A Kayle mains lament

arkment·3/6/2019, 11:22:07 AM·28 votes·13,144 views

Hello all

As the title suggests I am a kayle main, well was

The new rework for kayle came out and after nervously waiting to see if my champion was going to be op or ruined

I was strangely surprised to find both

after playing roughly 10 games with her in Top, mid and ADC I found the experience rather horrible

She is so lacklustre and vulnerable early on that nearly anyone can push her off farm or trade into her without fear of an equal trade

In nearly all my games I was crushed in lane because she can not contend with the bruisers in top, the mages/assassins in mid or the range of an adc with a support in botlane

I had to struggle to farm and to just survive

Now this is fine but sadly once I got my late game of lv 11+ it was just to late, gaining range meant nothing because of the snowball meta we are in the game was almost not winable at that point

I would like to suggest some ways I believe that could change her into a more viable character However I am not to use all of these but maybe one or two of these

option 1: change her lv6 passive to become range and swap the attack speed to lv 11 with the aoe dmg

without the range kayle gained from her old E she lacks viable damage early on, she is not healthy enough to contest a bruiser, lacks the burst to trade with an assassin, and lacks any range to deal with a mage/adc the range she would gain would make farming a bit healthier

option 2: Change how the Q skills shot works/increase its slow percent

Kayle Q becoming a skill shot is something I figured would happen, however it is a bizarre skill shot that functions very strangely and is unreliable as sometimes it goes through minions and sometimes falls short (if someone can shed light on this I would be appreciative) and when it does land it takes her awhile to get into range to take advantage, or if you are using it to kite early on to stop the enemy running you down it feels like it barely slows

option 3: Put the slow on her E?

Now this one im doubtful would be fitting but your E has longer range and would be a great way to start a trade/skirmish. Additionally I actual enjoy the new E it feels good for an auto attack enhancement so good work there

option 4: allow her q to go though multiple targets/ Instant cast instead of a short channel

This would be useful if they slow speed is not increased as it would give her some actual valid cc that could be used to kite better or run down enemies

option 5: Her ult channel is to long in my opinion 1.5 seconds when it lasts 2 second rank one is a bit annoying as she is a basic attack champion and thats where her damage comes from, so forcing her to channel her ult to deal damage never made sense to me

option 6 : Possibly have her passive stacks decay 1 at a time instead of all at once

I would suggest either a 0.75 – 1 second channel so she can go back to auto attacking faster, or reduce/remove the damage and have it act as a mass slow so that she can kite enemies better

Kayle was my first main and I loved her style of play since I started playing league of legends back in season 5

I love what I see riot trying to do with her in this rework but I feel like they were very cautious about making her straight up busted, and I applauded them for that

But in this kayle mains opinion she needs be buffed/tweaked to become viable

If anyone out there has success with her please let me know how you managed that

If anyone who worked on kayle could explain why you chose to do certain things with her I would love to hear from you, as I tried to predict how you would alter her and was I was somewhat close

Thanks for your time


Update

New idea if they allowed her E to be used as a way to farm by allowing it to reset on minion kills and refund mana

Say 100% mana refund with 50%-100% off the cooldown 

this would give her the feel of range prior to lv 11 and still keep her melee

63 Comments

Thats Karma3/6/2019, 11:45:41 AM17 votes

They will shove her numbers around but 10 games isn't enough to make a fair judgement, especially if you're used to playing her the old way. I advise trying to survive the lane and being extremely passive. I've seen gameplay videos and she looks more like a midlaner/jungler right now because of how top lane is.

Elainea3/6/2019, 12:23:23 PM11 votes

While I am not a Kayle main, I have played with many of them since the re-work, and have observed that she seems to be a bit all over the place; and does not have a solid position to fill.

She is mele but lacks the damage or CC to skirmish with bruisers or tanks in the top lane, which when combined with the fact that she has less Health than a Marksman, makes her an easy target for anyone to kill. So her objective is essentially to farm it out until she can get to her ascension. However. . . when she reaches level 6, her basic attacks start to passively push her wave with AOE and deny the player from establishing a comfortable freeze.

So from lvl 6 onwards, not only is Kayle behind due to having lower damage, health and no real way of skirmishing, her passive essentially forces to push out her wave and expose herself, with limited mobility to escape, and no defensive options aside from her ult; which is now useless unless kayle is working with a team-mate because she can't deal any damage while channelling it.

So this rules out top-lane for Kayle

Mid lane is more of the same. If Kayle is versing a Mage she is outraged and has no way to get on top of her enemies, her slow is telegraphed through its wind up and put's kayle in a vulnerable position; often resulting in her being hit with a stun, snare, root or some other skill shot. Leaving her unable to follow up on the slow she just landed to initiate a trade.

As for Assasin matches, Kayles damage and trade potential is so abysmally low in the early stages, that any Assasin with a gap-closer can simply jump on top of her and kill her without any retaliation. Because not only is Kayles Q a skill shot, it slows about as much as Red-buff basics.

While I understand that Kayle is intended to be strongest in the late game, she lacks the tools to actually get her there without feeding every opponent that she plays into.

Which leads me to Marksman Kayle.

This seems to be the only place that Kayle can survive without feeding horribly, not because her skills are doing anything for her here, but because she has a support who is zoning enemies so that Kayle can farm safely, making up for her complete lack of CC or mobility. Which, I will note that Every ADC has 1 of 3 things in their kit, Hard CC, a Dash of some form, or Long Range. Kayle has none of these. Even Ashe and Kogmaw have something to make up for their lack of mobility, Kogmaw has his long-range Balista at Lvl 6 and Ashe gets a Stun, so as long as they survive until level 6 they have a fighting chance. But even without these things, Ashe and Kogmaw have aoe slowing effects and can Kite away from their enemies, where Kayle has to get up close and personal - bringing us back to her Health which is less than that of an ADC.

Finally, we have support.

She has no poke. No cc. Her heal is barely noticeable. She dies if caught by enemy supports cc. The only solid mechanics she has as a Support are her speed buff and Ultimate, which only works when cast on the ally, because Kayle is locked out of the fight for the duration of her Chanel.

All in all, I am seriously disappointed in how this champion turned out. When I read the directional manifestos and Lore for Kayle, she felt like she was meant to be a bruisery-skirmisher, Somewhere in the realm of Fiora and Olaf, where she would engage with high-risk plays and be rewarded for extended trades, but her kit does not lend to that at all in the early game, because her engage tool requires her to literally run at people, and he health is so low that by the time she gets into mele range she has already been half beaten up.

I feel that this tried too hard to keep to the original Kayle theme of staying back farming to late game, but just took her farming and safety tools away.

My recommendations for giving Kayle a clear direction would be the following;

Change her W to a Dash, similar to that of Fiora/Aatrox/Riven/Irelia where upon landing on a champion she gains either, healing, true damage, or stuns her enemies

or

Change her Q to give her a form of hard CC so that she can retreat from bad fights, or engage/deny enemy tower-diving,

and

Revert her Ultimate so that she can actually participate in fights while it is up. I like the AOE that was added to this, but changing it to be a mass AOE slow to keep enemies in range of her damage suits her aesthetic and lore much better (She is meant to rain Judgement down upon the wicked in a lone battle to bring Justice to the world - that's what her lore indicates)

Valkar3/6/2019, 5:42:26 PM5 votes

I agree 100% with the OP.

She has been ruined and I dont just mean the stats. Her core gameplay is stressful to get CS and farm, and it takes way too long for her to be viable in combat against other champs.

Psychø ßeta3/6/2019, 12:59:39 PM5 votes

Play her jng. She have to get her passive power spikes, but can't fight in lane with anybody and I mean ANYBODY so just play solo jng and stack up for late game and item/passive spikes. Try it. It will work. I just don't know which rune to use yet. Fleet footwork feels like a safe pick. Kayle is completely trash in early game and early game wins you most of your games. Just try to be useless in jng, until u can 1v5. When jng gets reverted, wait for it, she will be trashing everybody. Or if she gets buffed early game, she might be even good in lane.

ApeLivesMatter3/6/2019, 5:57:25 PM5 votes

another shitty rework. What riot is best for. Useless until 11 when she gets range. cannot use ult on herself because she has a dumb animation for it and now has a mana cost. I'm probably missing more since I only played her in training.

I swear I knew they would ruin the ult and I was right but was not expecting to obliterate her. oh well...

nGio3/6/2019, 6:29:02 PM5 votes

I figured as much. I saw the "omfg wtf dude, she gets true damage at 16?! So fucking op man". Kayle stuck at melee range during the laning phase? Well, who gives a shit what happens at 16, because she isn't making it there. As far as the laning phase goes, the new Kayle is just like the old one, if the old one couldn't be ranged on demand. She wasn't performing particularly well when she could fight from range, so I don't know why in the fuck they though she'd be anything but shit tier without it.

Flawless Fetus3/7/2019, 1:11:09 AM4 votes

Passive falling off one at a time would help loads. So would flipping the level 6 and 11 passives. Both great ideas. I, like you, think she could use a little early game love. I do like this iteration of a scaling champ, though. Crap early and strong late. A lot cooler than jaxs go to lane to dominate. Lol.

Hemulen Magi3/6/2019, 4:51:46 PM4 votes

I think Kayle should trade some lategame scaling for earlygame survivabilty (defense + sustain) so that she can risk farming/trading while melee. I don't think she's a good fit purely balanced around a glasscannon hyperscaling playstyle. I think she should have the option of playing glasscannon, but it shouldn't be her only or best option, as it comes at the cost of the current ultra vulnerable earlygame. I am not saying Kayle should be a tank, but she should have the options to build fighter-level amounts of survivability like Fiora or Irelia or Gangplank. Obviously, that option should come at a cost to her lategame though if she chooses it. I think %hp base healing on her w like Gangplank's oranges would be a good change to open up build options without pushing her too far into a single playstyle. [Posting from my phone, so apologies on typos and lack of formatting.]

HundredsofMages3/7/2019, 3:46:49 AM4 votes

This rework seems a little ridiculous for me. I cannot see any reason for this rework. It has not bring any new meaningful mechanics to Kayle. Everything the new Kayle has, the old Kayle has it. The only new thing is the new passive, but it seems more like a debuff to Kayle for me. It is totally irrelevant to Kayle's skills. The designer just force this passive to Kayle and arbitrarily force her to become 'useful' after level 11. Is there any connection or any cool combination between this passive and her QWER skills?

lil koda3/6/2019, 5:50:47 PM4 votes

"we want games to go by quicker so we increased damage a shit ton to speed it up" makes kayle only usefull at level 11 and good at 16

Meteora7073/6/2019, 4:38:03 PM3 votes

she got turned into a melee, she will never be played top or bot again so you'll have to go into one of the 3 other roles. she probably isn't great mid either

Linna Excel3/7/2019, 12:11:03 AM3 votes

I still need to play more with her, but her kit looks like it's going to be a nightmare to balance. I think riot should have made her a full time ranged champ just to make her easier to balance overall. As is, she seems like she's going to be a champ that .5% of the player base is going to main and they will be the only ones playing her just because of how extreme her design is.

Chaeor3/7/2019, 3:29:09 AM3 votes

ok @Riot umm we need to talk a bit

so the new kayle is to be quite honest very bad not regular bad but bafflingly . sorry for being rude alright lets state as to why so i went kayle top vs a yorick (it should be a decent match up and it was )** keeping in mind how easily she was going to get destroyed and all i took precision resolve focusing on attack speed and survivability** . i took 1 attack speed 2 armor on sub stats . the lane first 15 mins was spent well i was 0/1/0 and due to a dive but didnt fall behind much . the problem is that** her base stats are super weak ( then again that is expected ) but ALSO her scaling too no matter how hard i try to lets say contest a mage or an ADC (which most likely has a item 3094 ) at level 16 not only they have the range advantage but at the same time half health me before i can get close (but that is understandable). the main issue i found is that her ultimate is super bad the fact that you cant AA in mid cast causes her to be an open CC magnet and skillshot reciver (yes i understand i need to learn how to dodge but _335 MS is too slow even azir didnt see play due to the MS nerf he got**_ ) which takes us to the point back again her base stats weather of utility or attack or defense are super low. as for the ultimate not every new mage needs to have Neeko ults on them just saying . sigh but seriously revert that ultimate and do a small buff on her E (its not good at all to have 30 base dmg on AAs at level 16 have 245 AP and get only 45 bonus dmg on her) cause in fights 100% of the enemy CC is going to hit her so **give her more Kite quality of life changes **because she is seriously disgusting to play. sorry for being rude again but please consider it . oh yeah and she **drops alot of FPS in games too on some weak pcs **

Kayle ßot3/6/2019, 5:41:39 PM3 votes

this is a alt account in progress and as you can tell i like kayle. so far with only 3 or 4 games i can say she feels absolutely miserable to play from 1-10 and i feel like she lacks anywhere to go because its just that bad. Jungle was my worst experience next to support because any competent jungler will just invade, kill you and steal all your camps and you get no say in it. you need to rely on your team but then you're taking them away from their cs/xp and putting them behind. her late game is godlike and feels just unfair when you actually get there. imo nerf late game lvl 16 kayle but buff her base stats for early a bit or her heal a bit and switch her lvl 6 and 11 passives. she needs range earlier to survive. we already have champions with insane late game and none of them pay for it compared to what kayle has to pay. (tryndamere, jax, yi, nasus, fiora, yasuo)

Vekkna3/7/2019, 12:08:40 AM3 votes

To quote myself from a Kayle PBE thread:

{quoted}

I've had 7 ranked games that lasted past level 16 in the last four months combined.

Pretty sure we'll just have a very weak early game that smoothly transitions into an open nexus.

Shirvallah3/6/2019, 9:37:15 PM2 votes

As much as I'd highly advise against this otherwise, it might be our best bet right now to try Kayle as support (the thought of that's making me cringe as I type this...I hate playing carries (much less, hyper carries) in the support role), if you don't have success with her in the jungle (which is one of her last hopes currently, imo). Rather than building her as a traditional support (aside from taking Spellthief's or Coin), I'd still build her traditionally (Nashor's, Rageblade, and the like), otherwise you'd be missing out on utilizing some of the best parts of her kit.

Düff McWhalen3/6/2019, 9:53:04 PM2 votes

If we're going to talk Support Kayle, I'd say run her with Resolve tree and Support Tree.

Grasp keystone (she's melee until 11 anyway)

biscuit delivery

rush item 3504

AS I LAY FEEDING3/6/2019, 9:53:22 PM2 votes

just put first 3 points in Q and build a pure ap item first.

Tomoe Gozen3/6/2019, 11:08:39 PM2 votes

after playing roughly 10 games with her in Top, mid and ADC I found the experience rather horrible

I'm just gonna put this out there but 10 games isn't even nearly enough to accurately judge her strength or actual power level. In fact, the way you worded this leads me to believe that you played a total of 10+ games as Top, Mid and ADC combined, which are three different positions entirely and they don't play the same.

##Bot lane

Given Kayle's lack of range in the first 6 levels, it's to be expected that her trade on bot lane (against a ranged Marksman and their support) is going to suck. That's where you can get zoned out of gold and against a healer or a heavy shielder (or poke supports) and you're basically just stuck taking damage and trading very little, considering Kayle doesn't have a completely offensive kit and that her damage should also come from her AAs as the game progresses. Not to mention that when you ult, you can't attack so that's a loss to DPS regardless of who you're shielding, when we're talking about the defensive use of her ult.

##Mid lane

Mid is basically full of ranged aggressive mages or assassins like Zed/Fizz. Again, champions like these tend to make the first move and making the first move isn't Kayle's strong point in the first 6 levels. Except her E, nothing is point and click or reliable enough that it cannot be sidestepped.

##Top lane

Top lane is for durable and slow champs, like Maokai, Kled or Darius. These are also not the champs you want to be up close and personal with and it stands to reason that the use of Kayle's AAs isn't going to be a good time in the first 6 levels. But that's the actual point.

Instead of trying to be aggressive in the early levels, try to focus on your lane presence and lane control. Kayle has tools to stave off damage done to her and retaliate in return, instead of making the first move.

This doesn't actually devalue your points but it also means that you used to be a Kayle main and now that she's changed, you have a few things to learn in order to adjust to her new kit. The very fact that you have already come up with a list of things you'd "fix" after just 10+ games, sounds rather iffy to me. Kayle's tradeoff for a permanent range increase (and then gaining true damage) is her melee range in the early game, where the enemy has a chance to slow her progress towards that point.

Maybe you're correct in few of your assumptions but that is to be determined after she's been out for a while, rather than the very first day. People just need getting used to her new kit, that's all.

Düff McWhalen3/6/2019, 6:47:51 PM1 votes

There has to be some sort of item/rune combination that allows her some more sustain or tankyiness early. What about item 3071 item 3091 as her first items? Build her like a bruiser? Then 3rd item is item 3153 or item 3124 ?

Maybe run Grasp on her along with Biscuit delivery and Minion Dematerializer? The latter would increase her minion damage and speed up her farming. Items above stack with her Q resistance shred.

Max Q for that early base damage, since her E does % damage based on MISSING HP you can afford to just use it for farming. so max Q>W>R>E

I also realize Grasp is gimped when used by a ranged champ, but she is MELEE until level 11 and needs the sustain.

Jarring3/7/2019, 1:13:57 PM1 votes

i like all of these options.. but i think the main thing kayle is missing right now is being ranged before hitting lvl 11.

atm she gets 1 ranged auto attack once for every E.. but it's just used like a targeted execute ability rather than a ranged auto attack..

i've been suggesting splitting her E into 2 charges with half the damage and cooldown.

That way she can farm safely at a distance and even get exalted in a solo lane before hitting lvl 11..

something to think about and it only requires one small change.

Season 9 Blows3/8/2019, 8:33:01 PM1 votes

As a Kayle main here are the problems. 1 her early game is just gutted and shes not useful until it is too late. 2, her ult pretty much requires you have competent teammates. Solo, it is pretty much useless especially when it has a cast time. I like the idea of her going from a melee to ranged champ, but maybe adjust it so that every level she gains range until the 550 max or whatever. That way there is an actual transition. Also get rid of that whole cannot attack thing on her ult. I like the damage it gives, but if you have to revert the damage to keep so where you can attack then do so. Or just make it to where if she ults her self, she doesnt gain the damage portion of the ult, but she can remain attacking. Kayle has pretty much always been a late game champ, but before in the early she wasnt just complexly useless. Right now it seems that way until she hits 11, which again by that time it is just too late and the game has snowballed out of control.

ScarletVixen3/17/2019, 5:55:26 AM1 votes

I honestly think Rageblade is a terrible item for Kayle since it doesn't synergize with her kit that well. Sure resistance shreds and stacking attack speed is nice and on hit damage is meh. Rageblade is great on champs with a 3 hit passive (think Neeko's W passive, Master Yi's auto attack passives ect) but Kayle isn't one of them.

Kayle needs damage. Rageblade gives almost none of that. Just 25 AD and AP. Big woop. It's a waste of 3,100 gold. I have taken to rushing Gunblade first item. Life steal is important for Kayle to survive the lane phase, and gives her more meaningful stats. Berserker greaves and then Nashors tooth combined with the alacrity precision rune (plus the +10% attack speed rune shard) end up giving her an attack speed of 2.0 by 11 which is more than enough for Kayle. Seeker's armgard is an item I take ONLY if I'm against an AD bully and need the armor. Upgrade it to Zhonya's at third item after Nashors. Otherwise third item should be Lich Bane. The spellblade works wonderfully with Kayle's E.

Speaking of... Another thing to keep in mind that Kayle's E does more damage the lower HP an enemy is, so it works as both poke but also, and this is important, a powerful execution spell. At max rank it does the standard on hit damage of it's passive, PLUS up to 20% of the enemy's missing HP as magic damage. Keeping it for when an enemy gets under 50% hp means the damage it deals is much more meaningful. (plus Lich Bane's spellblade passive and gunblade active to nuke enemy's that get really low). Especially in top lane where it's common to build lots of HP and AD, with the high resistance items like Spirit Visage for closer to mid game.

So this means Kayle's E can be a poke spell, but is much stronger against enemy's that allow their HP to get low. (minion aggro or bad trades).

Kayle's Q scales harder off of her damage stats which is why I get gunblade first since it gets a 60% scaling with AD and 50% with AP, meaning that poking out enemy's with Q then then following up with E when they get low hurts ALOT.

As far as leveling skills goes... I always max E first, so it gets more % missing HP damage, then level W for more healing and movement speed. Combined with Gunblade and then Nashors, you get great at kiting. I max W second obviously because laning phase is hard and the extra stats in that skill helps. I usually don't level Q second unless the matchup favors me since it will lower enemy's hp harder for your E damage. However leveling it doesn't change the AD and AP scaling ratio's so W max for rough matchups is a must imo so you can stay in lane and farm more before having to back.

These are the few things I've picked up playing her. I hold that Kayle IS a carry come late game, as long as you don't build Rageblade and go for high damage items that allow Kayle to capitalize on what she does best. Cuz in this case, damage is far more important than attack speed. You want more damage in your kit so they hit harder. Nashors and berserk greaves are enough attack speed with what her passive does, anything else is really unnecessary. Plus all the items I suggest scale Kayle's wave damage since they give Kayle more AD and AP which is what they scale by. 20% from AP, 10% from AD.