@Riot A Serious Insight on How to Help Kindred

Dodge Lamb Ò w Ó··53 votes·8,182 views

Allow me to preface this by stating that I've been playing Kindred pretty much exclusively since release. I've played across several accounts but here is the one I currently play on. http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=Dodge+Lamb+SRT10

It's not to gloat or try to say I'm better than other people, only to try and back up myself as a credible player that is genuinely interested in trying to help the champion.

I have one very short and simple buff, but before I state it, I want to go over why I feel what I'm about to say is a necessary change.

I am actually very happy with Kindred's mini-rework (Despite being harsh about it early on), and I think the champ is almost at a great state of balance, but we could get even closer. Kindred is a champion that, if played proficiently, can out-duel and out-skirmish almost every jungler in the game, even the ones that many people consider hard counters (such as Elise, Kha'Zix, etc.).

What I've actually noticed from the champion's release is that Kindred has not fairly often had times where beating other champs was a tall task, even with all the sustainability nerfs. I know some people are going to find that ludicrous, but the average Kindred player really does not understand the potential of the champion, which pains me to observe. The main issue is (who would've guessed) how Kindred is supposed to balance between getting stacks and pulling off successful ganks.

Understandably, Kindred has a dash, albeit very small, that operates on a small cooldown window inside of Wolf's Frenzy. The issue is that, in the early game, this ability is on too high of a cooldown to have meaningful chase potential without red buff, and even with it, to be honest.

Take the newest addition to the jungle, for example: Ezreal. While both marksmen, Ezreal is a champion that shines in the early game through his ability to enter a lane with Mystic Shot to apply his Red Buff from a large distance to slow, and close in with Arcane Shift for a strong burst combo, and finish them off with Essence Flux and his superior attack speed (At least early game, Ezreal's passive outshines Kindred's Q Attack Speed steroid quite heavily) whilst landing extra Mystic Shots.

Compare this to Kindred, who typically only has time to land two Dance of Arrows. They also miss a lot of bites from Wolf's Frenzy because most of the time you cannot be in position to maximize its damage output, and Mounting Dread can only be used as a finisher for a notable amount of damage. For a dash that's smaller on a champion with less range and less up-front damage, it's hard to get the kills you need to allow your team and yourself to get ahead on Kindred. It doesn't feel right for a champion designed for the jungle, compared to Ezreal, a champion who is not.

Kindred also has an average clear speed compared to the typical jungler, which gets progressively worse if you cannot find stacks in the early game. For a champion that's reliant on getting those stacks, they just don't feel nimble enough to get around the map and contest with their low movement speed.

There's a lot more points I want to make, but the longer I think about what I've wrote, the more convoluted I feel my words become, so I'll keep it there.

What I propose is to have Dance of Arrows cooldown inside Wolf's Frenzy changed from to 3/2.75/2.5/2.25/2 from 4/3.5/3/2.5/2. I think this allows for Kindred to be able to capitalize on their gank damage in a more timely fashion and keep up with those faster champions that can walk away due to Kindred's low base Range. I also feel that a change like this still allows for their jungle clear to be healthy as you will roughly always get the same amount of jumps per use of W as on current. And if we really want to get nitpicky about separating a great Kindred player from an average, this also makes getting two jumps per camp at Level 2 much more consistent (based on how fast you can press Q after auto attacking, it's almost frame perfect status with a standard 13.5% AS page).

I also think that it is possible to buff the cooldown of Dance of Arrows outside of Wolf's Frenzy to around 6 or 7 seconds (Likely the latter, maybe even 8) and possibly change the mana cost back down to 30 from 35. This would really help in allowing Kindred to move around the map a lot better to be able to contest stacks more often.

Kindred's problem has never been based around combat power, in my opinion. The typical player keeps saying that their ability to fight other champs is moot, or that stacks are impossible to get, and I feel that this issue stems directly from never really having the ability to move around the map well like other champions can, due to the combination of low base movement speed and lengthy early cooldowns on Dance of Arrows.

I really hope to see input from a Rioter or from anybody interested in logically debating on my ideas. I've been a diehard Kindred fan since their announcement and I want to see people be able to experience them without wanting to claw their eyes out.

70 Comments

RiotRiot Wav3Break29 votes

Don't have a lot of time to devote to this thread, but wanted to put in my 2 cents as the dev who last worked on her mini-update.

In short, I think you make a very reasonable argument. I too think that Kindred needs a bit more love to reach an optimal balance state. We have discussed buffing them recently, but they slipped in priority due to other stuff going (yay Preseason). I do believe we will be devoting time to them in the near future and that most devs on the Live Gameplay team feel that they need some love.

Not sure if our analysis will land exactly where yours did, but you do bring up a valid angle. I know in the past that their Q cooldown was a very sensitive lever to tune due to how slippery they can become. I think we would have to spend a lot of diligence in validating if a Q buff is the correct direction to take their next set of changes. I think there is a lot to be improved in Kindred's mark mini-game still as well for instance.

Base MS is also a pretty attractive lever to me at first blush as well. Hopefully we will have time to address their current state in the coming patches or right after Runes Reforged.

Dodge Lamb Ò w Ó2 votes

Thank you for your response, I really appreciate it. I do think mobility is their core issue, but I'll be curious to find out how you guys tackle the problem.

Bob the Toastr5 votes

If being slippery turns out to be a problem, maybe have the dash be a shorter distance when dashing away and a longer distance when dashing towards an enemy?

Thumpin1 votes

For what it's worth I'm interested in a buff to Q in that cooldown reduction also applies to the W+Q combo. So when at 2 seconds base cooldown by level 9 a Kindred with 40% CDR can Q every 1.2 seconds. I like this because one thing that I hoped to be addressed with the rework was build variety, which I feel still isn't in a good spot.

But I also really like the idea OP had, as well as the possibility of a base MS buff. There's a reason Mobi's were so popular for a while pre-rework.

EDIT: Also some decent skins please. Any of the ideas artwork posted to /r/kindred would do nicely. Elderwood, Tribal, hell existing lines like Dark Star would have been perfect too.

Dodge Lamb Ò w Ó1 votes

Still gonna flip a table if Blood Moon Kindred isn't part of the new set.

Laustin Space1 votes

I know this is kind of late, but. Any chance the development team might consider reverting Kindred's W placement change. My friend dropped one of her favourite champions primarily because of this and I understand why because it truly feels awkward as an adc champion in comparison to how it was prior to their update.

Linna Excel6 votes

My biggest problem with Kindred is the stacking system. It forces you to get ahead and most players aren't able to capitalize on it. If your teammates are feeding, you can't capitalize on it.

Also, wolf is pretty stupid (or just being an a - -) asking you to get a mob in the enemy's jungle when your mid towers are down and the enemy's mid towers are up. If your mid lost lane, his marks are pretty much useless.

Dodge Lamb Ò w Ó4 votes

While I agree that Kindred's stacking system isn't very intuitive, it rewards good vision control, awareness and instinct to be able to capitalize on being at the right place at the right time.

That's essentially why I suggested the additional buff to Q base cooldown and mana cost. It allows people, if they choose to, the ability to maneuver around the map to be able to contest more freely without just giving a straight up movement speed buff that's all too powerful on its own for a marksman.

Also Wolf is lame. Like, he always marks the opposite scuttle on purpose. He can eat some poo.

Shadow Hazard1 votes

The issue is that if kindred is back to a point of being able to reliably get marks, they are instantly back into the OP state thanks to the nature of the passive being by design simultaneously scaling and snowballing. Honestly the passive has to go completely but since it is such an extreme part of their kit we would basically looking at a rework were only the ult ends up likely surviving.

Kaìju1 votes

I can't remember what it was but I saw a thing talking about how to play Kindred these days and the general idea seemed to be get your four stacks and stop hunting. Once you hit the first four you just try to play like a second ADC and if you can get more cool but don't do shit like suicide for them because they don't give you damage anymore, just damage potential. I tried to apply that and did happen to do better but I'm also an ADC main in Silver with an interest in learning and improving so I may have just been playing with apes who don't want to try as hard as I do. But yeah overall that's my take on Kindred, get your four and just deal with scraping by after that.

nice table5 votes

kindred doesn't need buffs at all.

Dodge Lamb Ò w Ó18 votes

I disagree, Kindred is constantly written off and joked about as a mediocre meme tier champion that gets a lot of shit in a solo queue environment, all whilst carrying below average at best winrates across multiple ranks.

These aren't insane changes, just minute quality of life buffs that will make a lot of players feel more potent in what they do.

nice table3 votes

kindred is sitting pretty at 52% win ratio at decently high elo (diamond) while the people that have mastered them seem to wreck everything. there are a shitload of champions that struggle very hard to be viable while kindred is more than viable at every elo, sure riot seems to favor kindred over all these champs but right now kindred is actually quite balanced (maybe slightly overtuned for the people that are actually good at er)

Dodge Lamb Ò w Ó8 votes

Again, these changes are aimed at making the experience more bearable for people that cannot play them well whilst staying relatively healthy.

You're referencing an elo where people typically main or one trick the champion. 52% is a not-so-impressive number for a "main" status champion.

nice table3 votes

i'm referencing a statistic where people with 15+ kindred games played reach a 55% win ratio on her at diamond level.

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/kindred/diamond

sure kindred isn't the most broken champion at every elo anymore but shes very far from being weak or in need of buffs.

Emelie Cauchemar6 votes

[{quoted}](name=nice table,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kklJzikT,comment-id=00060000000000000000,timestamp=2017-10-03T17:08:27.532+0000)

i'm referencing a statistic where people with 15+ kindred games played reach a 55% win ratio on her at diamond level.

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/kindred/diamond

sure kindred isn't the most broken champion at every elo anymore but shes very far from being weak or in need of buffs.

League of Graph shows that the vast majority of the top winrate Kindreds play in Turkey/ Lan/ Eune >_>. Those are not good servers to be honest . . .

Additionally, most of the players that played 15+ games and have a 50% + wr are former otps that dropped her.

I'll just pick one of out random for example:

https://gyazo.com/f7c5822700987362ef7382ac57b95397

rank 5 Kindred, has brought her out two times in like a month, otherwise plays Ez jungle and Sejuani.

Is her winrate okay? Yeah, but it's held up exclusively by OTPS and the requested buff is a quality of life buff that would only impact her winrate by .5% to 1% and make her more relevant in masters elo and in lower elo. 4 seconds is honestly clunky and was an intentional over nerf that was never adjusted.

nice table2 votes

the nice thing is that you can sort by region and quickly come to realize that the stats for NA and EUW are similar while the best region of korea is even more kindred friendly. the argument about OTPS is just ... wrong with people that have little experience with kindred performing well on the champion.

also giving an early game champion 25% cdr on their best ability early game isn't a "QoL change" its quite a big buff actually.

Emelie Cauchemar3 votes

[{quoted}](name=nice table,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kklJzikT,comment-id=0006000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-10-03T19:54:20.760+0000)

the nice thing is that you can sort by region and quickly come to realize that the stats for NA and EUW are similar while the best region of korea is even more kindred friendly. the argument about OTPS is just ... wrong with people that have little experience with kindred performing well on the champion.

also giving an early game champion 25% cdr on their best ability early game isn't a "QoL change" its quite a big buff actually.

Alright.

Show me NA's Kindred's in diamond's players akin to winrates.

nice table2 votes

imsorryeveryone, Sickoscott, Keti, Lair Bear 007, SaltFishReforms etc... etc... are all good examples of people that are very far from being kindred one tricks and are all rocking good win ratios on her.

Emelie Cauchemar6 votes

[{quoted}](name=nice table,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kklJzikT,comment-id=000600000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-10-04T00:34:39.098+0000)

imsorryeveryone, Sickoscott, Keti, Lair Bear 007, SaltFishReforms etc... etc... are all good examples of people that are very far from being kindred one tricks and are all rocking good win ratios on her.

1 https://gyazo.com/65464104e2e2cfeed2be6799be1eaf2a You mean the master tier smurf who played a few games of her in silver over 4 months ago when she was "alright"?

2 https://gyazo.com/5ffcbd321ed1e12955a71dceef7c0bd5 Hasn't touched Kindred in over 3 months.

3 https://gyazo.com/1a8c6300f491e6de1696b5f94ac17e89 Keti I know personally and hates current Kindred because he prefered playing her in top lane. Very rarely plays the game because he no longer likes her.

Saltfish: https://gyazo.com/c42312ea6f8d050c220968c246b04d67 Also another smurf. Hasn't touched Kindred in over 3 months.

So far everyone you listed actually doesn't play Kindred anymore or has 0 desire to play Kindred and half of them are playing multiple tiers below their actual level and at that point can play anything they want.

[slayer-pantheon-popcorn]

Keep 'em coming though.

nice table2 votes

"give me people who don't main kindred but still play her all the time and have a high win ratio hehexd"

it's nice to see a bunch of kindred mains jerking each other off though

AlexTheGrandWolf1 votes

Your kidding me right? Wow lmao,when's the last time you have seen a preffesional in the LCS use kindred?and I checked my self.To answer, most of the high elo kindreds don't touch her at all and having be the highest in the kindred scoreboard because of their elo and not their detocation to the champion

Kaìju1 votes

But he just pointed out flaws in your arguement, how is he wrong?

Emelie Cauchemar2 votes

[{quoted}](name=nice table,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kklJzikT,comment-id=00060000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-10-04T06:41:55.257+0000)

"give me people who don't main kindred but still play her all the time and have a high win ratio hehexd"

it's nice to see a bunch of kindred mains jerking each other off though

Keti is a kindred main.

[slayer-jinx-unamused]

Also, for reference . . . if a challenger support main plays Camille in silver 5 . . . is he going to feed, or is he going to perform well? I'm pretty sure he's going to faceroll.

I made a statement and your evidence to refute my statement only supported me. You didn't even know Keti is a Kindred main because you didn't even bother to look, which also shows just how much effort you put into verifying anything you say. There's actually no point in carrying on a discussion with you anymore.

Darkomantis2 votes

You're referencing an elo where people typically main or one trick the champion. 52% is a not-so-impressive number for a "main" status champion.

Then Udyr needs bigger help than Kindred...

Dodge Lamb Ò w Ó1 votes

Nobody argues that, I completely agree.

Rinký Dinky2 votes

By this logic, Old Galio did not need changes due to having a high winrate

nice table1 votes

there's actually quite a big difference between a champion that's picked to counter certain team comps and a champion that has pretty much no bad matchups.

Thumpin2 votes

No bad matchups? Is this a joke?

nice table1 votes

feel free to let me know about kindreds bad matchups

Dodge Lamb Ò w Ó2 votes

Elise, Kha'Zix, Sejuani, Rammus, Rengar, Shyvana and Warwick are all matchups that give Kindred a really difficult time. Some of these champs smash Kindred 1v1, and others smash Kindred in team scenarios.

Rinký Dinky1 votes

Ezreal trashes her as well from my experience

NiamhNyx4 votes

PFFFFFTTTTT diamond 1? bruh, you aint good untill you can climb to bronze 5 where all the pros are at, not even I am worthy of bronze 5!.

joke aside a full 1 second reduction might be a little much, maybe a half second reduction at level 1 would be better. that way it is not to oppressive of a skill. granted EZ should not be allowed in the jungle with the power he has, so in my opinion its not best to compare kindred to him.

Dodge Lamb Ò w Ó2 votes

3/2.75/2.5/2.25/2 is mostly to keep the cooldown curve smooth. There's no proper way to scale 3.5 down to 2 in 5 intervals.

You'd be surprised at how little of an affect it has on jungle clear, it would actually be next to negligible. The main issue this would fix is having such elongated gank patterns. I cannot stress enough how long it takes for Kindred to put in the same amount of damage in a gank compared to other junglers because of how long Q's 4 second cooldown is. Thankfully at level 4 it changes, but by level 4 some early games can be over before you can have any impact.

The reason I compared Ezreal is because they're both marksman, they're both scaling glass cannons in the jungle and they share a decently similar playstyle. It's just a bit baffling that an AD Carry can have such poor rates in their main role and crush a marksman intended for the Jungle, if that makes any sense.

Häxel3 votes

But why you think kindred needs a buff? You can sue even the same website you used for showing us your profil: http://na.op.gg/champion/kindred/statistics/jungle

Kindred sits already over 50% winrate. She should be fine. And before Runes reforged come there wll be proerly no changes to her. Where she lands after the new runes are live is another point we can't currently see.

hmzero23 votes

bump until this gets attention

Blood Teller2 votes

All I want is their base movement speed buff (and maybe some armor to survive most of the jungler's damage, yes I'm looking at you Lee and Kz).

Dodge Lamb Ò w Ó2 votes

Lee Sin is actually not a tough matchup. Kha'Zix is but when you stop to think about why, it makes sense (assassin into adc yada yada adcs in 2017).

While I find it silly that champions like Caitlyn and Tristana have higher base armor whilst being safer, Kindred feels fine in the armor department, as my opinion.

The reason I opted for a stranger fix to mobility is because Kindred's movement speed fits in line with other marksmen, and while they jungle, that's still what they are. I don't think you could just tack on movement speed without it being too versatile all around the board for a marksman.

Blades in Exile1 votes

This isn't really related to your discussion but what order do you level your abilities in when jungling as Kindred? Also what items do you build in general cases?

Dodge Lamb Ò w Ó2 votes

You could've checked my op.gg for that :'D

Always Q W E, Q max -> W max -> E max. While people think E max is stronger (And in some cases, it is), W max is a lot more versatile as the higher damage allows you to shred tanks quicker, have a stronger magic damage share, and have your Q up more often if need be.

Items vary across the board, but there are three simple ones you can try. (All of them use Berserker's Greaves)

Crit build: Warrior -> BF Sword -> Shiv -> IE -> RFC -> GA/LW/BT - Keep in mind that if you use this build, opt for Warlord's or Stormraider's if you really feel you can utilize it. Warlord's is a staple though, as you'll need a form of sustain to make up for the lack of lifesteal throughout the majority, if not all of most games.

Bork build: Warrior -> Bork -> Hurricane -> LW -> GA - This build is deceptively strong. Kindred's AD ratios got buffed enough to make a build like this benefit from taking Warrior over Bloodrazor. Your skirmish and team fight potential with Hurricane bolts from 575+ range with stacks is actually insane, whilst offering good enough lifesteal to keep you up during the mid game. This has become my standard build, as it fixes Kindred's stale mid game issues while still scaling well into the late game.

Whatever Forest Within does: It's like Warrior -> Black Cleaver -> Frozen Mallet and some other stuff. I don't like this, but it supposedly still works. I don't even think he does it anymore? But I haven't seen him play in a hot second myself.

Important to note that you want Fervor on any build that isn't crit, and while I think you can use it on the crit build, you really need Warlords to offset the lack of sustain.

Emelie Cauchemar1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dodge Lamb SRT10,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kklJzikT,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2017-10-03T16:14:34.663+0000)

You could've checked my op.gg for that :'D

Always Q W E, Q max -> W max -> E max. While people think E max is stronger (And in some cases, it is), W max is a lot more versatile as the higher damage allows you to shred tanks quicker, have a stronger magic damage share, and have your Q up more often if need be.

Items vary across the board, but there are three simple ones you can try. (All of them use Berserker's Greaves)

Crit build: Warrior -> BF Sword -> Shiv -> IE -> RFC -> GA/LW/BT - Keep in mind that if you use this build, opt for Warlord's or Stormraider's if you really feel you can utilize it. Warlord's is a staple though, as you'll need a form of sustain to make up for the lack of lifesteal throughout the majority, if not all of most games.

Bork build: Warrior -> Bork -> Hurricane -> LW -> GA - This build is deceptively strong. Kindred's AD ratios got buffed enough to make a build like this benefit from taking Warrior over Bloodrazor. Your skirmish and team fight potential with Hurricane bolts from 575+ range with stacks is actually insane, whilst offering good enough lifesteal to keep you up during the mid game. This has become my standard build, as it fixes Kindred's stale mid game issues while still scaling well into the late game.

Whatever Forest Within does: It's like Warrior -> Black Cleaver -> Frozen Mallet and some other stuff. I don't like this, but it supposedly still works. I don't even think he does it anymore? But I haven't seen him play in a hot second myself.

Important to note that you want Fervor on any build that isn't crit, and while I think you can use it on the crit build, you really need Warlords to offset the lack of sustain.

Apparently Forest Within still goes Cleaver build. Though his item pathing is confusing because he's building shiv and cleaver at the same time right now which he doesn't usually do . . . but, he's also unnaturally fed, so there's that.

Celestial Lion121 votes

i just want the ult changed, it's too easy to mess it up and if you do your team will rage the entire game at you. hell even if you don't mess it up your team will rage the entire game at you saying you messed it up.

Dodge Lamb Ò w Ó3 votes

I think the ult is fine, and in fact, I think it rewards proper use fairly well. If you were to change Kindred's ultimate, you'd have to factor in the idea that Kindred no longer has their current one, and it's so damn core to her mid-game performance in tight situations. I think it's too difficult to address that and, if they did, they'd have to do a really solid job of replacing it with something that doesn't make the champion useless.

Abibyama1 votes

Surely if they gave back the W heal it wouldn't break her right?

Dodge Lamb Ò w Ó3 votes

It really would. You could double up the heal with the now-existing Warlord's and run a slightly more durable build to make most people want to quit life. It also means they would never take damage in the jungle.

It's a real shame, too, because I absolutely loved the animation and sound that came with it.

iPooUnicorns1 votes

One thing that has always irked me is that Wolf's theme is chasing down people that run, but running away is literally the best way to deal with wolf. Maybe if there was some sort of mechanic where if you've been attacked by Wolf and you leave the AoE, you get slowed.

Dodge Lamb Ò w Ó2 votes

So in essence, the same as Illaoi's Test of Spirit (E). I could dig that, or maybe even slow them on Wolf's first bite against them.

iPooUnicorns1 votes

Pretty much what I had in mind. It doesn't necessarily have to be a slow the moment you leave the circle. It could place a debuff on you if you leave the AoE, something like: If an enemy champ leaves Wolf's range, Lamb's next three auto attacks have special effects for ~2 seconds (extended by auto attacks made by Lamb). The first two auto attacks steal 20% of the target's movement speed, and the third auto attack deals missing %HP damage.

Karn Bishop1 votes

I just hate her ult + stacking in one kit, either is unreliable by themselves but both together makes it hard for kindred to have solid success areas, i expect an ult like kindreds to be on a support or tank champion but on an aggressive adc jungler? that makes about as much sense as an assassinEvelynn having an aoe shield proc ability.

I stand by my opinion that in order for her to really be the champion she was meant to be she needs to get a full sion release rework as she is again in my opinion a failure on launch design that cannot and will not be successful in a healthy way whenever she is a solid pick/strong pick.

She should be a true death transformation champion where death shifts your form from kindred to wolf whenever you die, or alternatively a death tally based off of kills/assists/large monsters that allows for a extended wolf transformation much like shyvannas dragon mechanic.

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