not how he was intended to be played.

And for what it's worth, Jungle Pyke was never that good. Any competent jungler would capitalize on his horrible early game and engage on him when he used his E for clearing camps. He really wasn't that good of a jungler.

But again, experienced players can still probably make it work and it's not 100% dead.

If he was way too strong in solo lanes, why not a nerf specifically for that? We've seen it before, many times on many other champions. It seems like the easy way out.

Pyke doesn't start with Tiamat, and I don't see how he could realistically get the 1325 gold it costs to buy one with just autoattacks and a Q that's lost most of its power (no AoE and no 15% bonus). In lane he could maybe sit back and wait for minions and turrets to do most of the work, but in the jungle he'll have basically nothing.

I think the nerfs should be targeted at the reason he's a problem in solo lanes, not at the result of the reason. The notion that this is "too hard" to do in this instance doesn't really provide information. Why was it hard? Were other nerfs considered or tried on PBE? Pardon the jump, but when someone makes a thread on PB saying that permabans should be replaced with ongoing chat restrictions, we don't just tell them "no," we tell them that it was tried and resulted in increased nonverbal toxicity. Similarly, when someone wants to do jungle Pyke, they shouldn't just be told "no"; I'd like to hear what was tried, why it didn't work, etc. Testing a theory with an experiment and analyzing the results is a lot easier for me to understand.

If jungle Pyke was never that good and now he'll be relegated to basically being permanently silenced in the jungle, I don't see how experienced players would make it work, and - also importantly - why they would even try it.

I guess we'll have to wait and see whether the nerfs bring non-support Pyke from an OP 56% WR to a balanced 50% WR or to a troll-pick <45% WR (I wouldn't be surprised at 40% or even worse, especially for jungle Pyke).

HotarµJun 24, 20192 votes

If he was way too strong in solo lanes, why not a nerf specifically for that? We've seen it before, many times on many other champions. It seems like the easy way out.

That's what they did...?

The E damage removal hits his waveclear heavily, the Q nerf hits his damage even harder.

Support Pyke is almost entirely unaffected by these changes, but they did give him a Q and W compensation buff to make up for any unintended side effects.

Pyke doesn't start with Tiamat, and I don't see how he could realistically get the 1325 gold it costs to buy one with just autoattacks and a Q that's lost most of its power (no AoE and no 15% bonus). In lane he could maybe sit back and wait for minions and turrets to do most of the work, but in the jungle he'll have basically nothing.

That's the point, they want to kill solo-Pyke.

It's still possible to farm up 1,325 gold through careful play but it's going to be a lot harder to cruise through the game as solo-Pyke now.

I think the nerfs should be targeted at the reason he's a problem in solo lanes, not at the result of the reason.

I already explained this.

The reason solo-Pyke is so strong is because he's got little risk, a reliable disengage, and all the reward. Support Pyke has to deal with an enemy ADC and support in addition to the jungler, solo-Pyke has to deal with an enemy top or mid (+jungler if they even come up) who won't be able to burst him sufficiently enough to land a kill.

His passive is central to his kit so they have to attack other areas to keep him in line.

Nerfing his passive = weaker solo and support Pyke. Nerfing his ultimate threshold = weaker solo and support Pyke. Nerfing his waveclear = weakened solo Pyke with minimal damage done to support Pyke.

It's the best option out of the ones they had available to them. The only other real option (aside from a mini-rework which most of us don't want) was to tie his passive to a support item, meaning Pyke would have to buy a Targon's or Coin in order to access his passive or ultimate execute.

If jungle Pyke was never that good and now he'll be relegated to basically being permanently silenced in the jungle, I don't see how experienced players would make it work, and - also importantly - why they would even try it.

Yes, exactly.

Again, that is the point. Riot does not want Pyke top/mid/jungle to be a thing, they want him to be a support and strictly a support. In their eyes he's too hard to balance for both lanes (which is something I and the majority of the community agree with) so it's not worth the effort it would take to try and make it happen if it's even possible.

If you're good enough with a champion you can make anything work, though. It's going to be a lot harder to make solo-Pyke work but it can probably still be done given enough practice and skill.

I guess we'll have to wait and see whether the nerfs bring non-support Pyke from an OP 56% WR to a balanced 50% WR or to a troll-pick <45% WR (I wouldn't be surprised at 40% or even worse, especially for jungle Pyke).

Even if it was considered a "troll pick" that's ultimately Riot's goal, because again, they want him to be a support and nothing else.

KFCeytronJun 24, 20191 votes

{quoted}

That's what they did...?

The E damage removal hits his waveclear heavily, the Q nerf hits his damage even harder.

Support Pyke is almost entirely unaffected by these changes, but they did give him a Q and W compensation buff to make up for any unintended side effects.

That's the point, they want to kill solo-Pyke.

It's still possible to farm up 1,325 gold through careful play but it's going to be a lot harder to cruise through the game as solo-Pyke now.

I already explained this.

The reason solo-Pyke is so strong is because he's got little risk, a reliable disengage, and all the reward. Support Pyke has to deal with an enemy ADC and support in addition to the jungler, solo-Pyke has to deal with an enemy top or mid (+jungler if they even come up) who won't be able to burst him sufficiently enough to land a kill.

His passive is central to his kit so they have to attack other areas to keep him in line.

Nerfing his passive = weaker solo and support Pyke. Nerfing his ultimate threshold = weaker solo and support Pyke. Nerfing his waveclear = weakened solo Pyke with minimal damage done to support Pyke.

It's the best option out of the ones they had available to them. The only other real option (aside from a mini-rework which most of us don't want) was to tie his passive to a support item, meaning Pyke would have to buy a Targon's or Coin in order to access his passive or ultimate execute.

Yes, exactly.

Again, that is the point. Riot does not want Pyke top/mid/jungle to be a thing, they want him to be a support and strictly a support. In their eyes he's too hard to balance for both lanes (which is something I and the majority of the community agree with) so it's not worth the effort it would take to try and make it happen if it's even possible.

If you're good enough with a champion you can make anything work, though. It's going to be a lot harder to make solo-Pyke work but it can probably still be done given enough practice and skill.

Even if it was considered a "troll pick" that's ultimately Riot's goal, because again, they want him to be a support and nothing else.

Okay. I just wanted to make sure that there really is no other treatment for a sprained ankle before we go ahead and amputate the foot.

HotarµJun 24, 20191 votes

Ok, just go ahead and ignore everything I said and supported with statistical and anecdotal evidence.

I said it before and I'll say it again, creativity just for the sake of being creative isn't always a good thing.

KFCeytronJun 24, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Ok, just go ahead and ignore everything I said and supported with statistical and anecdotal evidence.

I said it before and I'll say it again, creativity just for the sake of being creative isn't always a good thing.

???

Just because I didn't give a point-by-point response to feed into a pattern of longer and longer posts doesn't mean I ignored what you said. If it makes you feel better, I can tell you that I particularly liked this part:

{quoted}

Nerfing his passive = weaker solo and support Pyke. Nerfing his ultimate threshold = weaker solo and support Pyke. Nerfing his waveclear = weakened solo Pyke with minimal damage done to support Pyke.

It's the best option out of the ones they had available to them. The only other real option (aside from a mini-rework which most of us don't want) was to tie his passive to a support item, meaning Pyke would have to buy a Targon's or Coin in order to access his passive or ultimate execute.

This covered alternative possibilities for nerfs and explained why they would be unsuitable, which is what I'd been most interested in seeing. When I said "okay" I meant it as confirmation and agreement, not dismissal. :) Looking back, my analogy above wasn't clear enough: something along the lines of "I wanted to make sure this is gangrene and not a sprain before we amputate" would've been better, emphasizing that I now understand that solo Pyke is more of an incurable infection than a boo-boo.

HotarµJun 24, 20191 votes

If you meant it as a confirmation and not a dismissal, that's my fault for misunderstanding and I apologize for jumping so quickly to sarcasm.

I genuinely thought you ignored everything I said and meant that comment like "Well I guess if Riot doesn't want to do something cool why even bother" and not as a confirmation.

IllabetheJun 24, 20191 votes

Sorry, but Pyke averages almost 6 deaths a game. That's pretty average among the entire mix of champions. He dies more often than any other Assassin, even given his kit. Cooldowns are a real pain.

And statistics? Pyke is only 50% as a support. None of what they are doing to him is going to improve that. Everything they are doing to him is going to make him perform WORSE at support too. They're basically eliminating his mid play, but ALSO eliminating his support win rate at only 50%.

And the fact you argue about Q tells me you DON'T PLAY PYKE. The Q stab additional damage is aoe, and doesn't require you to go visible to initiate a fight...... It also offers a better sequence of skills than a pulling Q hook. W > Q > Auto > Auto > E is FAR safer than trying to Q > E to close the gap, and then W or R.

P.S. Both Zed and Talon have higher mid win rates than Pyke....

HotarµJun 24, 20191 votes

I'm not getting into another discussion with you about Pyke because you refuse to look at statistics and acknowledge his core problems.

And the fact you argue about Q tells me you DON'T PLAY PYKE.

I have almost 4 times your mastery points on Pyke.

You.

(126,833)

Me.

(392,986.)

This is (probably) the part where you're going to bring up my rank (or lack thereof) but the point remains that I know what I'm talking about and have more experience than you. Of course, if you have a smurf you might have even more than I do, but there's no way for me to know that.

I still have a very high amount of experience meaning you're dead wrong about your assumptions.

P.S. Both Zed and Talon have higher mid win rates than Pyke....

And? They should, they're primary assassins going to their own lane.

Pyke was not meant to be played in those lanes so it makes sense that he has less consistent results, but that doesn't mean he isn't problematic.

This is the part where you disagree with that or call me inexperienced or something because you don't like to acknowledge statistics or other facts, meaning discussion about balance is impossible with you.

IllabetheJun 24, 20191 votes

You can beat the wall as many times as you want with the argument that Pyke (and ONLY Pyke) should be Support Exclusive. You need to realize the hole you are going down is a very tiny, narrow one.

You say I don't appreciate stats, yet I literally looked up Pyke's average death rate to rebuke you on him "being able to have too much survivability."

I say YOU don't appreciate stats, because you argue in biased text. When you bring up his Solo Lane, you fail to mention that he's only 52% in MID. Top/Jung/Support are all 50% You also fail to even consider support's impact from losing 2 aoes in terms of minion clear.

Maybe YOU don't CS or try to freeze a lane. Most people who attempt higher elos DO. It's not about his aoe having insane clear. It's about being able to do the job within the itemization forced upon him. If a Support Pyke buys a Tiamat, he's not buying lethality. That drastically changes the pace of the game/gold incomes and XP.

There's nothing you can possibly argue that will make Pyke Support somehow retain 50% with these nerfs. Solo Lanes will drop 8-9%. Support will drop 6-7%.

I love facts and statistics. But I love WHOLE stats/statistics.

HotarµJun 24, 20191 votes

You can beat the wall as many times as you want with the argument that Pyke (and ONLY Pyke) should be Support Exclusive. You need to realize the hole you are going down is a very tiny, narrow one.

You say you like stats and evidence but whenever anyone brings them up, you disregard them entirely and refuse to acknowledge anything that disproves your agenda. Pyke is not weak, Pyke has historically been and is currently balanced as supported by his 50% winrate.

Why don't you take a crack at this response that you ignored instead of opening up the same pointless discussion again?

IllabetheJun 24, 20191 votes

I don't and never disregard counterarguments which are whole.

The nerf hasn't been implemented yet, so "isn't weak" with 50% is a moot point at this time.

Also, strong champs carry more than 50%, not 50%, especially with how simple the kit is.

MiracleMorg94Jun 24, 20192 votes

Pyke as a whole goes against the design philosophy of Riot. "Support" my ass. He's just an assassin in the bot lane that doesn't belong there. His kit is not a real support's kit, especially that stupid ultimate.

HotarµJun 24, 20194 votes

Pyke as a whole goes against the design philosophy of Riot. "Support" my ass. He's just an assassin in the bot lane that doesn't belong there. His kit is not a real support's kit, especially that stupid ultimate.

His Q is a hook or slow, his W helps him engage and get vision, his E is a stun, and his ultimate finishes off a kill while giving a bonus to his allies.

Just because you take issue with him doesn't mean he isn't a support.

MiracleMorg94Jun 24, 20191 votes

{quoted}

His Q is a hook or slow, his W helps him engage and get vision, his E is a stun, and his ultimate finishes off a kill while giving a bonus to his allies.

Just because you take issue with him doesn't mean he isn't a support.

Again, assassins don't get hard CC, so he shouldn't have all that crap, and again, supports don't have huge damage capabilities, so again, that ultimate is downright stupid. And just because it gives them gold doesn't mean it's a support ability. All it does is help him snowball while putting the ADC behind and ruining their end game score.

He's not a support, no matter what people say.

Supports- assists. ADCs- KILLS.

That's how it's meant to be.

HotarµJun 24, 20191 votes

Again, assassins don't get hard CC, so he shouldn't have all that crap, and again, supports don't have huge damage capabilities, so again, that ultimate is downright stupid.

And just because it gives them gold doesn't mean it's a support ability. All it does is help him snowball while putting the ADC behind and ruining their end game score.

What?

Okay, first off yes it is a supportive ultimate. I know the phrase is memed a ton but death is the best CC. Finishing off a kill early and duplicating the kill gold snowballs his entire team in addition to removing problematic champions from fights before they have a chance to back or clutch the teamfight.

Also, it doesn't "ruin" anything. It's a K/D/A that doesn't have any bearing on the game whatsoever.

Secondly, his damage capabilities aren't even that high. Pyke is one of the lowest damage output champions in the game, he very rarely if ever goes above the 6th highest damage in the match. Every website shows this in great detail, so check out OP.GG, League of Graphs, Champion.GG, Lolayltics, anywhere. The information is right there for you to see.

He's not a support, no matter what people say.

Well Riot classifies him as a support, the client classifies him as a support, the majority of the playerbase classifies him as a support, even websites like OP.GG classify him as a support.

But yeah, I guess your one opinion is just a fact and everyone else is wrong, right?

Supports- assists. ADCs- KILLS.

That's how it's meant to be.

Okay one, that's a pretty horrible way to view the game. Classes aren't and shouldn't be resigned to one playstyle and one playstyle alone, different champions are going to be released that slightly shift the conventional rules. It's healthy for the game and something that makes League unique.

Also again, Pyke has been well balanced since release and he has clear windows of counterplay. It's not like he was released, flipped the game upside down and is the best champion in the game now.

He was released, offered a unique take on the support role, and is a strong, healthy pick when compared to his counterparts.

MiracleMorg94Jun 24, 20191 votes

{quoted}

What?

Okay, first off yes it is a supportive ultimate. I know the phrase is memed a ton but death is the best CC. Finishing off a kill early and duplicating the kill gold snowballs his entire team in addition to removing problematic champions from fights before they have a chance to back or clutch the teamfight.

No, it's really not. It has little to no counterplay on top of being able to kill at 50%. Supports aren't meant to do that damage.

Also, it doesn't "ruin" anything. It's a K/D/A that doesn't have any bearing on the game whatsoever.

End game rating means a lot, so yes, he ruins people's scores and puts people behind.

Secondly, his damage capabilities aren't even that high. Pyke is one of the lowest damage output champions in the game, he very rarely if ever goes above the 6th highest damage in the match. Every website shows this in great detail, so check out OP.GG, League of Graphs, Champion.GG, Lolayltics, anywhere. The information is right there for you to see.

Again, talking about his god awful ultimate like I said above.

Well Riot classifies him as a support, the client classifies him as a support, the majority of the playerbase classifies him as a support, even websites like OP.GG classify him as a support.

Again, he's just an assassin that was stupidly put in the bot lane. He's not a support even if they say he is.

But yeah, I guess your one opinion is just a fact and everyone else is wrong, right?

Okay one, that's a pretty horrible way to view the game. Classes aren't and shouldn't be resigned to one playstyle and one playstyle alone, different champions are going to be released that slightly shift the conventional rules. It's healthy for the game and something that makes League unique.

It is literally how the game was made, and how I was taught to play. Sure, there are champs that can play multiple roles, that's fine but what Pyke is is not healthy for the game and makes the game worse.

Also again, Pyke has been well balanced since release and he has clear windows of counterplay. It's not like he was released, flipped the game upside down and is the best champion in the game now.

Lmao. He was borderline OP before they took out his tank build.

He was released, offered a unique take on the support role, and is a strong, healthy pick when compared to his counterparts.

He doesn't offer any unique take on the support role, and is a very unhealthy pick. He needs deleted from the game.

HotarµJun 24, 20194 votes

No, it's really not. It has little to no counterplay on top of being able to kill at 50%. Supports aren't meant to do that damage.

I suggest you watch Pyke counterplay guides or read up on how he works, because you have a lot to learn.

Again, one of the lowest damage outputs in the game. Ranked in the lowest in terms of the support pool itself.

End game rating means a lot, so yes, he ruins people's scores and puts people behind.

For the purposes of ranked, a win is generally a win. You don't need to solo carry with an obscenely high score to rise in rank, winning the game is enough.

For everything else, no, it doesn't matter and that's a fact. If Pyke finishes the game 11/0/4 and his ADC finishes 7/3/13, his ADC is still going to have a monumental amount of bonus gold and will be very far ahead.

KDA means absolutely nothing.

Again, talking about his god awful ultimate like I said above.

In the comment I'm currently replying to, you specifically said "Supports aren't meant to do that damage." In the previous comment you said "supports don't have huge damage capabilities." And in the comment before that, you said "Supports aren't meant to kill or do large amounts of damage."

Make up your mind.

Again, he's just an assassin that was stupidly put in the bot lane. He's not a support even if they say he is.

So you're basically admitting to being ignorant and disregarding all of the factual evidence that's been presented to you, nice.

It is literally how the game was made, and how I was taught to play. Sure, there are champs that can play multiple roles, that's fine but what Pyke is is not healthy for the game and makes the game worse.

No, the fact is that because you don't like playing against (or with) Pyke, that makes him an objectively broken or unbalanced champion.

##Here's the facts.

For the majority of his existence, Pyke has been at, below, or only slightly above a 50% winrate. Statistically speaking, Pyke is very balanced.
His problematic builds or playstyles (solo Pyke and tank Pyke) are being removed and have been removed respectively. Tank Pyke hasn't made a return since.
Just because you don't like something or can't play against it doesn't make it broken.
Pyke's kit has incredible windows of counterplay. If you need to learn how to play against him, I suggest checking out some guides or playing him yourself. His Q is telegraphed and has a long windup just to reach the same parameters as a Thresh hook, is W has a massive indicator, his E and ultimate are telegraphed and any dash/blink/stasis/heal/MS boost can counter them. Some of his hardest counters (enchanters like Sona, Nami, and Soraka) are very meta at the moment as well. In short, actively learn how go play against a champion instead of blindly and incorrectly saying they have no counterplay.

Lmao. He was borderline OP before they took out his tank build.

I agree.

That's why it was removed over FIFTEEN patches ago and hasn't been allowed to return since. Pyke returned to a balanced state and has stayed there since 8.22, something which I'm sure you'll disagree with even though statistical, anecdotal, and factual evidence proves you wrong.

He doesn't offer any unique take on the support role,

Factually wrong.

Supports were primarily tanks or enchanters before Pyke came along. The only exceptions were mages like Brand and Zyra who weren't designed to support in the first place.

Say Pyke is bad, say he's OP, but he's definitely unique.

and is a very unhealthy pick.

A consistent 50% winrate across all ELOs is unbalanced? Damn, I guess Ziggs, Soraka, Swain, and Vayne are all unbalanced too.

He needs deleted from the game.

Yes, let's just delete every champion instead of learning how to counter them and play around their openings.

All champions should be 100% identical and skill shouldn't matter at all, that will make the game better.

MiracleMorg94Jun 24, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I suggest you watch Pyke counterplay guides or read up on how he works, because you have a lot to learn.

Nope, I don't. I've played against that stupid shit enough to learn all I need too.

Again, one of the lowest damage outputs in the game. Ranked in the lowest in terms of the support pool itself.

Go back and read again. I am talking about his FUCKING ULTIMATE, which deals too much.

For the purposes of ranked, a win is generally a win. You don't need to solo carry with an obscenely high score to rise in rank, winning the game is enough.

For everything else, no, it doesn't matter and that's a fact. If Pyke finishes the game 11/0/4 and his ADC finishes 7/3/13, his ADC is still going to have a monumental amount of bonus gold and will be very far ahead.

Facepalm Go back and read again man. END GAME SCORE- as in C, B, A, S, S+, etc. Not only does a horrible score affect that rating, but also the XP and mastery points you get at the end as well. A Pyke snowballing into 11/0/4 will have a huge spike in his rating compared to an ADC who goes 0/0/11 because they aren't meant to have that score, same for Pyke. Not to mention what if a certain Pyke does well, but then he's all focused on his own play instead of protecting his ADC, which is what a REAL SUPPORT does, and that ADC goes 0/11/4? Hm? Again ruining their game because that Pyke is kill greedy.

So, yes, it does matter A FUCK TON!

KDA means absolutely nothing.

Read above.

In the comment I'm currently replying to, you specifically said "Supports aren't meant to do that damage." In the previous comment you said "supports don't have huge damage capabilities." And in the comment before that, you said "Supports aren't meant to kill or do large amounts of damage."

Make up your mind.

Those all mean the same thing. Good Lord.

So you're basically admitting to being ignorant and disregarding all of the factual evidence that's been presented to you, nice.

Nice try, but nope. And what you provided isn't evidence.

No, the fact is that because you don't like playing against (or with) Pyke, that makes him an objectively broken or unbalanced champion.

Sure, I hate the fucking shit out of him. I never said he was broken, besides when he was first released and people abused his tank build. And yes, he's fucking unbalanced with that kit.

##Here's the facts.

For the majority of his existence, Pyke has been at, below, or only slightly above a 50% winrate. Statistically speaking, Pyke is very balanced.

Winrate doesn't always correlate that a champ is strong, weak, balanced or not.

His problematic builds or playstyles (solo Pyke and tank Pyke) are being removed and have been removed respectively. Tank Pyke hasn't made a return since.

Just because you don't like something or can't play against it doesn't make it broken.

Again, read above.

Pyke's kit has incredible windows of counterplay. If you need to learn how to play against him, I suggest checking out some guides or playing him yourself. His Q is telegraphed and has a long windup just to reach the same parameters as a Thresh hook, is W has a massive indicator, his E and ultimate are telegraphed and any dash/blink/stasis/heal/MS boost can counter them. Some of his hardest counters (enchanters like Sona, Nami, and Soraka) are very meta at the moment as well. In short, actively learn how go play against a champion instead of blindly and incorrectly saying they have no counterplay.

SMH. His Q hitbox is broken, his regen and invisibility let him take damage without risk so you just end up with no mana and he's fine as hell, and once he hits 6, all those enchanter supports are fucking dead because they have low health values, longer CDs and he has a fucking execute as a "support" ultimate.

I agree.

That's why it was removed over FIFTEEN patches ago and hasn't been allowed to return since. Pyke returned to a balanced state and has stayed there since 8.22, something which I'm sure you'll disagree with even though statistical, anecdotal, and factual evidence proves you wrong.

Facepalm. And nope.

Factually wrong.

Supports were primarily tanks or enchanters before Pyke came along. The only exceptions were mages like Brand and Zyra who weren't designed to support in the first place.

And that's what supports are meant to be, and again, factually correct, he does not offer any unique take on the support role because HE IS NOT A FUCKING SUPPORT.

Say Pyke is bad, say he's OP, but he's definitely unique.

Lmao. No he's not. Riot just can't think of anything else to make and thought it would be borderline trolling and hilarious to slap this stupid piece of shit into the game.

A consistent 50% winrate across all ELOs is unbalanced? Damn, I guess Ziggs, Soraka, Swain, and Vayne are all unbalanced too.

Yes, let's just delete every champion instead of learning how to counter them and play around their openings.

He doesn't have counters in the lane phase. Be respectful.

All champions should be 100% identical and skill shouldn't matter at all, that will make the game better.

Not identical, but still in the same identity. Assassins are meant for solo laning, and not in the fucking bot lane. Supports are meant for the bot lane, end of story.

D357R0Y3RJun 28, 20191 votes

thank you for using a lot of your time to try to teach the boards league

redacezJun 28, 20191 votes

Well he's listed as a mid aswell and I just played a game not knowing there were changes to him in the recent patch I was midlane and can confirm the champs dead as a solo lane with these changes.

HotarµJun 28, 20191 votes

Well he's listed as a mid aswell and I just played a game not knowing there were changes to him in the recent patch I was midlane and can confirm the champs dead as a solo lane with these changes.

Being listed as an Assassin doesn't make him a midlaner. Pyke's whole niche was to be League's first Support/Assassin.

If you're talking about the "mid" section in champion select, that's based off of popularity, not what Riot wants to be played in mid.

Also, yeah, they don't want him to be a solo laner so the nerfs are working as intended.

IllabetheJun 24, 20191 votes

Except..... early on..... the healing cap on his heal per level acted as a way to mitigate said "heal up." Healing 42% of damage taken isn't exactly much stronger than Garen's regeneration, and Garen can build a hell of a lot more HP, do 4 times as much damage.....

Also, although players refuse to DO IT, there's significant reduction to Pyke's ability to do this JUST FROM PLACING A LANE BASED CONTROL WARD. Pyke can't destroy the ward without taking enough punishment to die!

Also, wasn't meant to? I literally Zyra/Morgana jungle! They also excel in top!. Wasn't meant to? Better rework Morgana and Zyra ...... and Brand..... and Karthus..... so they can't jungle or lane outside their 1 lane.

Oh.... and better drop them to a 39% Win rate and take away ANY lane pressure they had to compensate for their team while they are at it (Even NAMI can wave clear better than this upcoming Pyke change...... even Sona..... and Yes; Soraka. There is not a single support who is going to have worse wave clear than Pyke)

Oh. And then there's the fact...... Pyke is already the lowest AD overall damage champ in the game for champs building AD. So yup. We're going to lower it even more. Braum is going to do more AD damage than Pyke at this rate.

ChaosReynJun 24, 20191 votes

Teamfight Tactics > Pyke > Pirate / Assassin

Summoner's Rift > Pyke > out-trades BURST MAGES with a passive that's literally a TANK'S E ability, for free, that heals more % than it does on the tank.

I'd have to say, that issue isn't very hard to spot. >.>

HotarµJun 24, 20191 votes

Summoner's Rift > Pyke > out-trades BURST MAGES with a passive that's literally a TANK'S E ability, for free, that heals more % than it does on the tank.

I'd have to say, that issue isn't very hard to spot. >.>

Except historically speaking Pyke has been decently balanced. He's had two medium-scale issues since release.

A full tank build that went against the design of the champion as a whole and this solo-Pyke dilemma, both of which have been solved by giving him forced lethality builds and nerfing his waveclear, respectively.

I suggest you read my discussion with KFCeytron because we went into detail about what Pyke's problems were at the moment and I offered an explanation for these nerfs. Here's that part in particular:

Basically, this is how solo-Pyke goes: Pyke goes in or you engage on him, he pops Aftershock and trades with you for a bit OR he dashes out to disengage, Pyke heals off the damage you did to him and repeats the process until you're low enough to get ulted.

If he can't do any of that, he just hits 6 and tries to roam as much as possible to snowball his team.

No, Pyke isn't out-bursting mages and assassins left and right, it's the opposite actually. Solo Pyke slowly wears down his opponent until they're in ult range or just roams to other lanes to snowball his team.

Also, statistically speaking Pyke has one of the lowest damage outputs in the game. He'll very rarely (if ever) go above 4th or 5th on his team.

ChaosReynJun 24, 20191 votes

And I'm saying "why not just let him?"

He's already known as an "assassin" in TFT, his ult is an assassin-style execute, and his passive makes no aesthetic sense at all. Nerf the healing so you can actually poke him out of lane, and give him some damage output.

I hate saying to raise damage in this meta, but it's what makes the most sense for the guy. His entire kit has minimal risk for high reward, and that's what I mean when I say I can see a problem. Make the risk more of a risk, and the reward will actually feel rewarding instead of inevitable. At some point the guy's gonna press R and get a kill. I see no reason why he shouldn't work to either obtain that kill, or find his way out afterwards.

imortaloneJun 25, 20191 votes

guess what you can play blitz or naut to beat pyke easy, without pyke getting Nerfed...

MiracleMorg94Jun 24, 20192 votes

Good. He needs dumpstering since Riot won't delete him from the game, which is what the game really needs. Horribly designed champion that belongs nowhere near the bot lane, yet alone a solo lane. Disgusting champion.

Supports aren't meant to kill or do huge amounts of damage, yet alone have a stupid 50% health execute with a stun, health regen and invisibility. Absolutely disgusting.

IllabetheJun 24, 20192 votes

Says a person named "Morg" in a lane with Zyra Velkoz Sona Lux Morgana Karma Fiddlesticks

MiracleMorg94Jun 24, 20191 votes

What exactly is your argument here? I like playing Morg, so what? She's a well designed champion, unlike Pyke.

7 out of those 8 are not supports. Morg, Zyra, Karma were mid lane mages pushed bot by Riot.

Lux, Vel, Brand are mid lane mages taken bot just for a kill lane.

Fiddle is a jungler taken bot just for a kill lane.

Only real support in that list is Sona.

IllabetheJun 24, 20191 votes

Most of the community would argue with you on Morg being a well designed champion. She has a higher ban rate and win rate than Pyke, and her kit is generally simple (I have over 5.6 million Morg Mastery). Just for hitting Q, she gets rewarded more than almost any other champ for any other skill. (Blitz Q is up there too).

Karma has always been more support than mid.

Lux has some of the strongest CC and shield in the game even disregarding her damage.

MiracleMorg94Jun 24, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Most of the community would argue with you on Morg being a well designed champion. She has a higher ban rate and win rate than Pyke, and her kit is generally simple (I have over 5.6 million Morg Mastery). Just for hitting Q, she gets rewarded more than almost any other champ for any other skill. (Blitz Q is up there too).

No, they wouldn't. Well designed does not equal balanced. Of course she has a higher ban rate, because she is a counter to Pyke, Blitz, Thresh, Naut, etc. Her win rate is higher because she's a mage, and mages always have better winrates statistically than AD and assassins.

Not to mention, even Riot agrees she's well designed- read their comments on during the mini VU she got- they said her kit was so good they didn't want to add any changes unless it made her better.

Karma has always been more support than mid.

I disagree with that along with many other Karma mains that will tell you otherwise as well. She was mid before Riot pushed changes onto her shield and made her a shield bot.

Lux has some of the strongest CC and shield in the game even disregarding her damage.

Well of course she does, because she has MID LANE numbers in her kit, but her CC is lacking compared to actual supports. Compared to Nami- knockup/stun on Q, slow on E, knockup and slow on R.

Lux? Only a double root on Q and a mild slow on E.

Morg? Q bind, R slow plus stun.

See the difference?

IllabetheJun 25, 20191 votes

I didn't downvote you. someone else did.
Trying to argue some sentiment as an excuse as to "what people think" is a fallacious argument on its face. You need to word your arguments in ways where you're not telling readers "what you think they think and why they think that."
She doesn't counter Pyke (well not the current Pyke). That's a major misnomer. She makes lane phase more difficult, but Pyke still wins the game, because nothing she has stops his Ult or a short distance Q. He can also escape her R and Q easily. The only thing she "counters" is his pull (the damage still passes through) and the stun.
Mages do NOT have higher statistical win rates than AD and assassins lol. 6 of 10 of the highest win rate champs in the last 3 seasons historically have been ASSASSINS. Mages tend to be balanced around 51%-52% scaling. Many assassins have historically had 53-56% Win rates. Mages generally will have more DAMAGE, but the assassin's damage is more MEANINGFUL and secures more kills and games.
Literally EVERY incarnation of Karma has revolved around team play. I've been around since Season 3, and she's always been support, especially when she had her aoe damage shield, because she could apply it to her adc, and used to be able to shield turrets. She has never been a greater offensive champion, because her damage kit has never been good at securing solo lane kills, and has generally only been half effective at wave clearing. Q's size used to limit it to 4 CS, and only if you used R to empower it, putting it on cooldown. Furthermore, her passive is designed for duo lane.... more champions hit = lower R cooldowns. Solo lane it is not impactful! P.S. I mained Karma up until the current season, where I've more or less dumped her because damage burst has made anything but uninteractive Q spam play uninteractive. You basically have one way to play her in season 9, and that's not how I like my champions.
Nami's Q is FAR less reliable to hit with than friggin Lux's Q. Morg's Q is also less reliable to hit, and literally requires a clear line of sight and the right geometry.

Mild slow? up to 45% is "mild?" Aoe zoning with up to 5 second duration is "mild?" When I play Lux, her slow is HUGE You do not have to pop E as soon as you cast it. You can force opponents to stay in it, and pop as soon as they almost exit it. It can also proc Font of life as a support. That's up to 5 seconds your adc heals for you hitting the slow. Her E is by far a better zoning tool than either Nami OR Morg have, because she doesn't have to put herself at risk to use it.

P.S. Nami can do just as much damage as Lux...... if not more, when played correctly.

MiracleMorg94Jun 25, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I didn't downvote you. someone else did.

Trying to argue some sentiment as an excuse as to "what people think" is a fallacious argument on its face. You need to word your arguments in ways where you're not telling readers "what you think they think and why they think that."

No it's not.

She doesn't counter Pyke (well not the current Pyke). That's a major misnomer. She makes lane phase more difficult, but Pyke still wins the game, because nothing she has stops his Ult or a short distance Q. He can also escape her R and Q easily. The only thing she "counters" is his pull (the damage still passes through) and the stun.

Pyke does not win the game unless she has one or more feeding teammates or any combination of afk, trolls, etc.

Mages do NOT have higher statistical win rates than AD and assassins lol. 6 of 10 of the highest win rate champs in the last 3 seasons historically have been ASSASSINS. Mages tend to be balanced around 51%-52% scaling. Many assassins have historically had 53-56% Win rates. Mages generally will have more DAMAGE, but the assassin's damage is more MEANINGFUL and secures more kills and games.

It's always been mages have had higher winrates. I don't know where you've been but that's the consensus around here. Just because some assassins have been in the top lately is because Riot brought Runes Reforged in and the snowball shit fest that came out of that let them come on top. Before? MAGES all the way.

And no, assassins damage is not more meaningful and does not secure more kills and games. Assassins fall off late game, where mages shine, not to mention mages have the AOE damage- the more MEANINGFUL damage, to secure way more kills.

Literally EVERY incarnation of Karma has revolved around team play. I've been around since Season 3, and she's always been support, especially when she had her aoe damage shield, because she could apply it to her adc, and used to be able to shield turrets. She has never been a greater offensive champion, because her damage kit has never been good at securing solo lane kills, and has generally only been half effective at wave clearing. Q's size used to limit it to 4 CS, and only if you used R to empower it, putting it on cooldown. Furthermore, her passive is designed for duo lane.... more champions hit = lower R cooldowns. Solo lane it is not impactful! P.S. I mained Karma up until the current season, where I've more or less dumped her because damage burst has made anything but uninteractive Q spam play uninteractive. You basically have one way to play her in season 9, and that's not how I like my champions.

I've always seen her mid until Riot buffed her shield numbers and changed her passive. Go find other Karma fans and they will agree as well.

Nami's Q is FAR less reliable to hit with than friggin Lux's Q. Morg's Q is also less reliable to hit, and literally requires a clear line of sight and the right geometry.

Uh what? Hell no.

Mild slow? up to 45% is "mild?" Aoe zoning with up to 5 second duration is "mild?" When I play Lux, her slow is HUGE You do not have to pop E as soon as you cast it. You can force opponents to stay in it, and pop as soon as they almost exit it. It can also proc Font of life as a support. That's up to 5 seconds your adc heals for you hitting the slow. Her E is by far a better zoning tool than either Nami OR Morg have, because she doesn't have to put herself at risk to use it.

Morg and Nami don't put themselves in risk either, and their CC is way more reliable and better zoning than Lux, not to mention that most champions just walk/dash/jump right out of her E.

P.S. Nami can do just as much damage as Lux...... if not more, when played correctly.

People don't build Nami full AP, and that's just downright false. Lux has higher AP ratios and numbers, as a mid lane mage should, therefore Nami can never do more damage than Lux can.

IllabetheJun 25, 20191 votes

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champions/

Order by win rate and learn.

In Season 8, Talon and Zed were #1 and 3. Aurelian Sol was #2, and Karthus #10, Varus #5 In Season 7, Zed was #1, Talon #4, Akali #3, Vayne #5

In Pyke vs Morg:

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Pyke/ Morg doesn't even place as 50% + Win rate vs Pyke.....

On Assassins vs Mage kills:

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/detailed/

Order by Kills and Learn. (Not a single mage in the first 15 spots).

Karma:

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Karma/

Picked 4 times as much as support as Mid, and 3 times as much as Top.....

P.S. Riot never buffed Karma's shield NUMBERS. They buffed the move speed duration.

Karma Patches:

V9.12 Inner Flame Inner Flame Slow strength increased to 35% from 25%.

Inspire Inspire Mana cost reduced to 50 / 55 / 60 / 65 / 70 from 60 / 65 / 70 / 75 / 80. Bonus movement speed duration increased to 2.5 seconds from 1.5. V9.6

V8.21 Focused Resolve Focused Resolve Root duration increased to 1.4 / 1.55 / 1.7 / 1.85 / 2 seconds from 1 / 1.25 / 1.5 / 1.75 / 2.

V8.14 Stats Base mana regeneration increased to 11.5 from 8.5. Mana regeneration growth reduced to 0.5 from 0.8. Base armor increased to 26 from 20.384.

Inner Flame Inner Flame Splash radius increased to 280 from 250.

Soulflare Soulflare Base detonation damage reduced to 35 / 140 / 245 / 350 from 50 / 150 / 250 / 350.

V8.12 _**Inspire Inspire Shield duration reduced to 2.5 seconds from 4.

Defiance Defiance Shield duration reduced to 2.5 seconds from 4.**_

V7.12 Inspire Inspire Base shield strength reduced to 70 / 95 / 120 / 145 / 170 from 70 / 100 / 130 / 160 / 190.

Defiance Defiance Percentage of original shield to nearby allied champions reduced to 30% from 50%.

**(Not a single Shield numbers buff in SEVEN SEASONS; They also applied shield nerfs in Season 6 and Season 7 to the "Numbers") **

Nami's Q has a .87 Second drop delay. About half the champ roster can actually evade it.....

Lux/Morg Q by comparison had much more direct targetting that is in many occasions unavoidable, move faster, and have TWICE the range.

I'm a D I Morgana/Nami player. What do I know with my 5.6 million Morg Mastery and 7.8 Million Nami mastery....

The use of Lux's E is to zone a target into a specific direction. It's a technique called "forcing." Yes. They can leave it if they want. But a Good Lux will pop it as soon as they do.... and if you use it right, it forces them to escape in a specific direction, in which a Q is waiting for them, and ideally, allies as well. It's also a pretty low cooldown....

item 3098 item 3003 item 3504 item 3174 item 3111 item 3107

Yup. No AP....... Also.... she doesn't have to HIT skills. She has a point and click.

Also, it's not like Nami is more mobile than Lux or anything..... and it's not like Mobility doesn't increase hit frequency.....

This is the one topic which I vary from the stats on: Most low damage Nami builds are purely healers and aren't using her passive properly. They are generally going defensive with a rushed Redemption and putting off AP.

MiracleMorg94Jun 25, 20191 votes

{quoted}

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champions/

Order by win rate and learn.

In Season 8, Talon and Zed were #1 and 3. Aurelian Sol was #2, and Karthus #10, Varus #5 In Season 7, Zed was #1, Talon #4, Akali #3, Vayne #5

Again. Those are Runes Reforged numbers. Six seasons before that, mages were on top. I just can't find a page that will go back that far.

Anyway, even current patch 9.12, only two assassins in the top 10. Four mages lol but you can't just use one page for stats because other pages have different ones- https://na.op.gg/statistics/champion/. Nearest assassin is Fizz at 17, so I'm taking that page you use with a grain of salt.

In Pyke vs Morg:

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Pyke/ Morg doesn't even place as 50% + Win rate vs Pyke.....

https://www.counterstats.net/league-of-legends/pyke/vs-morgana/bottom/all lists Morg at 53%. Can't just use one website dude.

On Assassins vs Mage kills:

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/detailed/

Order by Kills and Learn. (Not a single mage in the first 15 spots).

Again, only because of Runes Reforged. Just because assassins have a higher AVERAGE doesn't mean they always have the higher kills. And they definitely aren't the most meaningful.

Karma:

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Karma/

Picked 4 times as much as support as Mid, and 3 times as much as Top.....

Only because of her being pushed into support.

P.S. Riot never buffed Karma's shield NUMBERS. They buffed the move speed duration.

Karma Patches:

V9.12 Inner Flame Inner Flame Slow strength increased to 35% from 25%.

Inspire Inspire Mana cost reduced to 50 / 55 / 60 / 65 / 70 from 60 / 65 / 70 / 75 / 80. Bonus movement speed duration increased to 2.5 seconds from 1.5. V9.6

V8.21 Focused Resolve Focused Resolve Root duration increased to 1.4 / 1.55 / 1.7 / 1.85 / 2 seconds from 1 / 1.25 / 1.5 / 1.75 / 2.

V8.14 Stats Base mana regeneration increased to 11.5 from 8.5. Mana regeneration growth reduced to 0.5 from 0.8. Base armor increased to 26 from 20.384.

Inner Flame Inner Flame Splash radius increased to 280 from 250.

Soulflare Soulflare Base detonation damage reduced to 35 / 140 / 245 / 350 from 50 / 150 / 250 / 350.

V8.12 _**Inspire Inspire Shield duration reduced to 2.5 seconds from 4.

Defiance Defiance Shield duration reduced to 2.5 seconds from 4.**_

V7.12 Inspire Inspire Base shield strength reduced to 70 / 95 / 120 / 145 / 170 from 70 / 100 / 130 / 160 / 190.

Defiance Defiance Percentage of original shield to nearby allied champions reduced to 30% from 50%.

**(Not a single Shield numbers buff in SEVEN SEASONS; They also applied shield nerfs in Season 6 and Season 7 to the "Numbers") **

LOL. You need to do your research because YES, she has.

Patch 6.6: Base shield strength increased to 30 / 100 / 170 / 240 from 30 / 90 / 150 / 210. AP ratio increased to 60% AP from 30% AP.

V.1.0.0.112: Base shield strength and damage increased to 80 / 120 / 160 / 200 / 240 / 280 from 70 / 110 / 150 / 190 / 230 / 270.

Of course later in 6.15 her E was nerfed again, but if I remember right, those 6.6 changes were at the time people were asking for a rework, and all the Karma fans got were the dinky buffs that pushed her to support, and Riot has barely touched her since then.

Nami's Q has a .87 Second drop delay. About half the champ roster can actually evade it.....

Lux/Morg Q by comparison had much more direct targetting that is in many occasions unavoidable, move faster, and have TWICE the range.

I'm a D I Morgana/Nami player. What do I know with my 5.6 million Morg Mastery and 7.8 Million Nami mastery....

Nami takes more skill, she's a different type of enchanter than they are, but it makes her have more impact.

The use of Lux's E is to zone a target into a specific direction. It's a technique called "forcing." Yes. They can leave it if they want. But a Good Lux will pop it as soon as they do.... and if you use it right, it forces them to escape in a specific direction, in which a Q is waiting for them, and ideally, allies as well. It's also a pretty low cooldown....

Again, Nami and Morg are better and more reliable.

Yup. No AP....... Also.... she doesn't have to HIT skills. She has a point and click.

"P.S. Nami can do just as much damage as Lux...... if not more, when played correctly."

...

And you're saying Nami can do more damage with that build? HAHAHAHAHA.

NOPE.

Nice making me laugh dude.

Supports can never do as much damage as a mid lane mage.

Also, it's not like Nami is more mobile than Lux or anything..... and it's not like Mobility doesn't increase hit frequency.....

Lux's spam their spells just as often as a Nami so that doesn't mean anything.

This is the one topic which I vary from the stats on: Most low damage Nami builds are purely healers and aren't using her passive properly. They are generally going defensive with a rushed Redemption and putting off AP.

Duh. She's a support that shouldn't be building AP anyway. Only time you do that is in ARAM just to have fun without being reported for trolling.

NEGATIFJun 26, 20191 votes

Ey people, i play alot pyke and now is dead. you cant go tank, you cant take HP for the pasive, you cant help push your adc, you are not an assasin anymore, you are a bad hydrid thresh + rakan = PYke. the kit is great, the dmg is SAD, if you want an assasin suport please dont nerf the dmg, now is better zed as suport than pyke in the "assasin" style. TY riot keep killing champions because pyke cant anymore.

ArmaniacJul 2, 20191 votes

listen, im a pyke main, i've played him on every role (even ADC) yes he can engage and disengage pretty well but does he have a chance against a zed, talon, veigar who have MASSIVE burst damage? no! they nerfed the Q to single target and E to just deal with champs. that a problem for pyke support aswell, i mainly played him on supp, and as a pyke player i loved the fact that i can Q when the enemy is behind the minions and slow them by the stab, then E to engage, but now that's not a thing anymore, i don't care about the damage, pyke is all about Ulti, we all know that, you've never seen a pyke clutch a team fight by just using his abilities and not using his ult, but the AOE nerf on the stab is really annoying. i know if you feed pyke he can be a monster but realistically you can dodge all his abilities, W E and even the ulti. if you want to kill Solo-Pyke do something that only effects him in that position, i like the trick you can pull of with him as i mentioned one above, but now they are turning him to someone who is only worthy for the ulti and nothing else. you wanna nerf the E? nerf the damage atleast keep the stun on minions because i've done this alot when our nexus was under attack by mega minions but i E to stun them and make them target me instead of the nexuse and many other instances. you wanna nerf the Q? ok, atleast makes it like something that if theres a champ in the range of the AOE instead of hurting the minion it only hurts the champion. im not saying these are solutions because its riots job to think about these but the way they nerfed him just made him to be someone who sits back wait for enemy to get below under the threshhold and BAM! ulti just for the kill, there are many supports who even do more damage then the ADC, like veigar, and leaves the enemy with a little bit of health for the ADC. im not complaining about the damage but the fact you can stab both ADC and support to slow'em down instead of hooking just the ADC, was and is really important to me! all im reading and all the reasons im seeing is to nerf his wave clear, but riot by doing this effected support pyke alot aswell. i play him alot, sure, you wanna remove solo pyke? do something that doesn't harm the role he is made for! you may think it didn't but the nerfs made him really hard on support aswell, coming from someone who plays pyke not only on EUNE but EUW and NA.