As a top laner this meta is frustrating.

TheMusicMan·Jan 30, 2020·19 votes·21,204 views

Bot lane is the only lane that truly matters now a days. Dragons are super important, so the jungler only goes bot. Bot lanes never play even, it's either hard feed or hard carry. SUPER HARD FEED OR SUPER HARD CARRY. Adc and supp will go like 1-10 at the end of every damn game. Your role as a mid laner and top laner is joke. You won't have any impact on the game. Why is there never an even bot lane? Are the adc / supp champs truly that unbalanced? Do people truly get that outchampioned that they just can't do anything else but feed? This meta is a joke. I'd say start maining adc or supp and become really good at it! At least then you can feel like you are having ANY impact on the game.

I guess playing as an assassin champion can be rather smart aswell, try to instantly kill their adc who is most likely going to have 12 kills at 10 minutes. This meta is annoying. Even if i play super well top, it won't matter. Should i just stop playing bruiser champions? Are only mages and ad-carries viable???? anyways fuck this lane, i'm playing assassins mid from now on. Maybe then i can acctually DO SOMETHING TO IMPACT THE GAME.

92 Comments

SucctionJan 30, 20209 votes

Well yeah, unfortunately that's just how it is.

Jungle exists to help mid, so they can both roam bot.

Top exists to just tp gank bot or engage fights for them.

The entire game revolves around the bot lane, mainly because it has the most powerful objective and two people in it, and because a fed ADC is unstoppable and snowballs extremely hard. Only way to take one out if is their support is braindead and the adc solo facechecks a 2+ item assassin.

RagnaveilJan 30, 20203 votes

And i'd like to remind everyone that TP was nerfed BECAUSE of toplane. Just let that sink in for how dumb of a thing that is.

Voluug13Jan 30, 20205 votes

TP was nerfed because toplane had become a denegerate lane of ''who has the better TP gank for botlane''.

Z3SIeeperJan 30, 20204 votes

Yeah, in this context I don’t mind the nerf, just wish there was a better solution.

RagnaveilJan 30, 20204 votes

Okay? And what was Riot expecting us to do? Just sit toplane and get outscaled?

Average AhriJan 30, 20207 votes

I think youre wrong buddy. I am a top/mid main. You can op.gg i have not played a single adc or supp game. Im only jg fill when absolutely necessary and i carry most of my games. You simply need to obliterate your lane and rotate to obliterate the rest. A fed top laner will 2v1 bot easy same with mid. My last game i was lvl 8 when my bot lane was 5. I simply SMASH/collide/charge/slam into them killing them both.

HazeVictoryJan 30, 20203 votes

Your opponent must get braindead junglers who allow you to have that much of an impact.

Average AhriJan 30, 20202 votes

{quoted}

Your opponent must get braindead junglers who allow you to have that much of an impact.

To be fair youre not wrong. however, with jungle in the state it is now. Solo lane often out lvl jg so much when ahead that it's not worth it.

SucctionJan 31, 20201 votes

[{quoted}](name=Average Ahri,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mKZ5AzmK,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2020-01-30T12:44:45.714+0000)

I think youre wrong buddy. I am a top/mid main. You can op.gg i have not played a single adc or supp game. Im only jg fill when absolutely necessary and i carry most of my games. You simply need to obliterate your lane and rotate to obliterate the rest. A fed top laner will 2v1 bot easy same with mid. My last game i was lvl 8 when my bot lane was 5. I simply SMASH/collide/charge/slam into them killing them both.

The problem is that you can't consistently "obliterate" your lane.

Winning lane top isn't enough to be useful. You need to be fed. You need to win 1v2s and take towers.

Being better than the enemy top doesn't mean you can affect a game in the slightest. It's why I straight up dropped the lane.

Average AhriFeb 2, 20201 votes

{quoted}

The problem is that you can't consistently "obliterate" your lane.

Winning lane top isn't enough to be useful. You need to be fed. You need to win 1v2s and take towers.

Being better than the enemy top doesn't mean you can affect a game in the slightest. It's why I straight up dropped the lane.

A good Tp is often enough to secure a lead. I'm not good enough to give any pointers but when im fed i force my team to do objective by constantly pinging and telling them to do it. the power curve for top lane is relatively early. So what does that translate too? well instead of hoping for a 5v5. you can force it yourself because more often than not. People don't simply give objectives away. So one ace and youre set for inhib or nexus.

JackMcCarryJan 30, 20207 votes

As an adc main, your "impact" is as relevent as your team's ability to "let you" impact, in other words, even if im fed - if my team wont peel, engage and group for me, im not gonna impact anything, because no matter how fed i am, unless im so broken shit like Aphelios, all it takes to "deal" with me is 1 ability to hit me and im gone. Meawhile when i get my secondary role in top i just pick Ornn or Sett and if i even get a little lead i can at least control when i wanna fight or engage, and worse case scenerio, peel for my team.

I'd take fighting against a 12-0 Vayne over fighting a 12-0 Sett or Riven any day because i know that at least if my team lands 1 cc on her, she's out of the fight.

RagnaveilJan 30, 20201 votes

In before Vayne full stacks rageblade and perma spams q as she dodges your cc unless its point click, in that case she would have qss bought.

JackMcCarryJan 30, 20204 votes

INB4 Sett's runs at me with deadmen's, Q and phage, point and click ults me into a pull/stun into a 100-0 W true damage while shrugging off my team's damage. See? i can make up scenarios too, Vayne as fed as she is, will always hit only 1 person on my team and AT MOST cc 1 guy while always playing at a pretty medium range, Sett on the other hand can man handle half my team with his AoE ult, W and E, without needing people to engage or peel for him.

Both will be cancer to fight against, i'll still take my chances against a Vayne if i know my team has any sign of a reliable enagege.

RagnaveilJan 30, 20202 votes

Hol up. You think hes going to do 100-0 true damage on W? If you actually looked at what his W does, maybe you'd understand how FORGIVING it is to counterplay, unlike Vayne's that does what? % Max Health True Damage, which scales harder as the game goes on compared to Sett's flat damage? Sure, his scales with his health, but unless you blow everything and CANT kill him, he'll never min-max W instantly.

So please, keep overexaggurating Sett. Sure, his W base could use a nerf. Thats all it needs, but Riot did the better idea and made it have a larger cooldown all ranks, meaning he has to be smart with the use.

JackMcCarryJan 30, 20203 votes

Hol up. You think hes going to do 100-0 true damage on W?

After Ult and E? yea, im pretty much out of the fight, even if i flash out of there and somehow survive with a 10% health, im not fighting that teamfight.

If you actually looked at what his W does, maybe you'd understand how FORGIVING it is to counterplay,

"BUT YOU NEED TO DAMAGE HIM FOR HIM TO CHARGE HIS W! JUST DONT ATTACK HIM" is not "FORGIVING" counterplay.

Vayne's that does what? % Max Health True Damage, which scales harder as the game goes on compared to Sett's flat damage?

Vayne pops like a balloon the second a single CC hits her, her W doesnt have counterplay, but she's easier to deal with, i literally abuse sett myself from time to time when im bored, if you lose with him against any match up, it's on you, literally all you have to do is run into people until you're in E range and you automaticly win the trade. Because i played both him and Vayne, i can say that in my opinion (which is what this whole post's point) i'd teamfight against a 12-0 Vayne, over a 12-0 Sett.

Daddy AntsJan 30, 20202 votes

{quoted}

Because i played both him and Vayne, i can say that in my opinion (which is what this whole post's point is) i'd teamfight against a 12-0 Vayne, over a 12-0 Sett.

I'd rather fight a 12-0 Vayne over a 0-0 Sett

let alone a 12-0 Sett

Knight SoIaire Feb 2, 20201 votes

{quoted}

As an adc main, your "impact" is as relevent as your team's ability to "let you" impact, in other words, even if im fed - if my team wont peel, engage and group for me, im not gonna impact anything, because no matter how fed i am, unless im so broken shit like Aphelios, all it takes to "deal" with me is 1 ability to hit me and im gone. Meawhile when i get my secondary role in top i just pick or and if i even get a little lead i can at least control when i wanna fight or engage, and worse case scenerio, peel for my team.

I'd take fighting against a 12-0 over fighting a 12-0 or any day because i know that at least if my team lands 1 cc on her, she's out of the fight.

id like to add to that... there are also champions which can delete said adc to the point where your team cant do anything... so not only did you go 10/1 in laning phase but you will also have less impact than enemy adc because enemies picked something Rengar Diana Ekko and will just click on you from time to time

even Aphelios with his GLOBAL RANGE can be simply deleted from the game in champion select

did i mention Shyvana usually takes 70% of adc's live with a single e?

in the end adc is plainly infuriating to play... no matter how good you play your capability to contribute is decided in champion select ... and your agency in game can drop literaly to 0.

JackMcCarryFeb 2, 20202 votes

I have a friends who i duo and flex with from time to time, im the only one in my friends group who plays adc, they play solo lanes (top, mid/jungle), everytime we go to normals or decide to switch it up and one of them has to play adc, they realise how out of control the game is for them, suddenly they cant just roam around the map whenever they like, they cant even farm under turret if one of their team mates isnt there to peel for them. Get caught in jungle? dead, enemy team has good engage? dead, enemy team has a fed assassin? dead.

Supports decide laning phase, 100%, tanks/midlane/jungle decide mid game, even late game you're still in the mercy of your team's ability to macro correctly.

Anyone who thinks marksmen have any more agency than toplane on the game's outcome need to play a few games of adc, you wont understand how much agency you lack as an adc until you get out of lane fed AF but watch as some 2-5 Ekko blows you up while your support blinked.

Despite all that i dont think marksmen need buffs, they are team relient by design and that is fine by me, but people need to realise that our damage comes at the price of our agency.

Knight SoIaire Feb 2, 20201 votes

{quoted} Despite all that i dont think marksmen need buffs, they are team relient by design and that is fine by me, but people need to realise that our damage comes at the price of our agency.

i wont agree with you here... i dont think that adc should get buffed cause they are working as intended imo but i clearly see that riots meddling with exp and recent buffs is something that should be looked into... cause right now the entire game is a giant burst fest to the point where peeling starts being pointless... you as an adc can dodge something or avoid getting instagibbed and your team can collapse on the assailant... but once he has you, you are dead and noone on your team can change that.

TranscendVirtualFeb 6, 20201 votes

This is my favorite post on the boards. It perfectly describes what people don't understand about ADC. Like I can't do anything when someone can pop me like a balloon while I'm fed as hell and they aren't, meanwhile a toplaner who comes out of lane 16/3 is like an unkillable god. I don't think we need buffs, but people do need to understand that marksmen are squishy as hell and anyone who wants my ass basically can have it no matter their state in the game. There's too much damage in the game when anyone in the game can do my entire health bar in their combo no matter if they're ahead or not.

Ionian VulpixJan 30, 20205 votes

When aren't top laners frustrated by the meta? Do they actually play the game or just complain about it?

QuinnovaJan 30, 20206 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ionian Vulpix,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mKZ5AzmK,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2020-01-30T14:30:48.895+0000)

When aren't top laners frustrated by the meta? Do they actually play the game or just complain about it?

perhaps toplaners are always frustrated with the meta because the meta always fucks them over. it's really not that hard to figure this out. playing toplane sucks and has sucked for several seasons now.

Exodus247Jan 30, 20206 votes

Imagine the fool above you thinking that top laners dont actually play the game and experience this bullshit, and instead just bandwagon onto it. We arent complaining for no reason, its actually fucked up there, and at this point it shouldent even be called a lane.

IainG10Jan 31, 20203 votes

I'm a Support Main, and having played Top to try to climb out of Riot's moronic pushback they gave everyone at Season start, I can safely say Toplaners have a very valid point.

The Bad TouchFeb 6, 20201 votes

{quoted}

perhaps toplaners are always frustrated with the meta because the meta always fucks them over. it's really not that hard to figure this out. playing toplane sucks and has sucked for several seasons now.

You know back in season 1 and 2 top laners were usually mages and adc's were usually mid. You know way back before Riot enforced a meta.

RagnaveilJan 30, 20204 votes

We do, and we play it as much as we complain about it. Why? Because the balance team is complacent in helping us at all. Man, bot's weak from the changes we did to ADC, lets revert that in 2 patches. Oh, tops still shit? Meh, lets sweep it under the rug again. Oh, I guess we could make a change that SOUNDS like a top buff, but in reality its a midlane god buff. Words are words, I want fuckin' actions from the balance team to tell me they care.

Sire HippingtonJan 31, 20201 votes

I was pretty happy from S1 till early S5, then fiora and gp reworks came but it still was ok - till the juggernaut update and from there things went down and never really recovered.

HåneriJan 30, 20203 votes

i rly dont wanna be rude but wtf man, how u think bot is only lane that matters, top isnt strong i get it but look at the fking poll they did of lcs players, 40.7% think jg is most impactful and 43% said mid, only 4.7% said bot and thats even less than supp. and thats in pro play where adc are arguably even stronger than in solo queue lmfao.

bot lane is supp and jg diff, mid too cause they roam bot all the time. no early game impact as adc cause all u do is farm and rely on your supp to engage or whatever or jg to gank. top laners are never bot but holy shit is it that hard to understand that if jg mid diff is huge and they just gank bot on repeat one bot lane will be super ahead?

anyways if ur serious about what u said then yes do play mid, im doig that on this acc too cause its the most impactful role by far.

RekSai CoffeeCoJan 30, 20202 votes

I seem to remember that quite a few top lanes complained that jungle pressure top was too much for so long time and then they changed that and now top lane is complaining about jungler only worrying about bot lane?

wolviusJan 30, 20203 votes

[{quoted}](name=RekSai CoffeeCo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mKZ5AzmK,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2020-01-30T11:18:37.518+0000)

I seem to remember that quite a few top lanes complained that jungle pressure top was too much for so long time and then they changed that and now top lane is complaining about jungler only worrying about bot lane?

Well its probably common that one jungler will camp bot and somehow lose 3v2 and then the other "winning" team jungler just camps the shit outta top because their botlaners doing fine on their own and repeat killing the toplaner seems worth more xp than farming camps.

Maybe go for drake afterwards if the enemy jung fucks up or possibly mid and bot combined could easily take dragon anyway if the enemy jungler lost 3v2 botlane since for some brilliant reason early dragons are near 1000 less hp this season like wtf.

######said "losing" jungler also prob wont visit toplane at all to help and continue failing to achieve any thing bot.

But honestly top is always going to complain about ganking jungs since they are in the longest lane as melee (well tied for longest but you get the idea) and when their behind they cant touch the wave.......also prob ably why they hate ranged so much.

RagnaveilJan 30, 20203 votes

Well that and most of our good champs just get outscaled by ADCs anyway, so by the time we were to have any impact, the ADCs difference already decides it.

Sire HippingtonJan 31, 20201 votes

They never changed that, jungle still has high impact on lanes with powerfull early ganks cause the first clear xp weren't touched, and with lower rewards per camp, people are more inclined to focus on ganks than ever.

The relevance bot mostly applies to hgih elo, and even then it's often not befor the ~10 min mark that it really gets clear focus from both sides. For the earlygame, junglers still have to indentify their strong side and play around that to get an advantage and THEN use that advantage on the bot-side. And Toplaners still have not much options to deal with junglers early other than sitting under their tower all day long. Early vision remains a joke with ~33% ward uptime, and with many junglers reaching lvl 2/3 even befor top and haveing double buff+full health, ther still is the threat of junglers actually soloing laners in early ganks. Sure, if your get ahead in lane and make it to the midgame, you actually get to a point where you can 1v2 the enemie jungle+top, but if you get set behind in the early lane, that doesn't help. It rather makes it harder to recover from early camping and all you can do is prey that your jungler managed to get your bot ahead while you got camped.

GoldsmithSmartyJan 30, 20202 votes

When your team sucks hard and you're doing well in the top lane, start to roam. Gather with your entire team and try to get shutdowns. This is the only way to win from behind. If your team plays as 5 but enemy team hesitated a bit and didn't group in time, you are very likely to get an upper hand.

If you are losing in top lane and your team is also losing, gather with your team still.

Of course you are likely to lose a game with 3/25 kill difference, but following this tip will amp your chances significantly.

The only way a top laner can make an impact is when he joins his team.

Also pick matters. If you went Morde top, you can carry the game by yourself. If you picked Alistar, well, not so much.

ŚhunpoJan 30, 20201 votes

Don't forget the fact that top lane is currently dominated by Sett Mordekaiser and ranged top laners that remove all the fun from the lane. You can't trade into them, you can't properly all-in them, you don't outscale them and the moment they're picked they always have an innate advantage over you.

This also feeds into why 1st picking for top lane is basically suicide at this point. You pick Darius only to have your opponent pick Kennen Vayne Cassiopeia Teemo Jayce Gnar Vladimir or Ryze and then you're pretty much just a burden for your team throughout the entirety of that game; unless of course your lane opponent plays like a chimp and allows you to get into auto range.

We were promised nerfs to ranged top laners this season, and yet all they have gotten are buffs. What's going on here?

RagnaveilJan 30, 20203 votes

I mean, Sett isn't like "broken", the only reason why hes being played much is because hes the only other competent juggernaut beside Morde, and Morde can easily put Sett 10 feet under. Aside from that, our lane has no structure. It never has, and it boggles my mind the balance team never considered giving it structure.

ŚhunpoJan 31, 20201 votes

He's broken atm, don't even try to sugarcoat it. He NEEDS nerfs to his numbers ASAP.

I agree though, top lane has no structure, it's kinda just where you run either really cheesy picks and/or playstyles or you pick champions to stonewall the laning phase and peel for your carries later on.

Basically, whenever there's something broken that promotes unhealthy interactivity with your lane opponent, such as Kleptomancy, top lane is the lane which suffers the most.

RagnaveilJan 31, 20201 votes

Overtuned on W. However its being nerfed by cd, which isn't a bad idea.

ŚhunpoJan 31, 20201 votes

His W shouldn't be a nuke, it already gives him a shield and deals TRUE damage (in the centre). Seriously, just give it a worse AD ratio.

RagnaveilJan 31, 20201 votes

So what, should it hit for shit? Once it winds up he cant change where it goes, and it consumes all grit, leaving him susceptible to burst.

ŚhunpoJan 31, 20201 votes

It should hit for a decent amount of base damage, it shouldn't be a nuke.

RagnaveilJan 31, 20201 votes

Its losing 20 damage max rank, you happy? Hes losing some hp per 5, getting the cd upped, and lost base damage on W as you max it.

ŚhunpoJan 31, 20201 votes

20 damage is nothing lmao

RagnaveilFeb 1, 20201 votes

It lowers the amount a 0 intake damage W does. The cd change is huge.

ŚhunpoFeb 1, 20201 votes

Still doesn't change the fact it's a nuke.

Humb1e Rumb1eJan 31, 20201 votes

Morde can easily put Sett 10 feet under.

You are literally lying tho? Sett runs into him and literally murders him(and every other matchup, except 3 or 4 champs). Say what you want, but Sett vs Mord has 57%.........

Best case scenerio is to not interact with Sett as Mord, get seekers/tabi and wait for your team to do stuff. In tf, you will take one out while Sett slams his aoe ult into rest of your team...

It's just funny to watch you defend this champ... I bet you were one of those "Sett is finally champ that is balanced on release"

RagnaveilJan 31, 20201 votes

Once you have tabis/seekers, you have the advantage over him. You can force him to 1v1, its not that hard. Harass with Q, if he tries to counter it, E him, then R and bam, you can kill him.

Humb1e Rumb1eJan 31, 20201 votes

Um, no? It isn't numerically possible to kill him yourself as Mord as long as you are the only source of dmg. You either need another teammate, turret or some weird missplay, like Sett afking/aaing minions.

RagnaveilJan 31, 20201 votes

You sell Morde really fucking short ngl. First off, % mpen on E exists. Second, % max health damage AOE vs Sett having it on two Q autos. Third, Morde sustain > Sett sustain. And finally, Sett's base MR is just as bad as any melee's MR right now, so theres no excuse.

TranscendVirtualFeb 6, 20201 votes

How is mord sustain greater than sett sustain when Set has a garen like passive?

SmyrageFeb 7, 20201 votes

The comment section contains a lot of weird, contradicting opinions regarding Top Lane.

Top Lane by its nature was always, is and will always be heavily matchup dependent. The problem is that many of you really don't influence the game, because you stay on your own lane all the time. Why was it a problem that you could use Teleport to gank botlane? Teleport CD was nerfed, because Top players weren't punished enough if they used TP as a quick ticket to return to their lane. Generally I don't see majority of the Top Laners doing any of these:

ganking mid
invading enemy jungle
defending jungle
taking and using Teleport for the purpose it was meant to be
just saying that majority of the Top Lane champions can solo the Herald, jungle presence is not even necessary for it

What you are saying about Top Lane is true for Mid Lane, Bot Lane and Jungle as well. Also stop buffing solo lanes for making Top more Impactful, because those buffs will only make Mid Lane more oppressive. Mid Laners are already at Lv6, when Bot Lane is at Lv4. These buffs only make Bot Lane more volatile.