Talon rework

Ulti Equals mud·Dec 6, 2016·10 votes·1,107 views

Can we please change him back to the way he was or atleast change his kit a bit more, such as making his q a blink not a dash and off it can apply on hit affects cos the burst is all gone and you can't do anything it's pretty sad really

43 Comments

Derp R UsDec 6, 20167 votes

What you mean is add more damage. Changing him back to the way he was is not the right way of going about here.

Ulti Equals mudDec 6, 20162 votes

Or just making his q a blink instead of a dash

Derp R UsDec 6, 20161 votes

I don't see how that affects his burst. Maybe it can make him harder to hit with CC if you're good at timing, but mobility and damage are two different things.

AstôlfoDec 6, 20162 votes

Because he can't dodge abilities anymore.

Derp R UsDec 6, 20162 votes

Anyone can dodge skillshots, but like I said, if it's his burst that's the problem, adjusting his mobility won't do anything.

It's like telling your ADC to grab item 3140 because they aren't doing enough damage: doesn't make much sense.

Granted, a buff anywhere will increase his winrate, but if it's his lack of damage that's the problem, buffing his mobility seems kind of dumb.

AstôlfoDec 6, 20163 votes

Um, no, he can't.

If he cannot instantly jump and kill a target because of some ability, such as a skillshot which means he'd have to sidestep (EVEN IF HE GOES AT AN ANGLE) and avoid it instead of going directly forward, that fraction of a second is a MASSIVE delay to their burst.

And yes, an ADC would be logically told to get a QSS if they kept dying to CC, because dead people don't do burst.

Also, it's not his lack of damage. His damage is fine if he hits every single thing. It's just no one is enough of a fucking idiot to ever let him do that. AKA, his consistency is utter dogshit.

Derp R UsDec 6, 20161 votes

Sigh...

cos the burst is all gone

Is this the problem? Because I asked a Talon main and he said that they hit his burst hard. If that's the problem, tackling another part of his kit won't do anything. That's like Alistar not being tanky enough so you buff his AP ratios or Vladimir having too low AP ratios so you buff his crit damage or something completely irrelevant to the weak spot.

Just, make up your mind, is he too immobile or is he dealing too little damage?

Edge of DaybreakDec 6, 20161 votes

Just, make up your mind, is he too immobile or is he dealing too little damage?

IMO new talon would be fine if league was balanced around dealing delayed damage. When your opponents all burst you the way Talon burst you back in S3 then how is he going to function? Riot would basically need to fisher price the game to make the new assassins work the way they should because I feel like they would need to massively overload them like release ap ekko or they will just fall into the darkness waiting for the 2nd rework.

Derp R UsDec 7, 20161 votes

Well, Talon is in a weak spot right now, I know that. In fact, if your name isn't Kha'Zix or Rengar, the rework did more harm to you than good.

Edge of DaybreakDec 7, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Derp R Us,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lxQqIFVa,comment-id=000100000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-07T02:28:06.988+0000)

Well, Talon is in a weak spot right now, I know that. In fact, if your name isn't Kha'Zix or Rengar, the rework did more harm to you than good.

Ekko Leblanc

Ulti Equals mudDec 7, 20161 votes

They kinda harmed kha with the slow on the w

Derp R UsDec 8, 20161 votes

Perhaps, but his damage now is UUUAAGH!!!

RalanrDec 6, 20161 votes

Dude, you can dodge skill shots by walking.

AstôlfoDec 7, 20161 votes

Yes and the delay it takes to dodge it is ridiculously long when it's that critical of a moment.

RalanrDec 7, 20161 votes

... Dude. You're actually complaining how hard it is to dodge skill shots by walking.

You main Illaoi.

AstôlfoDec 7, 20161 votes

Yes and Illaoi can survive for more than half a second even if she misses them. It's not MASSIVELY critical for her to land every single skillshot to be more useful than the fucking pebbles on the map. If Talon wastes even a fraction of a second trying to dodge a skillshot he should not have to dodge because of the retarded gapcloser change, he's done.

Ulti Equals mudDec 7, 20161 votes

It's kind of a hard to explain what I mean but what I'm saying with this is if he doesn't have such burst atleast give him something ya feel

Derp R UsDec 8, 20161 votes

Well, I'm not the Talon main here. If that's what you want, then your word means more than mine now.

TheHappyReaperzDec 6, 20162 votes

Instant crits, massive bleed, more blades, damage buff to rake. All in all, it seems like his damage was increased.

AstôlfoDec 6, 20162 votes

On the other hand, you ONLY get the crit if you use Q in melee range. Which is his only gapcloser as well. Which got turned into a dash instead of a blink which means he can't dodge around abilities anymore which is retarded.

Bleed requires THREE FULL ABILITY HITS FIRST and then an autoattack, or a melee-range Q for the third (which counts as both an ability and the autoattack).

And Rake is extremely slow now.

TheHappyReaperzDec 6, 20162 votes

So the combo is Ult, Rake, Q auto. That applies the three passive stacks, procs the bleed, and lets you only have to hit the first cast of rake.

AstôlfoDec 7, 20161 votes

And then...

You try that against a competent team...

And you will never be able to get your ult off on them without burning long-range Q and probably E as well.

Cage The MachineDec 6, 20162 votes

OKay

heres how the assassin rework is okay each different assassin are good against different types of mid lane champions talon is good against melee assassins and immobile mages so if you want to beat him play a mage with cc and ask for gank because he needs a terrain to escape so if you burst him down hes like a pre lvl 6 annie without her stun kappa

Edge of DaybreakDec 6, 20161 votes

So uh just gonna correct you a bit but talon's worst matchups right now are in fact immobile mages. The only matchups he doesnt outright lose are to zed who he already won against pre nerf, fizz which isn't impressive, kassadin, and ryze oddly enough. Every other midlaner dumpsters him and most of those that dumpster him the hardest are immobile.

The assassin rework didnt really add strengths to some it just gave them huge glaring weaknesses with gimmicky strengths.

RalanrDec 6, 20161 votes

It was more so intended to make them easier to balance.

TheOvermindDec 7, 20162 votes

Basically the new talon is extremely hard to play , gotta be very observant and patient and lucky to kill your target in a fight.

Killing a target with q used as a dash is out of the question, lategame, u just miss out on a lot of dmg. And using it q in melee is extremely hard cuz u get no gapcloser.

Id like riot to make talons q the enhanced auto attack that it was before , so talon can preserve his identity of the only assassin that melts towers, and then make his e castable on champions (same animation) but increase its cooldown to like 5-6 sec when used on a champion so he doesn't get perma dash .

Now talon can gap close without sacrificing dmg, looks cooler, is still a good splitpusher, and his parkouring is still there !

Ulti Equals mudDec 7, 20161 votes

That's what I forgot, you can't auto attack on towers now aswell so he's pretty much a fried champ

JedenVojakDec 7, 20162 votes

Simple fix to Talon: Revert to pre-rework state. Put silence back on E.

Problem solved.

Ulti Equals mudDec 7, 20162 votes

Basically, they removed talons blink, slow, other slow and auto attack reset and gave him what ?! A dash and some mobility... and yes his q is an aa reset but good luck getting them both off when they can just walk away. They just need to give him something man it's just frustrating cos they ruined a beautiful champ, just like how they ruined poppy haha

Derp R UsDec 8, 20161 votes

I kind of like the new Poppy, granted, nobody seems to know how to play her, but I like her...

Ulti Equals mudDec 8, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Derp R Us,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lxQqIFVa,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2016-12-08T03:11:55.465+0000)

I kind of like the new Poppy, granted, nobody seems to know how to play her, but I like her...

Her old q could crit, 2k magic damage while only one person could attack you and her passive was insane

Derp R UsDec 8, 20161 votes

Exactly, the old Poppy wasn't even a tank.

MLDzXnRRRDec 6, 20161 votes

item 3031 is a core item, if you want to burst targets.

AstôlfoDec 6, 20162 votes

There shouldn't be specific items required to burst targets. And IE is ridiculously expensive, when assassins are all about the cheaper AD/pen items to get ahead in early because they are fucking useless if they don't do that.

DracocrashDec 6, 20162 votes

"there shouldnt be specific items required to burst targets"

Yet fizz is balanced around lich bane.

(I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying riot doesn't share your philosophy)

AstôlfoDec 6, 20162 votes

REQUIRING and being BALANCED AROUND is different.

The ONLY thing(s) an assassin should require is their stat type (AP or AD), and occasionally crit for SOME AD assassins. Not a specific item.

So Talon not being able to burst with just plain AD items like GB/DB/etc is stupid as fuck.

Cage The MachineDec 6, 20161 votes

lol i main fizz hes lanning phase is better because his w is finally an AA reset BUT his w burn if not down right is fuckign worthless but if he fed and know how to carry focus him

MLDzXnRRRDec 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

There shouldn't be specific items required to burst targets. And IE is ridiculously expensive, when assassins are all about the cheaper AD/pen items to get ahead in early because they are fucking useless if they don't do that.

IE isn't garbage compared to all the lethality - bad early and bad later vs anyone with brain who will buy armor. Your lethality goes to the garbage vs people with at least 1 tank item.

AstôlfoDec 9, 20161 votes

IE is also one of the most expensive games which is literally counterintuitive to the assassin's earlygame/midgame strength. And Lethality is complete trash.

RalanrDec 6, 20161 votes

Honestly I think his passive bleed should apply GW.

CasterGilgameshDec 6, 20161 votes

my thoughts on how to make talon better would be to

Give his Noxian Diplomacy grant a speed buff to himself when striking a champion or killing a unit
give him more damage Make his passive have a flat damage done on the auto hit instantly and a bleed as well after it
increase the the speed he jumps over walls so enemies need to hit him when he is in the process of jumping not when he is already about to land on the other side
maybe make his rake better at farming thats all the ideas i had