In my opinion, Jayce has become a sub-par champ.

Droverkyu··6 votes·2,238 views

So first post on the forums, yay, uh, yeah. I'm not good at this, but I hope this is satisfactory and that you can reply with your opinions or correct my mistakes.

Riot's been gradually nerfing him over several patches, which I have no issue with since, yeah, he was a bit OP in some cases. But the way they've been nerfing him has been really... for lack of any better terms on my mind right now, dumb.

A few patches ago, or maybe quite a few, they said that his hammer form wasn't being used enough. So they nerfed his cannon. Understandable, the EQ combo at that time was ridiculous. So playing him became more difficult, okay, good, I'm personally of the belief that if a champion is good, then they should require at least some level of skill.

But then they nerfed him again, and again, and so on. Before this was his cooldown nerf, which already boosted his cooldowns to an iffy amount. 12 seconds just to switch stances? 16-8 seconds for his q? At that time it was okay since he could still chain combos and switch over to another stance. Now the mana costs and stuff are higher, the damage is lower, etc. Pretty much half of every game is spent being OOM.

And yeah, his hammer w passive means that mana regenerates with each hit, but it's just not practical since it restores such a small amount per hit and all of his skills take so much mana that a whole wave is barely equal to a maxed out EQ.

Jayce still does a good amount of damage, but it can only occur once since you pretty much exhaust all your abilities within a few seconds of a team fight and are stuck in one form with 10 second cooldowns for everything, so by the time you can actually alternate between forms in a team fight, it's already too late to do anything. When Jayce was announced, he was portrayed as a versatile champ who could use his cannon combo, switch to hammer, jump in with q, do damage, then switch back to cannon and get everyone out with an acceleration gate, or etc. In shorter terms, a versatile champ that worked well with a team, but could still stand alone.

Now you can EQ, maybe hammer-q in, if you hadn't switched stances recently, w, e, whatever, but then you're stuck with no cannon, no skills up, no mana unless you jumped in with full, and everyone's focusing you since you did the most damage.

The only way I've seen most Jayces participate in team fights recently without instantly dying is EQ, then ditch. So pretty much, just poking and ditching. No freedom to choose a different strategy, no versatility whatsoever.

And his laning phase is atrocious. He can push in bursts, but then he's out of mana and pretty much at the mercy of everything around since, early game, he's too weak to actually do proper damage with autoattacks. Since he's a traditional snowballing champ, he's targeted by most junglers and not only do you have to deal with no sustain whatsoever, even with all mana regen runes, you have to deal with a camping jungler on like every other game. 1v1 is impossible unless you're fed.

I've played league for 2-3 years now, I've played many different champs, but the one I always go back to is Jayce since I always loved the freedom of playing him. Last year, I could carry a game. My typical KDA was 10-15 kills, 2-6 deaths, and several assists on an average winning game. At that time, most people didn't complain about him being OP anymore, or at least in my experience lurking the forums and playing. Now, once again, for lack of any better terms, I can't do shit with him.

I can play most champs at least decently and make a positive contribution to my team. But with Jayce, I can't do that anymore. It's genuinely frustrating to see a champ I used to do so well with and not be able to do anything with it. I've seen many people who used to play him just stop because they can't deal with the limitations anymore.

30 Comments

Dunky McDunkface8 votes

Long time Jayce main here. Agree.

They overdid it without compensation. I'm still gonna main him. Im jsut gonna further question riot's balancing confidence.

Droverkyu6 votes

That's basically what I've been doing. I've spent so long playing him for so many games that I'm still going to play him. It's still frustrating though.

Fed by Snu Snu5 votes

The hyper-charge nerf really made his teamfight presence in the mid-game kinda sub-par.

He can only poke right now.

And yet he is still forced to build full glass-cannon if he wants to be even remotely useful.

It's kinda sad, that hyper-charge nerf was completely unjustified and if the problem was criticals, then it should have just been tweaked to be unable to crit. People would just go back to his TF build, which was still decent.

And by nerfing hyper-charge they don't nerf his cannon form, but his melee all in. So it's obvious people would stop going in. I guess Riot's thought process went like this:

"Hyper-charge is a cannon form skill, it must mean it's only used in that form and never in melee, HURR DURR"

I guess they never realised that hyper-charge is the most core aspect of Jayce's melee all-in.

Droverkyu3 votes

The nerf was somewhat justified as it was unintentional. However, they did exaggerate how much effect it had. They said they'd balanced it by reducing the cool down, but they actually made it longer as they made it fire off the final shot, so it was a complete and total nerf which made his tower pushing down ability, one of the things that made him a legit champ after the aggressive cooldown nerf, on the same level as any other AD champ.

Fed by Snu Snu1 votes

Not that nerf. That nerf was justified overall, although I'd argue that Riven should have the same treatment on her Q.

That nerf was followed by another one which was a straight up damage reduction from 130%/hit to 110%/hit. That was the big hit to his hyper-charge that made it really lackluster.

Sometimes I don't even go in late-game overall, because if I don't crit, I won't burst someone properly. So instead of removing the crit problem, they now made crit mandatory. mfw.

Droverkyu1 votes

Holy crap, I didn't even know they did that.

That's just ridiculous, why would they do that???

I'm flabbergasted, did they give a reason???

Fed by Snu Snu2 votes

Yes, they said they wanted Jayce to use his hammer form more.

So they nerfed his all-in with it.

Ye, "I don't even..." either.

To be precise:

For a guy so strong when it comes to long-range combat, it doesn't make the most sense that he should blow you up in close-quarters without the use of his hammer. Lowering Hyper Charge's late-game shenanigans should keep even the most fed Jayce's out there from getting too unfair. It's also unfair for him to be that good looking, but that's not something we can nerf.

Droverkyu1 votes

What the fuck.

"Late-Game Shenanigans"???

You can't even use the damn thing in a team fight several times, you do a lot of damage to ONE non-tank champion, how is that even remotely asking for a nerf? Jesus fucking christ, the mana cost isn't even WORTH using it 85% of the time before the nerf, holy fuck.

Thanks for bringing this up, I had no idea it was THIS ridiculous.

Fed by Snu Snu1 votes

By "shenanigans" they refer to his interaction with critical, because IE jayce was a thing at a time.

So they made crit even more mandatory by recuding the baseline damage output.

Should just made it unable to crit and get us to return to tri-force. But that flew right over their head I guess.

Dunky McDunkface2 votes

{quoted}

The nerf was somewhat justified as it was unintentional. However, they did exaggerate how much effect it had. They said they'd balanced it by reducing the cool down, but they actually made it longer as they made it fire off the final shot, so it was a complete and total nerf which made his tower pushing down ability, one of the things that made him a legit champ after the aggressive cooldown nerf, on the same level as any other AD champ.

They simply need to make him beefier. I really wish Riot would pay attention to these things.

Matezoide3 votes

The vast majority of the roster is sub-par at best, shit at worst.

BeatzBoyFTW2 votes

Well I prefer if they could at least buff his bonus armor & magic resist while in Hammer form, so he wouldn't be too useless in heavy teamfights. Every little bit of number counts :p

Dunky McDunkface2 votes

{quoted}

Well I prefer if they could at least buff his bonus armor & magic resist while in Hammer form, so he wouldn't be too useless in heavy teamfights. Every little bit of number counts :p

This is the only balance change they need to make. If they dont want him dealing as much damage, make him beefier in his melee form. Riot's balance team is SO incredibly slow that it takes months for anything to actually happen. Im not talking about new champs and reworks, Im talking about meta champs that need adjusted and champs that need smaller buffs. They just dont do it. I dont know why, but they need to hurry up.

B3ER2 votes

In the case of Jayce, they removed his strengths while increasing his weaknesses. Now he feels meh, even when played right.

ABlueQuaker1 votes

To be fair, Jayce's kit is a nightmare to balance. His Q ---> E combo in both forms holds a lot of his power budget while his W in both forms is lacklustre at best.

I'd honestly like to see his power shifted from Poke ---> Hard Engage to Sustained Damage Output.

Perhaps his Ultimate Active needs a change. Perhaps his Ultimate Active needs to be changed into a Passive that Augments each form to more heavily accentuate Melee or Ranged gameplay.

EDIT: And stance-dancing to maximize sustained damage output in each form.

Droverkyu1 votes

I think that'd be a good idea, or something similar. I do think the stance change can be very powerful simply by sheer unpredictability and how versatile it is, but people shouldn't be punished for using it. His Ws have their own uses, like his cannon W for pushing down turrets and his hammer W goes well when paired with the Q since it adds just that small amount of extra dps which can really affect things. But now they're just not worth using them at all due to the cooldowns and the mana costs.

If players are dreading using a champion's kit, then something's wrong.

Dunky McDunkface1 votes

^ Yeah, it was left in a tricky spot. I think they should make it apply on hit effects like sheen, but not be able to crit. I feel that would be reasonable. It'd also push him into the "caster" spot he was supposed to be in all along.

Remlap12231 votes

I haven't played Jayce in forever (too many champs, not enough time), but I do enjoy playing him when I do. Did the nerf really hit him that hard?

Junkο1 votes

I have a friend that mains Jayce and he completely stomps his lane everytime.

Droverkyu1 votes

Oh yeah, it's definitely possible to stomp in lane simply because of the stance changes and the kit. But you can also stomp with Yorick or Urgot or any other champ.

The issue is that, for a champ who used to snowball easily, winning in lane is now stupidly complicated and difficult for most people unless they have all CDR runes or Mana regen runes. And Jayce falls off hardcore late game now since he can only burst then ditch if you use a build where you actually want to do damage.

Junkο1 votes

That i agree with. I can't play a ton of champs i used to be able to play just because it's way more complicated to win the lane now.

GloriousKaiser1 votes

I think Jayce is balanced, not sub-par. The #LC$B!GPLAY$Z ones are the champions who just do his job better Nidalee .

Jungle, Top, Mid, heck even Support if you're good enough.

Why bother picking Jayce if Nidalee can bring more damage, more mobility, and more utility into a team?

Droverkyu2 votes

Jayce and Nidalee are honestly very very different in terms of play style. I don't understand why people keep comparing them.

They fill different positions, their early games might be a bit similar, but after laning they're just... different.

And saying that one champion is better than another, so you should ignore the other is honestly not a good solution.

I used to play Jayce in every lane and do well, now even the most high-ranking players struggle simply because of how hard he's been hit with the nerf-hammer.

If I recall correctly, the average win rate for Jayce went down from being 60+ [admittedly, a sign that does call for a nerf] down to less than 40 [a sign that the nerf went way too far].

Don't compare Jayce and Nidalee, it's just not a good comparison. It's like saying Jax and Xin are almost the same, or Jinx and Caitlyn are.

GloriousKaiser1 votes

What's different?

Both Poke, both go all in to finish the kills. Both have multiple abilities. No they are similar. Jayce and Nid can go mid and top. Jayce can't jungle however, at least not well.

And saying that one champion is better than another, so you should ignore the other is honestly not a good solution.

Nobody is saying that, in fact I abhor that as well.

I'm not even denying that he's not as good as he was before. I played Jayce when he first came out. I could basically play like Nidalee and bully people out of lane, if I wanted to, I could easily go all in for the kill because my kit allowed it to.

Don't think they're different because they have different "roles". In the end, they both have the same playstyle albeit Nidalee with more jumping burst attatched.

My point still stands, why pick Jayce when Nidalee does everything he can do better?

Droverkyu2 votes

Ugh rereading my comment makes me see how dickish I was talking. My bad, I shouldn't have written when I had a headache, haha

Yeah, I see your point. But as someone who does play the occasional Nidalee they just feel really different. However, I am comparing this to current Nidalee to current Jayce. When Jayce first came out, yeah, they were similar in the engage bit, but overall the laning strategies and ganking strategies are much much more different. But a lot of what I'm saying may be due to my bias against her since she's ridiculous in terms of AP scaling with the right build [1000+ AP anyone?] and her spears' broken hit boxes. I don't know if what I'm saying is even making any sense to anyone but me right now, lol

Slushi Simcambi1 votes

Optimally Jayce would use both his forms equally, but at this point Cannon form is his primary with the Hammer being mainly used for his e.

Dunky McDunkface1 votes

Bump.

Wînter Fox1 votes

Bumping this thread for Jayce justice! They constrained Jayce way too much where he needs 2-3 items (mana/cdr) just to function properly, meanwhile every other champ is running circles around him until mid game. Then they nerfed his late game so much that its barely worth all that build up.

Axests1 votes

as i've always said, nerfing or buffing a champion for not doing well in the meta (or vice versa) is the dumbest thing you can do when balancing. At least it is if you aren't prepared to change them again with other patches. Jayce seems fine to me, like he always has, he just requires better decision-making when fighting.

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