Mordekaiser Overtuned?

gecko princess·Dec 1, 2019·7 votes·5,965 views

I was in a game as Irelia, I was 4/2, had over 50 farms more than an opposing Mordekaiser that was 0/3. I tried to 1v1 him and died. Is he overtuned or does he just counter me?

38 Comments

R4ndom F1nnDec 1, 20199 votes

Counters you and Irelia is not the strongest of champs anyway.

RagnaveilDec 1, 20192 votes

She is decent right now, but she's weak to magic damage, the one thing Morde excels at.

Z3SIeeperDec 2, 20191 votes

Yeah you essentially lose your W in this matchup other than the damage and passive proc effect of it.

AdamrCcDec 1, 20198 votes

You can't possibly die to him as an Irelia who is ahead. As Irelia all you need to do is build a Wit's End. Literally just that.

You guys have a problem with building standard regardless of the matchup and then complain when you'll lose.

ThefrostyvikingDec 1, 20191 votes

{quoted}

You can't possibly die to him as an Irelia who is ahead. As Irelia all you need to do is build a Wit's End. Literally just that.

You guys have a problem with building standard regardless of the matchup and then complain when you'll lose.

No the issue is really Irelia as a champion vs Morde.

Irelia is stronger like from lvl 2-5 but after that once has some armor+liandries it´s impossible for her to win that fight anymore, even if she combo´s and bursts down half his HP instantly he´ll just W to gain a shield for that HP and kill her with his passive in the meanwhile.

I´ve played that matchup on both sides, once as Morde with that exact setup i even tanked a few towershots and got down to 45% health before backing out of tower range and letting the minions reset against a Irelia with Triforce+merc threads+ item 3052 .

She didnt attack right away as i just made her flunk a Q with my E.

By the next wave she naturally jumps on me who had been staying around until then, i instantly ult and activate my shield and proceed to kill her, only losing 20% health in the process.

Her base stats are shit, her damage without her passive is even more shit, and her ability to 1v1 without minions around or stuff to dodge is worse still.

She is absolutely amazing into ranged matchups like Kennen though.

AdamrCcDec 1, 20191 votes

The problem here is that you built a item 3052 instead of item 3091 or item 3156 .

Wit's End on any skirmisher ruins Morde's day and you can basically auto attack him to death while face tanking him.

ThefrostyvikingDec 2, 20191 votes

{quoted}

The problem here is that you built a instead of or .

Wit's End on any skirmisher ruins Morde's day and you can basically auto attack him to death while face tanking him.

....Wait are you sure you are commenting to the right person here? Because i havent played Irelia into morde for like 2 months+ if i remember correctly.

I did play Morde into irelia though, poor girl.

And as for wits end vs morde, nope it sucks, bad,If you want proof just look at any site that details the winrates for the matchup, if wits end was so good then irelia´s winrates would not be 33 to 42%. (Depending on site)

And if you want some good fun then here´s some choice advice for the matchup from the Irelia reddit.

Pray to RNGesus that he DC´s.
Beg your jungler to camp him to oblivion.
Buy a QSS and refuse to interact with him.
Pick ignite and try to cheese the daylight out of him early (this might actually work?)
Towerhug for dear life once lvl 6 is about to happen.
Hit a very, very damn good TP gank botlane and snowball, go back to lane and do everything to kill him before he gets liandries and then go to teamfight, let him split because hopefully you winning a teamfight lets you end before he gets far enough since he takes towers very slowly.

Several on the reddit discuss wits end but the consensus is the fact that post 6 the moment morde ults you and you arent close to the tower then you are basically toast because his passive and isolation Q at that point does waaaay too much fking damage even if you have MR.

If you somehow survive and dont feed he´ll eventually just get item 3151 and from then on it´s literally impossible to beat him 1v1 anymore unless you are somehow fed as damn, cannot be done no matter what otherwise, here the QSS advice came up.

Icing on the cake is that his next item he gets is item 3116 which makes things even worse, because at this point you cant dodge his Q or E anymore, and it nearly doubles Liandries´s power while also feeding the rest of his kit with AP which significantly boosts his damage.

At the present the Irelia subbreddit considers Mordekaiser to be one of the absolutely worst matchups there is, along with Kled, Garen,Ornn and Fiora if i am not mistaken.

86400Dec 1, 20195 votes

He's fine.

Anime FizzDec 1, 20194 votes

Morde is broken right now.

TheFailingMonkeyDec 1, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Anime Fizz,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kuByVxQ8,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-12-01T20:07:20.391+0000)

Morde is broken right now.

Preach, Morde's items are cheaper they deal more damage, his "skillshots" are easier and little unknown fact about morde's ult (HE STEALS 10% of ALL YOUR STATS(INCLUDING HEALTH)) He ONLY weakness is has cooldown reduction on his items cause none of the items he uses are good for CDR whatsoever.

Summoner SpeIIDec 1, 20193 votes

irelia is a garbage champion for 1v1's, she is so understated that she straight up loses almost all 1v1 top match ups at equal skill match ups. If u want a real champion play garen with conqueror, he can spin to win and beat morde in his ult just straight up spinning.

86400Dec 1, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Summoner SpeII,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kuByVxQ8,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-12-01T19:17:42.337+0000)

irelia is a garbage champion for 1v1's, she is so understated that she straight up loses almost all 1v1 top match ups at equal skill match ups. If u want a real champion play garen with conqueror, he can spin to win and beat morde in his ult just straight up spinning.

Ryze can make him look helpless too.

Crescent DuskDec 1, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Summoner SpeII,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kuByVxQ8,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-12-01T19:17:42.337+0000)

irelia is a garbage champion for 1v1's, she is so understated that she straight up loses almost all 1v1 top match ups at equal skill match ups. If u want a real champion play garen with conqueror, he can spin to win and beat morde in his ult just straight up spinning.

No he doesn't lol. Morde is strong in this particular patch because the new conqueror gives 15% lifedrain and Morde stacks conqueror insanely fast with his passive and said passive triggers that conqueror lifedrain.

Against Morde you want to bring mobile burst champs like Renekton who can chunk him multiple times and get out and finish him in a second or third engagement. Bonus point for Renekton since his empowered W shatters Mordekaiser's shield.

Kled is another conq abuser who goes well into Mordekaiser. Fiora too if she can dodge his isolation Q's.

Irelia is a real champ, she just loses into most top lane match ups by design because you can't have a champ who outsustains immobile juggernauts while being a massively mobile backline diving machine like Irelia. It's like complaining Fiora or Riven are squishy compared to Garen and Darius, no shit, they have mobility tools to dive a backline.

ACriticalThinkerDec 2, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Summoner SpeII,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kuByVxQ8,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-12-01T19:17:42.337+0000)

irelia is a garbage champion for 1v1's, she is so understated that she straight up loses almost all 1v1 top match ups at equal skill match ups. If u want a real champion play garen with conqueror, he can spin to win and beat morde in his ult just straight up spinning.

lul no... I love the Morde vs Garen match up... for a reason... long as you play early safe Morde wins the lane pretty hard... I worry more about Irelia than I do garen... I hope for garen match ups when I play Morde cuz its a free lane. Garen ult doesnt matter if he can never get the Iron Revenant to the health threshold... and like garen, Morde is also a jugg but his full charge w shield can more than easily deal with that pesky execute. (Least in gold)

Summoner SpeIIDec 2, 20191 votes

{quoted}

lul no... I love the Morde vs Garen match up... for a reason... long as you play early safe Morde wins the lane pretty hard... I worry more about Irelia than I do garen... I hope for garen match ups when I play Morde cuz its a free lane. Garen ult doesnt matter if he can never get the Iron Revenant to the health threshold... and like garen, Morde is also a jugg but his full charge w shield can more than easily deal with that pesky execute. (Least in gold)

as garen i take ignite, then its over when i have something along the lines of beserkers greaves, triforce, steraks gage, adaptive helm, i just take ignite and i can freely dive him while meming.

ACriticalThinkerDec 3, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Summoner SpeII,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kuByVxQ8,comment-id=000200020000,timestamp=2019-12-02T04:27:51.588+0000)

as garen i take ignite, then its over when i have something along the lines of beserkers greaves, triforce, steraks gage, adaptive helm, i just take ignite and i can freely dive him while meming.

Hmm.. if the garen plays super aggressive early or gets ganks then ye I can see it... maybe I just face bad garens... but its comes to a point where I simply have too much health with my shield so they cant cant get me to ulting range... then from there you know what happens. I get games where garen is so passive that by lvl 3 hes lost lane, no kills but at that point I realize he doesn't realize whats going on then its too late. I get games where garen is super aggro early and then I have to turtle till 6 then dominate, got games where I get camped so ye I lost lane as I was built enough to fight that shit... I've lost to a garen 1v1 lane once, or at least that I can recall. He was better than me and fucked me really hard and did what you described... He tower dove and spammed emotes and shit... otherwise garen is my favourite to lane against.

NyarlathοtepDec 1, 20193 votes

First of all, where the fuck is your wits end.

Second of all, juggernauts should in theory 1v1 with ease divers, aka fighters that have access to mobility but less durability (or dmg) overall.

ThefrostyvikingDec 1, 20192 votes

{quoted}

First of all, where the fuck is your wits end.

Second of all, juggernauts should in theory 1v1 with ease divers, aka fighters that have access to mobility but less durability (or dmg) overall.

Wits end doesnt actually accomplish anything for Irelia in that matchup, she can never 1v1 Morde unless fed as hell.

She scales way too badly to ever match him.

NyarlathοtepDec 1, 20193 votes

{quoted}

Wits end doesnt actually accomplish anything for Irelia in that matchup, she can never 1v1 Morde unless fed as hell.

She scales way too badly to ever match him.

Yeah no. Every champ that can makes great use of their aa can use wits end. This item is perfect for aa focused champs to deal with morde easily. Dmg, atk speed, sustain and lastly mr.

Also did you just say that irelia scales bad compared to morde? Omegafuckinglol.

ThefrostyvikingDec 1, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Yeah no. Every champ that can makes great use of their aa can use wits end. This item is perfect for aa focused champs to deal with morde easily. Dmg, atk speed, sustain and lastly mr.

Also did you just say that irelia scales bad compared to morde? Omegafuckinglol.

She does.

You see the issue in this particular matchup is that Irelia relies waaay too much on being able to dodge shit with Q dashes and healing off shit.

Which Morde shutsdown hard with his ult, so all she can do is all in him and auto attack him with her passive and hope it kills him, which it doesnt, ever, unless she´s fed to hell.

All he has to do to win that fight at lvl 6 is to literally walk up to her in lane, auto attack once, melee distance, ult, hit his Q and E when she tries to all in and then just auto attack with his passive up to demolish her.

Wits end? That thing that needs her to auto in melee range and sit inside Mordekaiser´s passive with Liandries rolling inside it? She melts like butter.

Doesnt help that Morde has built in magic pen either.

In teamfights? If she wants to participate in those she has to buy cleanse or he will just keep ulting her.......unfortunate part here is that Irelia doesnt really like the Cleanse item that much, so she ends up being shit against him.

You still dont believe me?

Lolalytics lists her winrate into Mordekaiser at 43%.

U.Gg at 33%.

OP.GG states that he spanks her in every single aspect aside from first tower kill times where she is 2 seconds faster than him, presumably because of his low attackspeed and lack of damage on them until he gets a lot of AP.

NyarlathοtepDec 1, 2019

You see the issue in this particular matchup is that Irelia relies waaay too much on being able to dodge shit with Q dashes and healing off shit.

If she is behind. On equal footing she can just fine( lvl 6 ofc) face tank him and win him vs him (she still has 3 q and with those q she can easily avoid morde's q and e essentially heavily reducing his dmg)

All he has to do to win that fight at lvl 6 is to literally walk up to her in lane, auto attack once, melee distance, ult, hit his Q and E when she tries to all in and then just auto attack with his passive up to demolish her.

COOL. Too bad he cant do it because the moment morde uses his e, irelia can just q on him (this will put her behind morde). The same applies when morde attempts to q her. And she has her e and r to mark him.

Wits end? That thing that needs her to auto in melee range and sit inside Mordekaiser´s passive with Liandries rolling inside it? She melts like butter.

No shit? She is melee. Also liandrys wont melt her (unless its late) because wits end provides 50 mr.

Doesnt help that Morde has built in magic pen either.

HO BOI Im pretty sure that 5% (at early ofc) is going to make a world's difference. Even at later stages its only 15%.

In teamfights? If she wants to participate in those she has to buy cleanse or he will just keep ulting her.......unfortunate part here is that Irelia doesnt really like the Cleanse item that much, so she ends up being shit against him.

She can buy scimitar. Its not like she cant make use of the item. Dmg? Check. Mr? Check. Movement speed on activate? Check. Lifesteal? Check.

U.Gg at 33%.

At u.gg its 42%. But even then its kinda in vain considering the state that irelia is currently at being objectively speaking weak.

ThefrostyvikingDec 2, 20191 votes

{quoted}

If she is behind. On equal footing she can just fine( lvl 6 ofc) face tank him and win him vs him (she still has 3 q and with those q she can easily avoid morde's q and e essentially heavily reducing his dmg)

What the heck are you smoking? She cant facetank shit that´s why she has to dodge you know?

And the massive issue with the matchup is Morde´s ult making it impossible to Q anything but him which makes it very, very easy for him to land his shots on Irelia.

Because either she uses Q on him and does damage or she doesnt and deals no damage while he activates his passive and now does more damage than she does.

COOL. Too bad he cant do it because the moment morde uses his e, irelia can just q on him (this will put her behind morde). The same applies when morde attempts to q her. And she has her e and r to mark him.

Unfortunately all her damage is loaded into her Q and passive so she has to start her passive and use Q´s or morde will just trade auto attacks to start his passive and win the fight, but if she uses those then he can freely Q or E and then he wins anyway.

No shit? She is melee. Also liandrys wont melt her (unless its late) because wits end provides 50 mr.

It does, had you ever played the matchup you´d know.

Lets look at a video :

https://youtu.be/YdPgJpJQGDM?t=753

Here Irelia wins early, rushes a item 1057 = 40 MR and then goes to build trifoce to gain damage.

But what happens when she tries to fight him? She initially wins hard between her MR and powerlead but then unfortunately Mordekaiser manages to activate his passive+conqueror and suddenly a healthlead of 60%+activated passive on her side does not matter.

Sure she does miss 1 E.......but considering Morde also missed his E, did not get isolation damage from 2 Q´s and did most of his damage with his passive+auto attacks i´d say it´s pretty clear whom the matchup favors.

HO BOI Im pretty sure that 5% (at early ofc) is going to make a world's difference. Even at later stages its only 15%.

Important part is that he doesnt pay squat for it, Irelia invests in magic resist and he just gets damage and HP which outscales her, it´s how the game generally works.

Damage scales better than defence for the most part.

Heck i even played this matchup not too long ago, i was passive early due to jungle attention then when i got liandry´s i literally walked in under her tower (she had triforce+merc threads) and i tanked 2 shots and went down to like 50% health with previous damage, i did this because i knew her Q was on CD and she could not engage while i was still in tower range.

Come the next wave when she was ready she instantly engages on me, i ult straightaway, drop the E on myself so she cant dodge it when she Q´s and then i Q her while she is being dragged and she just dies seconds later to my passive+auto attacks.

She can buy scimitar. Its not like she cant make use of the item. Dmg? Check. Mr? Check. Movement speed on activate? Check. Lifesteal? Check.

Still not good on her though because she´s balanced around getting triforce+hydra/sterak early due to proplay.

At u.gg its 42%. But even then its kinda in vain considering the state that irelia is currently at being objectively speaking weak.

.....Ops, had it set to masters+ Elo there.

And what the hell man.

You cant just be like " LOL she wins ez if she gets wits end" then be like "yeah but she´s weak though so actually she doesnt".

Go look at Irelia´s reddit page, the general consensus for the matchup is that it is one of the worst one´s possible for her, advice for it includes but is not limited to :

Praying
Getting QSS and refusing to interact with him the entire game, even if this means being useless later because you´ll be permanently zoned off farm but he wont be fed which gives your team a chance to deal with him.
Beg your jungler for a early camping session so that you get ahead to the point where he cannot recover on his own.
Grab ignite and cheese the Kaiser out of him early to the point where he cant come back while praying to RNGesus his jungler wont tear you a new one while playing so aggro.
Play

One guy suggests the matchup can be survived as long as you properly kill him once or twice early and rush wits end, it will give you significant breathing room until he gets his item 3151 item 3116 at which point you should have gotten a item 3078 , then you should really consider grabbing item 3140 and then it´s still easy.

A Mordekaiser main who saw that comment stated that he disagreed though, as long as Morde gets to lvl 11 and gets his items then he can just roll over Irelia no matter what, to which several other people in the thread agreed, senior Irelia mains included.

The wits end guy then stated that QSS and splitpushing was the way to go but his explanation for how to beat morde after cleansing the ult was very luck and RNG based, and he seemed to ignore the item 3116 entirely stating that all you had to do to beat Morde was walk around him and dodge his Q´s.

That and he really did not explain how the heck he´d afford wits end+merc threads+trifoce+the cleanse and continue his snowball before Mordekaiser starts killing him after getting his much cheaper core items by just farming.

NyarlathοtepDec 2, 2019

What the heck are you smoking? She cant facetank shit that´s why she has to dodge you know?

OKe that was my fault. I phrased it wrong. What i wanted to say is that she can facetank his aa and his passive (until his ulti fades).

And the massive issue with the matchup is Morde´s ult making it impossible to Q anything but him which makes it very, very easy for him to land his shots on Irelia.

How so? Morde uses his e to catch an irelia. Irelia simply uses q on him and dodges it. Then morde tries to q her, but irelia uses q on him and dodges it too because it repositions her behind the target. By the time he has activated his passive, his ulti will have already expired.

Because either she uses Q on him and does damage or she doesnt and deals no damage while he activates his passive and now does more damage than she does.

Unless you are fed, i dont think as irelia you want to try to take on a morde on his ulti. Your objective at that point is to survive. As such, aa until he uses his spells and which point you use yours to dodge his kit. Thus forcing him to aa you which will take a considerable more time than using his spells. After that long you simply wait 1 or 2 seconds for his ulti and there you go, you are free.

Unfortunately all her damage is loaded into her Q and passive so she has to start her passive and use Q´s or morde will just trade auto attacks to start his passive and win the fight, but if she uses those then he can freely Q or E and then he wins anyway.

Yes which she always has 1 or 2 stacks ready. And like i said above, you dont have to kill morde in his ulti. Just endure him and run away later. And as i stated earlier you can easily dodge his kit.

It does, had you ever played the matchup you´d know.

Lets look at a video :

Kid ofc i have played the match up. Its difficult to land your shit when he can just q on top of you and dodge your skillshots.

As for the video, im not seeing any melting as you say. What i do see however is an irelia taking 3 isolated q (out of his 4 q). Also him missing his e isnt as important as irelia missing her e. Morde's e deals close to no dmg and only exists for the cc and his passive. Irelia's on the other hand is for the cc, her passive and her mark which is far more important. Had irelia not missed her e she would have won that trade ez pz.

Important part is that he doesnt pay squat for it, Irelia invests in magic resist and he just gets damage and HP which outscales her, it´s how the game generally works. Damage scales better than defence for the most part.

Lol nop. Or at least not for defence and offense items for the most part. Damage outscales PURE defence. Wits end (and scimitar) provide both offensive stats. Also its not like irelia will keep buying mr for morde to outscale her. She buys wits end, trinity and steraks. After that she can go whatever she needs. Morde CANT outscale her. Irelia has far better late thanks to her strong teamfighting. Morde can abduct one (hoping they cant get out of his realm) and then get cc to death.

Heck i even played this matchup not too long ago, i was passive early due to jungle attention then when i got liandry´s i literally walked in under her tower (she had triforce+merc threads) and i tanked 2 shots and went down to like 50% health with previous damage,

Yeah im not buying that. That sounds extremely sketchy to be true.

Come the next wave when she was ready she instantly engages on me, i ult straightaway, drop the E on myself so she cant dodge it

Em, why did she go on offense? Thats just a scenario of an irelia making a bad call. Engaging when you have no reason to do.

Still not good on her though because she´s balanced around getting triforce+hydra/sterak early due to proplay.

We are talking about late game tho. Qss is for early, scimitar for late.

....Ops, had it set to masters+ Elo there.

Oops we arent masters. We shouldnt balance for the top players. Likewise we shouldnt balance for the bot players. We, or rather riot, should balance around the middle. At plat (+) she has 43% vs morde.

You cant just be like " LOL she wins ez if she gets wits end" then be like "yeah but she´s weak though so actually she doesnt"

By winning i didnt mean kill him. Rather endure him. She wins when she reaches late game.

Praying Getting QSS and refusing to interact with him the entire game, even if this means being useless later because you´ll be permanently zoned off farm but he wont be fed which gives your team a chance to deal with him. Beg your jungler for a early camping session so that you get ahead to the point where he cannot recover on his own.

Sounds like a general top lane experience.

Get real she isnt the one that has to deal with a difficult match up. Wanna hear a difficult match up for the so called "overtuned" morde? Trynda, jax, fiora, vayne, olaf, mundo, nocturne. A lot of them can also make great use of wits end.

One guy suggests the matchup can be survived as long as you properly kill him once or twice early and rush wits end, it will give you significant breathing room until he gets his at which point you should have gotten a , then you should really consider grabbing and then it´s still easy.

Em at that point i think you dont even have to face him. You can just group up (if you arent very behind) and offer much more than morde.

ThefrostyvikingDec 2, 20191 votes

{quoted}

OKe that was my fault. I phrased it wrong. What i wanted to say is that she can facetank his aa and his passive (until his ulti fades).

Which is why he should just walk up to her in the minions and auto once first before ulting, at this point running away is not really possible, and if she backs off then just permanently zone her of the minions like that.

How so? Morde uses his e to catch an irelia. Irelia simply uses q on him and dodges it. Then morde tries to q her, but irelia uses q on him and dodges it too because it repositions her behind the target. By the time he has activated his passive, his ulti will have already expired.

If Morde is close enough to irelia from the start then his E will pass through him and hit Irelia even when she is behind him.

Unless you are fed, i dont think as irelia you want to try to take on a morde on his ulti. Your objective at that point is to survive. As such, aa until he uses his spells and which point you use yours to dodge his kit. Thus forcing him to aa you which will take a considerable more time than using his spells. After that long you simply wait 1 or 2 seconds for his ulti and there you go, you are free.

The issue with your assumptions is that morde would be dumb enough to not stack at least 1 part of his passive before ulting, this is hella easy for him because Irelia has to go near to farm and he can just freeze the wave for ages if he wishes so with his W.

Yes which she always has 1 or 2 stacks ready. And like i said above, you dont have to kill morde in his ulti. Just endure him and run away later. And as i stated earlier you can easily dodge his kit.

I really disagree that it´s easy at all if the Morde is any good <.<

Kid ofc i have played the match up. Its difficult to land your shit when he can just q on top of you and dodge your skillshots.

I mean to me it sounds exactly like the Morde was going full dumbass about his engage but that´s my impression <.<

Just running up and ulting hardly ever works if the other side is determined to run away, but if they want to farm then it´s easy enough.

As for the video, im not seeing any melting as you say. What i do see however is an irelia taking 3 isolated q (out of his 4 q). Also him missing his e isnt as important as irelia missing her e. Morde's e deals close to no dmg and only exists for the cc and his passive. Irelia's on the other hand is for the cc, her passive and her mark which is far more important. Had irelia not missed her e she would have won that trade ez pz.

Incorrect at that point i am afraid.

Her Q at lvl 9 only does 85+60% AD while her E does 110, and when irelia missed her E Mordekaiser had 500 HP+his W ready to go with passive+conqueror active.

It would be closer but he´d have won that anyway as long as he used W before she stunned him.

Furthermore she actually healed to full HP after her initial engage which negated the first iso Q entirely, so morde only actually really landed 2 truly damaging Q´s on her and did most of his damage with his autos+passive.

Last Q was impossible to avoid as well, she could not stay near him so she has to run straight out but inside his ult there is nothing to Q towards so she gets hit.

And lets not forget Morde´s passive gives movespeed to make kiting less effective.

Damage scales better than defence for the most part. Lol nop. Or at least not for defence and offense items for the most part. Damage outscales PURE defence. Wits end (and scimitar) provide both offensive stats. Also its not like irelia will keep buying mr for morde to outscale her. She buys wits end, trinity and steraks. After that she can go whatever she needs. Morde CANT outscale her. Irelia has far better late thanks to her strong teamfighting. Morde can abduct one (hoping they cant get out of his realm) and then get cc to death.

Even in a teamfight proper, all morde has to do his use his E correctly to screw Irelia´s engage entirely and then she is not useful anymore.

Yeah im not buying that. That sounds extremely sketchy to be true. Em, why did she go on offense? Thats just a scenario of an irelia making a bad call. Engaging when you have no reason to do.

50% healthlead while even should be good for most x)

We are talking about late game tho. Qss is for early, scimitar for late.

And how exactly do you avoid Morde killing you when you are getting Triforce? His items are cheaper and he´ll be permanently zoning you off farm post 6.

Oops we arent masters. We shouldnt balance for the top players. Likewise we shouldnt balance for the bot players. We, or rather riot, should balance around the middle. At plat (+) she has 43% vs morde.

I understand the emotion behind this ideal but it´s crap when you delve into some logic.

Simply because the strength of a champion in masters+ does not just reflect on the people up there, it reflects on the mains as well, so if a champion up there is absurdly strong then the mains post some amount of games&stream watching will be as well.

That´s part of why champions like Azir, Zac, kalista and even Taliyah ate a ton of nerfs.

A main hitting 70% winrate just because they learned their champ well enough is not acceptable, not given there are others with far inferior winrates despite the same experience and knowledge.

By winning i didnt mean kill him. Rather endure him. She wins when she reaches late game.

Irelia falls off hard in the real lategame, her best points where she can hard carry i´d say are about 3-4 items if she´s ahead, Morde meanwhile just does not ever fall off unless the entire enemy team grabs QSS&anti healing and he is the only frontliner on his team.

Getting QSS and refusing to interact with him the entire game, even if this means being useless later because you´ll be permanently zoned off farm but he wont be fed which gives your team a chance to deal with him. Beg your jungler for a early camping session so that you get ahead to the point where he cannot recover on his own.

Sounds like a general top lane experience.

On this at least we agree, it truly is.

Get real she isnt the one that has to deal with a difficult match up. Wanna hear a difficult match up for the so called "overtuned" morde? Trynda, jax, fiora, vayne, olaf, mundo, nocturne. A lot of them can also make great use of wits end.

So in plati+

Morde has the following winrates into following matchups :

Tryndamere 51,5% Jax 48.4% Fiora 49.7% Vayne 49.6% Olaf 52.3%. DrMundo 54% Nocturne 51%

So at your favored plat level he basically goes even or even with or wins most of these matchups? How was he weak again? The only one who clearly wins is Jax and presumably so because he can engage on Morde and pop his E to deny Morde getting any passive stacks.

But if we look at masters elo for the same champs.

Tryndamere 82%. Jax 47.7%. Fiora 60% Vayne 50%. Olaf 40% DrMundo (is not played at all?) Nocturne 50%.

Yeaaaaah.

Your idea of bad matchups doesnt seem quite right? Because no matter how you look at it he basically doesnt seem to have any really bad matchups at plati elo while his worst at masters are mostly casters like Cassio/heimer, high damage like Riven/akali/Yasuo or Juggernauts like Garen/kled/urgot.

The only one you really nailed up there is Olaf who wins more than most except Riven and a couple of others.

Do you see why Riot has to balance around mains too now? :P If plati elo was used as a benchmark then Morde with his lack of real counters would be considered a hotfix worthy target.

Oh and for reference, his winrate against Irelia goes between 57% to 65% rising with elo.

Em at that point i think you dont even have to face him. You can just group up (if you arent very behind) and offer much more than morde.

Then lategame hits and suddenly the enemy Caitlyn does 1500 per headshot on Irelia, she dies almost instantly while Mordekaiser can build item 3143 and not really lose out on killing potential or damage for it unlike Irelia, heck since it´s a potent slow it might even help those at times.

Or Morde goes to splitpush and with his corebuild done and some armor can now towerdive Irelia as long as he manages to get close enough first and get or or two passive stacks first.

And that reminds me, he probably screws Tryndamere so hard because his E lets him peel Trynda and he can build Zhonya to waste the trynd ult.

NyarlathοtepDec 2, 20191 votes

Which is why he should just walk up to her in the minions and auto once first before ulting, at this point running away is not really possible, and if she backs off then just permanently zone her of the minions like that.

In theory yes. In practise, not so much. Ive played my fair share of champs with strong laning phase while my enemy has a bit tad weaker. What you say just doesnt work in practise (with some extremely rare cases where you cant avoid someone's dmg like a garen that faces vayne).

If Morde is close enough to irelia from the start then his E will pass through him and hit Irelia even when she is behind him.

Thats true, but if she isnt, you cant do that. And when you face morde (or any other juggernaut) chances are that you keep a fair distance.

The issue with your assumptions is that morde would be dumb enough to not stack at least 1 part of his passive before ulting

The issue with this is that your assumption relies that irelia will be close enough when he has 1 stack. What if he gains 1 stack with his q and irelia backs off as to avoid him from all ining? And before you mention permazone, i already stated that in practise its not always true.

I really disagree that it´s easy at all if the Morde is any good

How so? Both of them are in melee. Morde casts q to dmg irelia. Irelia casts q to dodge his q. What could morde do? Cast q to where irelia would land? Because in that case irelia wont even cast q since she can see where his q will go. Sure in practise its a bit more tricky but thats just the truth. And this is not exclusive to morde. Aatrox faces the same problem. He goes for his 3rd q and irelia can just avoid it by simply going behind him with her q.

Incorrect at that point i am afraid.

BVHGNMI{ oke im usually to lazy to do calculations but i guess i will make an exception this time.

(based on your numbers)

85+60%=176 multiplied by 2 because of the mark = 352 E would deal 110 and her w would deal at least 86 dmg. For a grant total 352+110+86=548.

Ofc these numbers are without runes, any autoattacks and lastly no resistances.

By the way as i was looking this clip, em where the fuck is irelia's sheen? Im almost 100% sure that its a must buy. It adds a very good amount of dmg on the q which she mainly revolves around. And, em, why in her runes she has bloodline and last stand? Bloodline is a bad rune for irelia because she deals mixed dmg. And last stand just doesnt mend with her very well, or at least not as good as coup does.

Anyway enough questioning.

Morde at lvl 9 has 57 armour and 40 mr. Which means that he would take 37% reduced physical and 29% reduced magical dmg. As such he would take 222+55=277 physical and 78 magic dmg for a grand total of 277+78=355.

The moment she is being sent to the realm and misses her e, she also unleashes an aa and tiamat (question AGAIN, why tiamat so early? Irelia has strong waveclear. I mean going for 3 items all together [hydra, trinity, wits end] means that you end up falling behind in important powerspikes). Her aa would deal 152 physical + 51 magic dmg reduced to 96 physical and 37 magic dmg after resistances. Tiamat would deal an additional number equal to 60%-100% ad aka 152 which is reduced to 96 after armour. That increase the grand total to 355+96+96+37=584.

As for conq, screw it. The increase in dmg shouldnt be that big (Although it could mean a difference in life or death).

So would irelia survive? Dunno. The scenario is difficult to imagine considering irelia would heal 2 times from her q + plus bloodline+ conq. Or at least this irelia since she doesnt have sheen.

Furthermore she actually healed to full HP after her initial engage which negated the first iso Q entirely, so morde only actually really landed 2 truly damaging Q´s on her and did most of his damage with his autos+passive.

Thats irrelevant. If the iso q didnt matter then she would have more hp and she would have survived the last q she took. Most of the dmg came from iso q. Im 100% sure. Its a shame i cant prove it though.

And how exactly do you avoid Morde killing you when you are getting Triforce?

Rushing qss and getting all minions under turret. Irelia has no problem farming under turret. You will lose cs when they arent under turret but you make them up by farming all minions under turret. There arent a lot of champs capable of that.

Simply because the strength of a champion in masters+ does not just reflect on the people up there, it reflects on the mains as well, so if a champion up there is absurdly strong then the mains post some amount of games&stream watching will be as well.

Em proof?

That´s part of why champions like Azir, Zac, kalista and even Taliyah ate a ton of nerfs.

Not quite right. There is also proplay. These champs are very strong when there is good communication. The reason they ate lots of nerfs is because pro players had them pick or ban (or something like that). Some of them where indeed strong even in soloq but they were the extreme minority.

Irelia falls off hard in the real lategame, her best points where she can hard carry i´d say are about 3-4 items if she´s ahead, Morde meanwhile just does not ever fall off unless the entire enemy team grabs QSS&anti healing and he is the only frontliner on his team.

Yeah no.

https://www.op.gg/champion/irelia/statistics/top

Although extremely small irelia peaks at 40+ (not really a dependable number but that means that she shines at late),

https://www.op.gg/champion/mordekaiser/statistics/top

Whereas morde falls from 52% to 50% (yeah still not below 50% but my point is that morde losses winrate as the game goes on while irelia goes up).

Lolalytics has a similar diagram. And like i said in my previous post, irelia has such a low winrate even late game because she is objectively speaking weak.

Morde has the following winrates into following matchups :

Honestly speaking, i took his winrates from both plat+ master+ and diamond+. Mostly because some of them are kinda bizzare. Ive played trynda vs morde and it was hilariously easy. I rushed wits end and i just saw him drop like a fly. Jax plays rather similar to trynda. Gap close and aa the enemy to death while the rest of my kit enforces that. Fiora just makes it impossible for him to ever ulti her and he cant even bait her w.

Vayne is an interesting one. Morde has to walk up to her to catch her but she has extremely strong kiting capabilities. His 7% movement speed doesnt help that much. Also without ulti morde simply dies to a vayne because of her dmg (true specifically), her passive and the fact that her ulti has less cd than morde's. Yet somehow she isnt as strong vs him in plat+. However at diamond+ she is his number 1 counter? Like wtf is this shit? Diamond+ morde have trouble facing her but plat+ dont?

Vs olaf at plat+ its a pretty even lane but as you see at diamond+ it changes drastically. And it partially makes sense? Olaf can reliably poke him albeit at a high mana cost and morde is very weak (for a champ with sustain) vs poke. He can also reliable trade with him thanks to his strong dueling nature plus true dmg. And his ulti essentially breaks his ulti and deals more dmg. Mundo is generally strong vs magic dmg thanks to his e. Also mundo can easily outlast most enemies thanks to his strong sustain and high dmg. Also, morde has 49% winrate vs mundo not 54%

As for noc. Well i guess his spellshield helps vs morde but other than that i know jack shit nothing.

Because no matter how you look at it he basically doesnt seem to have any really bad matchups at plati elo

https://u.gg/lol/champions/mordekaiser/matchups

Check plat+ and plat.

while his worst at masters are mostly casters like Cassio/heimer, high damage like Riven/akali/Yasuo or Juggernauts like Garen/kled/urgot.

You forget something very important. Sample size. After plat, the samples get very smaller. For example master, morde has 60% winrate vs ornn. Which is weird considering ornn has much stronger late game. All he has to do is play safe and eventually outscale him.

Do you see why Riot has to balance around mains too now? :P If plati elo was used as a benchmark then Morde with his lack of real counters would be considered a hotfix worthy target.

I think its even more complicated. I mean morde became like that because riot gave him strong incombat sustain with conq. He pays in combat sustain for having a 30% of max hp as a shield once in a while. Right now riot gave him 15% heal on dmg on top of having that big ass shield.

Then lategame hits and suddenly the enemy does 1500 per headshot on Irelia, she dies almost instantly while can build and not really lose out on killing potential or damage for it unlike Irelia, heck since it´s a potent slow it might even help those at times.

Irelia can just fine buy omen too. https://u.gg/lol/champions/irelia/build

Also morde is adviced to buy omen because unlike irelia he has to walk to his targets, while irelia can dash to them, minimizing the amount of dmg she will take before reachin her target.

Or Morde goes to splitpush and with his corebuild done and some armor can now towerdive Irelia as long as he manages to get close enough first and get or or two passive stacks first.

Ok cool. Irelia should you know, at that point simply group up with her team not to 1v1, even under turret, a morde that is ahead.

And that reminds me, he probably screws Tryndamere so hard because his E lets him peel Trynda and he can build Zhonya to waste the trynd ult.

Morde's e has a significantly more cd than trynda's e. However you could be very well be true about zhonya. But i dont think any sane morde would try to 1v1 a strong duelist in the first place.

ThefrostyvikingDec 2, 20191 votes

{quoted}

In theory yes. In practise, not so much. Ive played my fair share of champs with strong laning phase while my enemy has a bit tad weaker. What you say just doesnt work in practise (with some extremely rare cases where you cant avoid someone's dmg like a garen that faces vayne).

Present a logical reason why it does not?

Morde is waaay beefier than Irelia, he can easily afford to walk up to her in the middle of her casters (post lvl 6 and ideally a haunting guise+cloth armor) and then just start attacking+ult if she doesnt run.

His ult removes minion interference so he wont have to worry about his position at all aside from gapclosing in the first place.

Thats true, but if she isnt, you cant do that. And when you face morde (or any other juggernaut) chances are that you keep a fair distance.

This is true though, but the unfortunate part here is that post 6 you have to do so religiously because you kinda just die otherwise, so if he just sits in the middle of the minions and prevents Irelia from farming he´ll gain gold for his cheaper items while Irelia is sitting there and wondering what she can do.

The issue with this is that your assumption relies that irelia will be close enough when he has 1 stack. What if he gains 1 stack with his q and irelia backs off as to avoid him from all ining? And before you mention permazone, i already stated that in practise its not always true.

When i was playing Morde i didnt even bother to Q initially, i just ran straight into her face and auto attacked her before ulting and starting my E then using Q while it was dragging her.

How so? Both of them are in melee. Morde casts q to dmg irelia. Irelia casts q to dodge his q. What could morde do? Cast q to where irelia would land? Because in that case irelia wont even cast q since she can see where his q will go. Sure in practise its a bit more tricky but thats just the truth. And this is not exclusive to morde. Aatrox faces the same problem. He goes for his 3rd q and irelia can just avoid it by simply going behind him with her q.

He goes into melee range, drops his E and she either flashes or becomes unable to dodge it and then while she´s getting dragged he Q´s.

BVHGNMI{ oke im usually to lazy to do calculations but i guess i will make an exception this time.

(based on your numbers)

85+60%=176 multiplied by 2 because of the mark = 352 E would deal 110 and her w would deal at least 86 dmg. For a grant total 352+110+86=548.

Ofc these numbers are without runes, any autoattacks and lastly no resistances.

By the way as i was looking this clip, em where the fuck is irelia's sheen? Im almost 100% sure that its a must buy. It adds a very good amount of dmg on the q which she mainly revolves around. And, em, why in her runes she has bloodline and last stand? Bloodline is a bad rune for irelia because she deals mixed dmg. And last stand just doesnt mend with her very well, or at least not as good as coup does.

Tiamant is considered core on her to the point where you usually want to get it before anything else, then Phage for more AD&movespeed so you can dodge stuff, the AD of both is let her auto´s and Q´s actually do some damage even when spammed quickly, also boosts healing.

Sheen is only a priority purchase if you are looking to kill stuff in a single rotation from full HP like you´d do against a Kennen or a Ryze.....after you get merc threads.

Morde at lvl 9 has 57 armour and 40 mr. Which means that he would take 37% reduced physical and 29% reduced magical dmg. As such he would take 222+55=277 physical and 78 magic dmg for a grand total of 277+78=355.

The moment she is being sent to the realm and misses her e, she also unleashes an aa and tiamat (question AGAIN, why tiamat so early? Irelia has strong waveclear. I mean going for 3 items all together [hydra, trinity, wits end] means that you end up falling behind in important powerspikes). Her aa would deal 152 physical + 51 magic dmg reduced to 96 physical and 37 magic dmg after resistances. Tiamat would deal an additional number equal to 60%-100% ad aka 152 which is reduced to 96 after armour. That increase the grand total to 355+96+96+37=584.

As for conq, screw it. The increase in dmg shouldnt be that big (Although it could mean a difference in life or death). So would irelia survive? Dunno. The scenario is difficult to imagine considering irelia would heal 2 times from her q + plus bloodline+ conq. Or at least this irelia since she doesnt have sheen.

I mean if she had Sheen instead of say phage then she have less AD, less healing, less movespeed and less health in exchange for more damage if she combo´s slower, but the less HP part i think is scary.

Thats irrelevant. If the iso q didnt matter then she would have more hp and she would have survived the last q she took. Most of the dmg came from iso q. Im 100% sure. Its a shame i cant prove it though.

Post the time Irelia healed to full and started her ill fated second engage Morde did a total of 588 damage with his 3 isolated Q´s, Irelia had 1500 max HP.

It´s huge but most damage still comes out of his passive+autos.

Rushing qss and getting all minions under turret. Irelia has no problem farming under turret.

What stops Morde from just freezing the minions by not letting her go near them? He can sit near any minion she wants and the moment she gets too close it´s a instant engage and death or being forced to recall and fall behind in CS.

Worst part? He can even de-freeze a wave by dragging out the minions with E and farming with Q, risky with jungle attention but effective in the lack of it.

Em proof?

Simple logic, a person who masters their champ will gradually be able to use the champ to their potential even if it takes time to reach that level, Masters+ players meanwhile are just there already.

Not quite right. There is also proplay......

True, but even after some of these champs stopped being an issue in pro play they were still acting like monsters in soloq which prompted further nerfs.

If i remember right then Taliyah and Aurelion are the poster examples of this with Zac and Rengar not far behind.

Yeah no ( bunch of statistics)

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/irelia/top

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/mordekaiser/top

Irelia drops like a rock post 45 minutes while Morde sharply rises after.

Lolalytics has a similar diagram......

A diagram that states that after 10 minutes Irelia´s winrate drops to 44% and only gets back to 48% while morde never goes below 52%.....and Irelia is not weak as much as she is a niche pick.

Running outa writing space here .-.

Ive played trynda vs morde and it was hilariously easy.

Was it not you who was seriously doubting my claims of how easy it was to beat Irelia with Morde when i used personal experiences? x)

Vayne is an interesting one. . However at diamond+ she is his number 1 counter? Like wtf is this shit? Diamond+ morde have trouble facing her but plat+ dont?

Which site you looking at? Lolalytics states Vayne just isnt that bad, ever, and Olaf still isnt bad then.

In Diamond+ Morde vs Mundo has Morde winning with 54% in 200 games.

As for noc. Well i guess his spellshield helps vs morde but other than that i know jack shit nothing.

Noc just has a ton of damage so he can probably kill Morde first if they fight+spellshield to help him.

https://u.gg/lol/champions/mordekaiser/matchups

Aight so he has 3 in plati+ up until Diamond where he gets more.

You forget something very important. Sample size. After plat, the samples get very smaller. For example master, morde has 60% winrate vs ornn. Which is weird considering ornn has much stronger late game. All he has to do is play safe and eventually outscale him.

Play safe how?

If at 6 Morde just sits in his minions and attacks the moment Ornn goes near before ulting then Ornn has no answer, and given that Morde can easily freeze the Ornn just ends up getting no CS and thus the games end before he can do anything.

I think its even more complicated. I mean morde became like that because riot gave him strong incombat sustain with conq. He pays in combat sustain for having a 30% of max hp as a shield once in a while. Right now riot gave him 15% heal on dmg on top of having that big ass shield.

Irelia can just fine buy omen too. https://u.gg/lol/champions/irelia/build

Poor statement on my part, the issue is mostly when she can do it, she cant like grab it 3rd or 4th like Morde because she has to grab more damage first or she doesnt deal enough to be strong.

Also morde is adviced to buy omen because unlike irelia he has to walk to his targets, while irelia can dash to them, minimizing the amount of dmg she will take before reachin her target.

Seriously depends on the enemy team comp.

Ok cool. Irelia should you know, at that point simply group up with her team not to 1v1, even under turret, a morde that is ahead.

Then he pushes down and starts wrecking the towers because now he has AP, then what? Send 3 people to kill him only for him to pick whoever doesnt have cleanse and kill them while his team wrecks mayhem elsewhere?

Of course he loses his team are dumb enough to try a 4v5 without a crystal clear advantage but betting that seems bad.

Morde's e has a significantly more cd than trynda's e. However you could be very well be true about zhonya. But i dont think any sane morde would try to 1v1 a strong duelist in the first place.

I mean evidently in masters they do with great success so somethings happening there.

NyarlathοtepDec 3, 20191 votes

Present a logical reason why it does not?

You might have to back off a bit from a minion wave because you need to go ward. Back off because someone is missing and might come to gank. Stuff like that.

Morde is waaay beefier than Irelia, he can easily afford to walk up to her in the middle of her casters (post lvl 6 and ideally a haunting guise+cloth armor) and then just start attacking+ult if she doesnt run.

True but its not like its a the end of the world for irelia. She can still use her abilities to dance around him for a bit. Hell you dont even need to cast q to dodge his e. The delay is big enough for most people to simple right click to away.

Irelia is sitting there and wondering what she can do.

Simple. Soak xp and wait for the wave to crash to the turret. The other thing one can do vs morde is ganking him before he gets lvl 6 where he has the chance to win a 1v2.

i just ran straight into her face and auto attacked her before ulting and starting my E then using Q while it was dragging her.

Like i said earlier, there is nothing stopping irelia from just right clicking to evade your e. Btw here a tip that you might not have noticed. Morde's ulti channeling (.75) slows for the duration. Meaning you can cast e and immediately cast ulti for an easy hook.

He goes into melee range, drops his E and she either flashes or becomes unable to dodge it and then while she´s getting dragged he Q´s.

There are 2 things she can do (or rather 1 considering its basically the same thing). 1st, (ik its getting boring saying the same thing but bear with me) right click to avoid his e since it has the same delay no matter the distance. Or repositon herself so that her q will place her behind morde. His e hitbox is more or less the same as morde's hitbox. Irelia's q places her behind her target. Although im not sure if ive ever seen it as i was playing morde.

Tiamant is considered core on her to the point where you usually want to get it before anything else, then Phage for more AD&movespeed so you can dodge stuff, the AD of both is let her auto´s and Q´s actually do some damage even when spammed quickly, also boosts healing.

Oke oke. I guess its true. Its not like i play lots of irelia or something.

What stops Morde from just freezing the minions by not letting her go near them?

Actually nothing. Thats just the nature of hard zoning.

Simple logic, a person who masters their champ will gradually be able to use the champ to their potential even if it takes time to reach that level, Masters+ players meanwhile are just there already.

Wait because i might have confused this part. So with "Simply because the strength of a champion in masters+ does not just reflect on the people up there, it reflects on the mains as well, so if a champion up there is absurdly strong then the mains post some amount of games&stream watching will be as well." you are trying to say that if x at master tier is op, then x at gold is op too (Provided that he mains x ofc)?

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/irelia/top https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/mordekaiser/top

Ah my favourite thing. Contradictions. Why the fuck cant these shitty as sites agree to something? Like for real though according to opgg morde falls off at 40+. However leagueofgraphs shows him falling of a bit, and then skyrocketing to fucking eternity (korea plat+). Like WTF IS THIS SHIT.

Anyhow now is not the time for ranting. Yeah in some servers morde has apparently strong late and in others weak. The same applies to irelia. But yeah you are right on average morde has better late.

Was it not you who was seriously doubting my claims of how easy it was to beat Irelia with Morde when i used personal experiences? x)

Im 100% sure that beating morde as trynda is far easier than beating irelia as morde. Thats why i doubted your personal experience.

Which site you looking at? Lolalytics states Vayne just isnt that bad, ever, and Olaf still isnt bad then.

I look u.gg for match ups and lolalytics for winrate/time diagrams.

If at 6 Morde just sits in his minions and attacks the moment Ornn goes near before ulting then Ornn has no answer

Yeah you are absolutely right. Minus 1 important thing. Ornn does have an answer to morde's ulti. And hook (pre 6). His w. Ive played this match up COUNTLESS times before this preseason so i have these experiences still fresh (and vice verse funnily enough). Ornn's w makes you immune to his ulti. Sure he will still steal the stats (although im not 100% sure that he does) but he wont isolate you. Also (a bit difficult) ornn can farm some minions with his q and if he is feeling daredevil enough, use his e to farm a bit.

and given that Morde can easily freeze the Ornn just ends up getting no CS and thus the games end before he can do anything.

Again thats just the inherit flaw of playing safe when you are in an impossible lane to win (on your own ofc). Aka gotten counterpicked (imo ornn is getting soft countered by morde. While morde will have difficulties killing a passive ornn, ornn on his own cant kill morde). I mean what can a garen do vs a compenent vayne or quinn? He will try to reach them with his q only to get knocked back (vs vayne) or displaced briefly and then slowed (vs quinn). After these abilities vayne and quinn can harrass him while garen tries to run away.

Here's another one. Veigar vs zed. Veigar can only play passive and farm whenever he gets the chance since zed can always kill him with ease.

There is only one thing you can do if you fall in such a situation. Play safe (as such not letting your enemy get even more lead) and hope your team wont need you (unless you have a tp and you can help them) for a while until you reach your powerspikes. Ornn, for example, unlike juggernauts (excluding voli, i always end up losing to voli top when i have ornn) doesnt have to get ahead to be useful. He just needs to buy his 2 mastercraft items by getting lvl 12 and there you go. Ornn is ready to teamfight by knocking up his enemies and providing his team with his items.

Seriously depends on the enemy team comp.

True. But usually thats how it goes.

Then he pushes down and starts wrecking the towers because now he has AP, then what?

Morde doesnt have the splitpush power of a fiora, jax, yorick, nasus or trynda. So even he goes to splitpush, your own team can just focus on another play like an objective or even a turret. Hell even to force a fight is possible.

but betting that seems bad.

Welcome to league of legends. Where hoping in miracles should be a thing. Thats essentially the life of every tank main.

I mean evidently in masters they do with great success so somethings happening there.

Yeap. But its a combination of small sample size and the fact that trynda can only splitpush. At that rank people should know how to react well to splitpushing.

ThefrostyvikingDec 3, 20191 votes

{quoted}

You might have to back off a bit from a minion wave because you need to go ward. Back off because someone is missing and might come to gank. Stuff like that.

Warding is a good case but Morde generally doesnt have to care much about the enemy jungle post 6 unless he´s too close to the enemy tower as he can just isolate either the enemy laner or the attacking jungler and proceed to murder them.

Some exceptions do occur but doing this is still fairly easy on him.

True but its not like its a the end of the world for irelia. She can still use her abilities to dance around him for a bit. Hell you dont even need to cast q to dodge his e. The delay is big enough for most people to simple right click to away.

Is his E really so easy to dodge if you dont have a lot of movespeed though? I find it easy to land it in melee range although admittedly it´s not difficult to dodge at greater distances.

Simple. Soak xp and wait for the wave to crash to the turret. The other thing one can do vs morde is ganking him before he gets lvl 6 where he has the chance to win a 1v2.

If your minions are pushing towards him and he´s freezing you´ll just be stuck for eternity though, and you cant freeze against him either without a great deal of jungle presence to help.

Dunking him out early is a valid solution though, Irelia is stronger early if she can get her passive rolling and he doesnt have enough minions around.

Like i said earlier, there is nothing stopping irelia from just right clicking to evade your e. Btw here a tip that you might not have noticed. Morde's ulti channeling (.75) slows for the duration. Meaning you can cast e and immediately cast ulti for an easy hook.

I really do not think his E is easy to dodge in close ranges at all though, but fair enough on using CC when he uses his ult&cant dodge to delay him though-

There are 2 things she can do (or rather 1 considering its basically the same thing). 1st, (ik its getting boring saying the same thing but bear with me) right click to avoid his e since it has the same delay no matter the distance. Or repositon herself so that her q will place her behind morde. His e hitbox is more or less the same as morde's hitbox. Irelia's q places her behind her target. Although im not sure if ive ever seen it as i was playing morde.

Difference between the long range E and the melee one is that he can position it to be dead centered on you whereas a long range one can usually be dodged just by running backwards.

Actually nothing. Thats just the nature of hard zoning.

Indeed, and that´s why i say that Morde is a nightmare for Irelia post 6, it´s so easy for him to just hardfreeze and then sit there until kingdom come while she falls behind until the point where he can easily towerdive.

Wait because i might have confused this part. So with "Simply because the strength of a champion in masters+ does not just reflect on the people up there, it reflects on the mains as well, so if a champion up there is absurdly strong then the mains post some amount of games&stream watching will be as well." you are trying to say that if x at master tier is op, then x at gold is op too (Provided that he mains x ofc)?

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/mordekaiser/top

Does not take many games to start reaching the grand potential now that i look at it.....10 to hit 55% winrate indeed.

Ah my favourite thing. Contradictions. Why the fuck cant these shitty as sites agree to something? Like for real though according to opgg morde falls off at 40+. However leagueofgraphs shows him falling of a bit, and then skyrocketing to fucking eternity (korea plat+). Like WTF IS THIS SHIT.

I agree with you here, it´s very hard to know what is actually right or wrong when these statistical sites all offer different statistics while quoting the same source.

Im 100% sure that beating morde as trynda is far easier than beating irelia as morde. Thats why i doubted your personal experience.

Oh.

I look u.gg for match ups and lolalytics for winrate/time diagrams. Yeah you are absolutely right. Minus 1 important thing. Ornn does have an answer to morde's ulti. And hook (pre 6). His w. Ive played this match up COUNTLESS times before this preseason so i have these experiences still fresh (and vice verse funnily enough). Ornn's w makes you immune to his ulti. Sure he will still steal the stats (although im not 100% sure that he does) but he wont isolate you. Also (a bit difficult) ornn can farm some minions with his q and if he is feeling daredevil enough, use his e to farm a bit.

I actually did not know about this particular thing despite playing against Ornn a few times, i must have gotten lucky O_O

That or the majority of Ornns just use their W without thinking much because it deals so much damage and thus waste the neat tricks like that, seems more plausible at my average game elo somehow T_T

Again thats just the inherit flaw of playing safe when you are in an impossible lane to win (on your own ofc). Aka gotten counterpicked (imo ornn is getting soft countered by morde. While morde will have difficulties killing a passive ornn, ornn on his own cant kill morde). I mean what can a garen do vs a compenent vayne or quinn? He will try to reach them with his q only to get knocked back (vs vayne) or displaced briefly and then slowed (vs quinn). After these abilities vayne and quinn can harrass him while garen tries to run away.

Doesnt that American Challenger Garen beat basically everything that isnt Kennen and vlad if it´s a 1v1 or something? Pretty sure he just picks Predator and runs down on them with so much movespeed that they cant keep him off even with their CC.

Here's another one. Veigar vs zed. Veigar can only play passive and farm whenever he gets the chance since zed can always kill him with ease.

This is actually a funny one, because Zed is a fairly safe matchup for veig in reality until Cleanse comes into play since Veig can just sit on his E until Zed ults then position himself so Zed comes out inside the stun, thus letting veigar bail out before anything can happen.

Katarina or Kassadin are harder for veig to deal with comparatively.

There is only one thing you can do if you fall in such a situation. Play safe (as such not letting your enemy get even more lead) and hope your team wont need you (unless you have a tp and you can help them) for a while until you reach your powerspikes. Ornn, for example, unlike juggernauts (excluding voli, i always end up losing to voli top when i have ornn) doesnt have to get ahead to be useful. He just needs to buy his 2 mastercraft items by getting lvl 12 and there you go. Ornn is ready to teamfight by knocking up his enemies and providing his team with his items.

What you say seems right but my experience is that when one side gets a clear advantage they always freeze the lane hard as hell and just refuse to let their opponents farm, thus making them unable to really do anything except the TP ganking trick.

Might be a bad example but yesterday i had a Neeko top against a Cassio, the two of them spent the entire lane more or less just shooting at eachother while barely farming and when Cassio got a lead she started trying to choke the lane as i described.

She just executed the thing poorly because she had pushed too far making it easy to gank her causing the entire thing to fail but the idea was there.

True. But usually thats how it goes.

Fair enough, but with supports like Nautilus/leo/blitz/thresh being popular as of now (can easily stop Irelia) i´d say Morde is favored by the meta overall more.

Morde doesnt have the splitpush power of a fiora, jax, yorick, nasus or trynda. So even he goes to splitpush, your own team can just focus on another play like an objective or even a turret. Hell even to force a fight is possible.

True he does push much more slowly and if you cant beat him then making plays elsewhere is the only option and it can work out really well if your team gets like a couple of Dragons or something.

But if that Morde sits on teleports and joins the fights before walking back to resume his pushing then shit turns sideways real fast......that´s the toplane usual though i suppose.

Welcome to league of legends. Where hoping in miracles should be a thing. Thats essentially the life of every tank main.

I do know this feeling a fair bit as Seju is my second choice jungler Q_Q

Yeap. But its a combination of small sample size and the fact that trynda can only splitpush. At that rank people should know how to react well to splitpushing.

I suppose it would be that, perhaps the Trynda´s dive Morde but he wastes their time with E+zhonya then the junglers get an easy cleanup kill but i dont know since i am nowhere near that good or a main of either champs with proper experience :P

Tin ObliteratesDec 2, 20193 votes

He was fine before this patch, Conqueror and I assume some other things broke him.

ThefrostyvikingDec 2, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tin Obliterates,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kuByVxQ8,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2019-12-02T00:57:50.644+0000)

He was fine before this patch, Conqueror and I assume some other things broke him.

As someone who played him a bit in the last patch too.......honestly i think he was really strong then too?

But tanks got better with the true damage removed, and Morde who builds Liandries+Rylai eats those as far as i know.

Tin ObliteratesDec 2, 20191 votes

{quoted}

As someone who played him a bit in the last patch too.......honestly i think he was really strong then too?

But tanks got better with the true damage removed, and Morde who builds Liandries+Rylai eats those as far as i know.

I played as and against him and he was definitely top tier but it wasn't nearly as bad as this patch.

GodlzaharDec 1, 20191 votes

Or play malzahar mid lane and enjoy your free lane. No metter what they will take against you, zed? yasuo? fizz? talon? Even with the past nerfs you will one shot them at lvl 6 with ignite and you will do strong dmg without your ult at mid game if you get your items and one shotting everything to 100 to 0 with your ult combo that dont have magic res item. Only late game against tanks with magic resist is a little hard. Dont look at some randoms that saying malzahar do 0 dmg early. He is still strong but not as fun as he was. Yes until 6 lvl you will not do good damage but at your first back when you get your dorans or t item 3802 its over.

Also for roams he is just insane too.

LanceTheMightyDec 2, 20191 votes

Kassadin Oh hey whats up, thanks for the free LP.

ThefrostyvikingDec 1, 20191 votes

Unfortunately Irelia scales like crap compared to a juggernaut like Morde, it starts out slightly even early, maybe even a bit in your favor as his Q CD is very long and his W is not very powerful.

But as he levels his Q CD becomes short, his W shield huge and his basic stat scalings are all better than Irelia´s and then he can ult you to steal 10% of your AD which means you really have no hope of beating him so he can just bonk you in his shadow arena.

She´s bad into melee 1v1 :(

NumberOneBallerDec 2, 20191 votes

He's broken right now - no doubt. He needs to be nerfed.

R0ses R RedDec 2, 20191 votes

both

BlackXIVDec 2, 20191 votes

yes

ZeroSixTeenDec 7, 20191 votes

legit mordekaiser at 3 items can 1v5 a full team of 2 item champs. whats his weakness? like all new riot designs its aboslutely nothing. Literally everything about this champion is wrong and its completely within riots own definition of toxic gameplay. They want no champions to have any weaknesses that can be taken advantage of in any way so they make kits that are perfectly designed to make sure that no matter what situation you are in or how well your opponent plays you should always be able to kill if you are ahead. they have mobility? give a pull, need to kill fast? your q is one of the highest damage spells in the game. more than one champ against you? you deal just as much damage to both of the at the same time. they klte you? ult them and they can not escape no matter what. getting focused? your abilities both heal and shield you more than a soraka + karma combo could heal and shield you. and in the end since you are technically "melee" you are a tank even if you only build ap items. oh and you get zhyonias every single fight. so yeah, I guess you chain stun him so that he cant use any abilities untill he is dead to counter him. remember if your stun lock has sinlge tiny little gap in it he will ult, get all his hp back and kill one of you. this is the kind of stuff that should make game designers sick to their stomach. so yeah unless irelias stun is long enough for you to 100-0 him while he is stunned then he counters irelia.