Boards›Gameplay

Fiora. And they say Irelia was overloaded...

Aurifex··7 votes·854 views

Hello, lowly gold II Oceania top-laner here,

I've played against a Fiora (with various champions) a fair amount since her update and the ONLY champ I've had success with in lane is Poppy (stop the dash, proceed to bash). Hence I believe (in my humble opinion) that it's quite ridiculous how many things Fiora is good at:

UNCOUNTERABLE SUSTAINED DMG: TRUE %max HP dmg on low cd. Typically does about one third of a champ's HP (as I remember from death recaps). True %max HP is already something any tank player hates (typical counter to true dmg is supposed to be building HP). This makes it so that itemising defensively does not feel rewarding or effective.

TREMENDOUS STICKING POWER (and mobility): Extremely low cd on lunge. At max rank without CD, Fiora's 'LUNGE' is 3.2 seconds upon hitting an enemy. For reference, Vayne's 'TUMBLE' and Kindred's 'DANCE OF ARROWS' (with 'WOLF'S FRENZY) both have a 2 second cd at max rank. This is without CDR, but Fiora tends to build 40% CDR while the two aforementioned ADCs build 10% at most, leaving their dashes at 1.8 seconds and Fiora's at 1.92 seconds. At lvl 1 the CD on Fiora's 'LUNGE' is 6.4 seconds (without CDR) upon hitting an enemy allowing her to win against the vast majority of top laners at lvl 1. Together with her slows and speed boosts (to be mentioned later), it becomes very difficult to disengage from Fiora (god forbid you overextend against her with your outer turret down) which is a problem because she has...

EASY HARASS IN LANE: The low CD 'LUNGE' allows her to poke and retreat freely on many melee champions. Hitting 'vital points' makes this all the more easier as it gives her a decent speed boost. Normally a counterplay method would be to engage after she pokes, but this doesn't work, as she has SUSTAINED DMG and STICKING POWER to chase, should you choose to disengage after inevitably losing an extended trade. Such trades are further discouraged by her riposte.

CAN BLOCK EVERYTHING: Riposte. While many argue that you can easily bait out this ability, THE SATISFACTION OF BAITING OUT FIORA'S 'RIPOSTE' DOES NOT EQUAL THE POTENTIAL FRUSTRATION OF HAVING CERTAIN ABILITIES/SPELLS COMPLETELY NULLIFIED. Many champs have predictable attacks which can be read easily (like Xin Zhao's third Q hit) and countered unless the opposing player is ALWAYS thinking about her 'RIPOSTE', but with all the things to manage, this can often slip out of the mind (especially in lower ELO). Also, not only does it block EVERYTHING, it also returns with a stun if hard CC was negated (although this is fairly unreliable), but if no hard CC was used, IT STILL RETURNS A MOVEMENT AND ATTACK SPEED SLOW. Thus it reduces the dmg output of AA-reliant champions regardless (if skillshot is successful).

SHE STILL HAZ CC: Despite having extreme dmg and mobility, she also has slows and situational stun. Makes it even harder to run OR chase, meaning Fiora gets to choose which fights to fight (what a cowardly duelist).

SHE ALSO HAZ SUSTAIN: Gets sustain from poking champions' vitals. This makes trader all the more difficult.

And then there is her ult. Now I'm assuming that the ult is what RIOT uses to encourage her to teamfight (coz I can't win a 1v1 against the 'Grand DUELIST'), but it makes her 1v1 dueling potential all the more oppressing, as you either have to burst her down (unlikely), run away (impossible without tower), or out-DPS the heal (okeh).

DECENT AT TOWER DIVING AND SURVIVING TOWER DIVES. Low CD dash allows Fiora to escape easily after successful tower dives. Holding onto Riposte disencourages vigilant divers and utterly thwarts careless divers.

Tanks can't tank. Kiters can't kite. Even burst champions can't freely burst.

I've beaten a few Fiora's early (like with Pantheon and Teemo) only to have the Fiora inevitably become stronger and carry mid-game. I've played strong early 1v1 laners (like Volibear and Renekton) and have been poked out and out-traded, eventually forced into tower-hugging. I've played low mobility champions (like Singed and Teemo) only to have their primary playstyle completely shut-down by Fiora's mobility (lovin' the mobility creep) I've had games where Fiora escaped easily from danger such as towers and fed Tryndamere (during his ult), because of her extremely low CD dash.

Now I just wanna run a comparison with IRELIA, who I BELIEVE (may be wrong) was said to be overloaded, leading to the BETTER NERF IRELIA stuff.

--FIORA--

  1. 1.9 cd skillshot dash (dodge/gap-closer/retreat)
  2. %maxHP true dmg on vital hit
  3. HP gain on vital hit
  4. ranged situational stun (skill-based) OR situational movement/attack speed slow
  5. minor AS steroid and guaranteed crit
  6. minor slow on hit
  7. strong but delayed conditional AOE heal
  8. movement speed boost on vital hit
  9. block everything for 0.75 seconds
  10. low many costs
  11. strong ALL throughout game

--** IRELIA**--

  1. 4.8 cd (20% CDR) targeted dash (gap-closer) reset on kill
  2. flat true dmg on hit
  3. Hp gain on hit
  4. situational stun (point and click) OR situational slow
  5. ...?
  6. ...?
  7. ranged AOE dmg with heal
  8. ...triforce proc?
  9. up to 30% CC reduction
  10. moderate mana costs
  11. strong mid-late

Overloaded?

On a side note, in ranked solo atm, according to LOLKING, Fiora is sitting at around 50% winrate for NA and Korea. Her popularity in Korea is almost double of that of her popularity in NA (~22% to ~12%). This 50% winrate seems to be similar across ALL ranks (LOLKING says 50.8% winrate as average), but for what people call a 'skill' champ, isn't her winrate quite high? (Riven: 46.4%, Rumble 47%, Renekton 48.4%; not only does Fiora sport a higher winrate than these champions, but she also has higher popularity than them as well)

I may be mistaken about some things, but I KNOW that Fiora is not fun to play against and I know that RIOT does not endorse frustration so please do something about her?

5 Comments

Baby Ghoul1 votes

If Fiora is truly the holy grail of all champions and super easy to play, why not just play her yourself? As far as champion concepts go, she has one of the more fun themes and interesting character. What's holding you back?

She's not banned nearly as much as she used to be, so it's just a case of you getting her first if you're at the top of the pick order. If she's really freelo, then I think you should take advantage of that.

I think you could better educate yourself on the balance of a champion if you played as that said champion. It helps you get a better idea of what their weaknesses are and where they excel at. It can give you another perspective.

I'm not saying Fiora doesn't need tweaks, but a lot of that was really one sided and omitted a lot.

Aurifex3 votes

It's true that what I wrote omitted quite a lot; it's hard to organise these thoughts for me and I lost sight of big idea. BUT, the thing is, I attained my gold II rank not from being a good team player, but primarily from winning lane, splitpushing and reluctantly grouping when I had to (this was probably an exaggeration, but it's how I feel). Consequently, my MMR should be based around that; my laning prowess is my strong point, not my contribution to team objectives, meaning I should almost be expected to win MOST of my lanes. And yet I've lost to Fiora so many times. Naturally this sets my teeth on edge.

As for why I don't play her: First of all, I don't own her (or have the IP for her, most of my IP goes into my everchanging rune pages), and secondly, I'm usually forced to play more tankier champions as my friends rarely pick them themselves.

I've also seen numerous gameplay discussion posts that complain about Fiora (and relished in her temporary disabled status) so I know it's quite frustrating for other players as well. Obviously I don't want RIOT to gut her, but atm i just think she's overloaded; too good at too many things, with counterplay that isn't very evident OR accessible.

WoonStruck2 votes

{quoted}

I'm not saying Fiora doesn't need tweaks, but a lot of that was really one sided and omitted a lot.

Its not really one-sided in saying that she doesn't have answers against her.

Her passive already rewards you with % hp true damage. The heal is over-kill.

Her Q basically resets for free in lane since it activates vs minions at full value.

Her W doesn't have a start-up animation before it registers for the stun counter. For the large majority of champions you can just wait for the EXTREMELY CLEAR audio/visual queue for their stuns and just mash the key. It doesn't take "skill" it takes minor awareness. Anyone that's at all competent can do this easily, effectively removing sometimes necessary power for a champion to function, such as Irelia trading with Fiora. Irelia cannot lane vs her because of the delay on her stun animation and the fact that she practically has to sit still to auto, meaning free vital procs for Fiora. Its 100% up to Fiora to lose that match-up solely due to this ability.

Her E was adjusted to a point where I think its fair enough with the recent patch.

Her ult already has so much value with 4 instant-proc vitals (that still heal you) that the heal 'reward' is just unnecessary power that allows her to get away with even dumber stuff than she's capable of already.

The absurd amount of utilities her kit has on top of uncounterable damage is retarded.

You winning against a Fiora is in the hands of the Fiora, not you. You will not win unless she fucks up HARD. The good thing is that most people do make constant mistakes by going over-aggressive all the time. But that doesn't make her any more bearable.

Narasimha1 votes

She has many problems. These.. aren't really it.

UNCOUNTERABLE SUSTAINED DMG: TRUE %max HP dmg on low cd. Typically does about one third of a champ's HP (as I remember from death recaps). True %max HP is already something any tank player hates (typical counter to true dmg is supposed to be building HP). This makes it so that itemising defensively does not feel rewarding or effective.

  1. It's very counterable. You can see the vitals. You know she has to hit the vitals to get her damage. You can plan for her actions. Play smart, not hard.
  2. %max true damage actually LIMITS her overall damage. It stops her from deleting squishies like an assassin. She's meant to be a melee carry effective against tanks and carries alike. %max true is actually one of the better ways to tune her for this.

TREMENDOUS STICKING POWER (and mobility): Extremely low cd on lunge. At max rank without CD, Fiora's 'LUNGE' is 3.2 seconds upon hitting an enemy. For reference, Vayne's 'TUMBLE' and Kindred's 'DANCE OF ARROWS' (with 'WOLF'S FRENZY) both have a 2 second cd at max rank. This is without CDR, but Fiora tends to build 40% CDR while the two aforementioned ADCs build 10% at most, leaving their dashes at 1.8 seconds and Fiora's at 1.92 seconds. At lvl 1 the CD on Fiora's 'LUNGE' is 6.4 seconds (without CDR) upon hitting an enemy allowing her to win against the vast majority of top laners at lvl 1. Together with her slows and speed boosts (to be mentioned later), it becomes very difficult to disengage from Fiora (god forbid you overextend against her with your outer turret down) which is a problem because she has...

She's also melee, wheres both the example you listed are ranged. Melees tend to be given higher strengths to compensate for that fact. She has to be sticky because she literally has no other way to do damage.

EASY HARASS IN LANE: The low CD 'LUNGE' allows her to poke and retreat freely on many melee champions. Hitting 'vital points' makes this all the more easier as it gives her a decent speed boost. Normally a counterplay method would be to engage after she pokes, but this doesn't work, as she has SUSTAINED DMG and STICKING POWER to chase, should you choose to disengage after inevitably losing an extended trade. Such trades are further discouraged by her riposte.

Honestly, this sounds more like this is you. If you're letting her hit and run, you're doing it wrong. Like I said before, you know which vital she's going for. And if she's not hitting a vital, her damage is a joke. So play around that. Expect her engage, and retaliate. Hell, if you think Fiora has easy harass, what are you going to do against Jayce, Gnar, or even Cho?

CAN BLOCK EVERYTHING: Riposte. While many argue that you can easily bait out this ability, THE SATISFACTION OF BAITING OUT FIORA'S 'RIPOSTE' DOES NOT EQUAL THE POTENTIAL FRUSTRATION OF HAVING CERTAIN ABILITIES/SPELLS COMPLETELY NULLIFIED. Many champs have predictable attacks which can be read easily (like Xin Zhao's third Q hit) and countered unless the opposing player is ALWAYS thinking about her 'RIPOSTE', but with all the things to manage, this can often slip out of the mind (especially in lower ELO). Also, not only does it block EVERYTHING, it also returns with a stun if hard CC was negated (although this is fairly unreliable), but if no hard CC was used, IT STILL RETURNS A MOVEMENT AND ATTACK SPEED SLOW. Thus it reduces the dmg output of AA-reliant champions regardless (if skillshot is successful).

ALL melee carries have a form of strong defense. Why? Because they need it. They're melee champions who don't burst (in the traditional sense anyway). They need to be able to survive extended battles. Jax can dodge all autos and has a solid armor + MR boost. Yi gains slow immunity, invulnerability, a heal, and damage reduction. Trynd has a heal and the ability to cheat death. And so Fiora gets her heal, and the ability to block anything for an extremely short duration.

Anyway, this is getting quite long, so I'll conclude here. The Irelia analysis actually isn't bad, but they're both basically reaching the same point from different sides. Fiora is a carry who goes bruiser to survive, while Irelia is a bruiser who gets damage to stay relevant.

Aurifex2 votes

I'd disagree.

It's very counterable. You can see the vitals.

I believe there is not much counterplay for vitals; whether vitals are hit or not depend on the Fiora player due to the mobility she has with her lunge. Especially for low mobility champions, their only option to avoid getting their vitals hit (or juke the lunge) is by using flash, which is on a much higher cd.

It stops her from deleting squishies like an assassin.

Fioras that get even slightly ahead become able to burst squishies AND tanks alike, but while squishies building become a threat to Fiora due to their burst, tanks often get outbursted in trades (also outdamaged in extended trades) and also can't disengage, so they have extremely limited options in lane (optimal actions to take would probably be roaming or asking for ganks).

She's also melee, wheres both the example you listed are ranged.

I used Vayne and Kindred as examples because they had the lowest cd dashes in the game. If I were to use other melee champions as examples, you would find that most of their dashes would be around 6 seconds, decreased to 3.6 seconds with 40% CDR. This would just serve to accentuate my point that her mobility is ridiculously high for all the other tools she has. The fact that her dash is on par with these ADCs that rely on kiting indicates that many other kite-reliant champions have no way to out-manoeuvre Fiora (other than team coordination, which is only most active during the early stages of full teamfights)

If you're letting her hit and run, you're doing it wrong. Like I said before, you know which vital she's going for.

Yes, we know where vitals are, but then as I've explained she wins out in trades against the vast majority of champions, meaning it would be disadvantageous to trade back or engage. This means that the vitals allow her to effectively zone champions in lane when the vitals face her (this is further exacerbated for late-game champions with weak laning phases).

Hell, if you think Fiora has easy harass, what are you going to do against Jayce, Gnar, or even Cho?

These ranged champions have much less sustained damage or durability, meaning that champions that engage and get past their disengagement abilities (jayce knockback, gnar hop) can reliably take them down. Also, in lategame teamfights, their contributions (as ranged [excluding Mega Gnar]) are limited, forced to poke until it's safe to engage and clean-up. But Fiora's clean-up is phenomenal (due to her chase potential) and she also has tools that allow her to somewhat survive while going hard in teamfights (riposte and ult heal). Cho is completely different (I'm assuming the Cho you're thinking of maxes his silence, as his knockup is quite dodgable without mobility, and attack speed builds aren't the norm); His silence has a high mana cost (70 mana at rank 1, 270 base mana on cho) and long-ish CD (13 seconds without CDR) and his main source of mana regen is from his passive (and maybe dorans ring) which can be prevented by harassing and zoning him back. This is possible because of his cooldowns, low mobility and low sustained dmg without his abilities.

ALL melee carries have a form of strong defense.

Yes, melee carried have strong defense. That's not the problem I have with Fiora. It's how she has strong defense options ON TOP of all the other tools she has available. She is overloaded (in my opinion). AND frustrating.

Thanks for the response.

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes