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To the enchanter supports. Buy redemption as a 4th item. It's ok to buy MC as a first item.

progamer922··3 votes·1,156 views

I made this for the enchanter supports. I chose Lulu but It can be similar for other enchanter supports. I made the calculations where I calculated the cost of gold you need for 1 point of shielding. Her base shield is 210, I did not use other AP items or runes, or masteries except the items tested. Her shield scales with 60% AP. I did not test other champions like Rakan, Janna or Soraka so we can discuss later how the calculations change. I used windspeakers blessing as a mastery. And I assumed you max the shield first and you value the shield (or heal) as the most important abilities. I wanted to see which support item or item combination gives you the most shield power for the least amount of gold. I used all the combinations of the following items: Athene's unholy grail, redemption, ardent censer, Mikael's crucible, Forbidden idol Here are the conclusions.

  1. After the gold item your first buy should be the forbidden idol, than other things. You do not need boots in lower elo if you know how to position. The decision for a sightstone is on you although I do not want it in low elo, but after that buy forbidden idol first. Your first complete item item should always be either AC or Mikael's depending on the match up and the AP scaling of the champion. Their efficiency for the shield and their passives just make them better choice than any other items.
  2. Your second item AC+MC. You have to buy MC at some point of the game. Better buy it early so you can use its cleanse from early on. And buying it before AC when enemy has hard cc is also justified and gold efficient. a. Alternatively very rarely Athene's can also be a second item in the combination AC+ Athene's or MC +Athene's but i would not go into the details of this.
  3. Third item. AC+MC+Athene.
  4. 4th item. Go for the forbidden idol, and then for the Redemption. This is the most effective path.
  5. 5th item, Maybe forbidden idol and then some other AP item if you can complete it. Or complete the coin. Or locket maybe. I do not know yet. I leave it to the reader to figure it out. To conclude the most optimal path should be Forbidden idol, then AC or MC, then another forbidden idol, MC or AC, Athene's, forbidden idol, Redemption. Then other items like locket maybe, complete coin, another forbidden idol, some AP...

Note that the numbers kind of change if we take sorcery as a mastery and if the shield on the champion scales for more than 60% AP. This makes Athene's an attractive choice for a second item after the AC, and the MC can be third if the enemy has no hard cc. Although I think it is too late to buy it as a third when the enemy has hard cc.

I can post the calculations but I do not know how to post screenshots fast.

19 Comments

Poske3 votes

Ugh no its not you would get flamed for that in my elo

Mikeal is incredibily Weak and ultra gimmicky

GinoSoldier2 votes

As someone who plays entirely too much of Sona and not enough of any other champion in the game, my opinion is this;

Mikael's Crucible is a waste of gold when straight AP enhances everything your champion does. Movement speeds on Janna, Sona, Nami, Lulu. Damage enhancers on every single Enchanter. Healings, Shieldings and Damage are really the least of it when you look at Enchanter kits in their wholes.

They don't have terrible AP scalings either.

While i understand it's not worthwhile to get Deathcap and Archangels on supports because the items are too costly and really give nothing else than AP, on the other hand, an item like Mikael's or even Redemption cause terrible damage to the Enchanter's kit potentials. Sure, you get to negate a stun with Mikaels. Not so useful against knockups and displacements, which are increasingly common. Sure, you get a strong heal out of Redemption... Once every now and then.

Meanwhile you have skills on 5 second cooldowns which would benefit massively from you buying Censer, Athene's and more straightforward AP-granting items, like Luden's and Morello. It's just a shame there isn't more variety on the enchanter item roster.

And yes, i know i'm horribly biased, but i largely prefer strong kits over gimmicky items. League could remove every single item active in the game and i'd be happier for it.

!!!!Note; I also understand that not all Enchanters aspire to be late game, AP-steroid boosted monstrosities and also want to remain relevant during the game, which building AP, for Enchanters, is really iffy.

progamer9223 votes

{quoted}

As someone who plays entirely too much of Sona and not enough of any other champion in the game, my opinion is this;

Mikael's Crucible is a waste of gold when straight AP enhances everything your champion does. Movement speeds on Janna, Sona, Nami, Lulu. Damage enhancers on every single Enchanter. Healings, Shieldings and Damage are really the least of it when you look at Enchanter kits in their wholes.

They don't have terrible AP scalings either.

While i understand it's not worthwhile to get Deathcap and Archangels on supports because the items are too costly and really give nothing else than AP, on the other hand, an item like Mikael's or even Redemption cause terrible damage to the Enchanter's kit potentials. Sure, you get to negate a stun with Mikaels. Not so useful against knockups and displacements, which are increasingly common. Sure, you get a strong heal out of Redemption... Once every now and then.

Meanwhile you have skills on 5 second cooldowns which would benefit massively from you buying Censer, Athene's and more straightforward AP-granting items, like Luden's and Morello. It's just a shame there isn't more variety on the enchanter item roster.

And yes, i know i'm horribly biased, but i largely prefer strong kits over gimmicky items. League could remove every single item active in the game and i'd be happier for it.

I agree for the most part. I opened this thread because I see almost everyone who plays support buying redemption early, even tank supports. And I rarely see supports buy Athene's which is a much better early item. Even the MC gives you more value than redemption in the early game.

GinoSoldier1 votes

Again, as someone who plays entirely too much Sona, the ONLY reason i don't get Athene's on her (despite it being actually bloody efficient), is because i like stacking straight AP too much, and considering i'm unwilling to buy Mikael's and Redemption, that means the item only nails me 70 AP. Or i can just wait a bit longer, get Luden's, nail a free damage proc, %MS and more AP.

But that's just me, and pretty much only on Sona.

FantasySniper2 votes

If you're maxing [W] first - which a noteworthy minority are doing with success, especially in high elo - Mikael's provides sustain comparable to Athene's and Ardent, heals yourself a shocking amount through Hp5, and it has the strongest item active in the game right behind Redemption.

That said, Athene's is still the superior rush because of its sheer efficiency.

GinoSoldier1 votes

I'm biased in the way that i always think about lategame no matter who i play. I also like my games long, and a (decently) bad early game doesn't matter to me as long as we can drag it out to lategame. What will help a Sona carry/end a game lategame? Not Mikaels. Having 600+ AP however? Now that's worth considering.

Usual build path in botlane looks like: item 2301 item 3504 item 3100 item 3285 item 3003 item 3089 . If things are especially rough, i'll get item 3174 before moving on to more AP.

Note that i have the exact same build path in midlane, minus the item 2301 .

FantasySniper1 votes

Thinking you'll make it to end-game is an inherently flawed logic, but lets focus on the rest: Sona scales much better through utility than AP. Lich Bane and Luden's Echo only accomplish damage, and while one of them may be excusable if you don't have a better APC on your team, both just kills your budget for some extra burst that your team probably doesn't even need. Archangel's is an ok pickup, but there's no reason to upgrade Tear until you're nearing full build. Rabadon's is the biggest offender. As a support, you just can't afford it. Build Soulstealer if you want to stack AP.

GinoSoldier1 votes

First thing; The term 'can't afford' is extremely relative here. What should i get instead? A lower payoff item that i can complete faster? All of Sona's important items are bought, meaning Lich's, Watcher's and Censer. As the last item of my already above-average cost build, by that point everyone has already hit full build, and i can afford to clear camps, take blues if my team doesn't need it, and use my above average MS to go CS some, or use my stronger scalings to pick off the cannon minions off of waves without hurting the team.

But you claim that Sona scales much better off of utility than AP, here's my answer to you;

Exemples at 500 AP, which is before Deathcap, with my build.

W Powerchord: 25+4% AP damage reduction. That's 45%. Crucial to counter carries such as Yi or even Vayne in a kit that has no reliable CC against them.

E Powerchord; 40+4% AP slow. 60% slow on a (arguably) 3-4 seconds cooldown.

W Healing; 115+125 healing, with a 130+150 shield on top. Every 3.5 seconds. Not counting Censer. While i do need to go through the numbers, i highly doubt Sona heals as much off of Mikael's, Redemption and whatever little AP you have after that. Even if she does, it doesn't seem enough to me to compensate for everything else she loses.

E %MS buff; This here is the most powerful argument for AP Sona. 14+30%MS permanently. That's stronger than a Sivir ult as a base, and you can keep your allies boosted near-permanently as well. But add a combined +25% from Lich's, Censer and Luden's to Sona herself and she becomes one of the fastest champions in the game, who ALSO requires no boots, therefore gaining yet another late-game advantage over other champions.

Not even taking damage into account, i'll make the claim that this here is better than any combination of typical support items you can buy and use. It takes longer to get? Yes. Is it worth it? Yes, i do believe so.

chipndip11 votes

What are your credentials to back up buying Crucible as a first item?

progamer9221 votes

Like i said I calculated the gold spent per 1 unit of shielding. And even by that standard MC is very efficient. Then if we take the passives into account it is very good early item. Probably very close to the Ardent Censer and even better in many team compositions.

Mig891 votes

You don't buy AC for the heals or shields. You buy it for the boost it gives the adc. Idk if you don't understand this or are trying to noob trap people into not buying ardent because you hate the item like the rest of us but mikaels is niche at best and rushing it is ALWAYS going to put you behind

GinoSoldier1 votes

On the PBE currently, they're changing Censer's damage to not drain-heal anymore, as well as tweaking some numbers. I'd MUCH rather they made it stronger, but killed off the %AS the item gives, since that's what breaking it.

Mig891 votes

I agree removing the attack speed would make it nice. That or the lifesteal has to go. Im a support main and love when support items are strong but they went a tad overboard. I'll admit enchanters aren't my favorite to play but my class counters them pretty hard and when that's not happening the game doesn't feel right. I don't need to stomp them but when they get this one item and the DAMAGE they provide outclasses mage support damage something is a little off.

War shrike 971 votes

You havent shown your numbers and you posted this 8 hours ago. Even if you cant upload the picture here, you can still show the math in text. Also, you buy AC for its AS boost and DMG boost to adc, not mainly for its +10%shields. Have you considered that? It's quite irritating since you show no maths to back up anything, on top of that you have completely lost the plot by only looking at shields. If we only want shields then you might aswel just buy redemption.

I think you need to study more on what makes certain items strong too, you seem to not understand why AC is so strong.

Winterwings1 votes

But item 3222 has such terrible combat stats, about 80% of its supposed "power budget" is shoved into the 20% H/S Power and the Cleanse active...

Martyrofsand1 votes

The only time I would consider buying a Mikaels first would be if my team is depending heavily on 1 person to carry, for whatever reason, and the other team is stacked with champs like Morg/Thresh/Elise/etc who can lock them up and kill them.

Other than that I might buy it last item or something but frankly going Rakan/Raka/Sona/Nami/Janna/Lulu there is really no reason to not be buying Ardent first unless your ADC is someone like Jhin or Ezreal who get nothing from it.

Athene's can be reasonable in correct situations and on correct champions. I've had some decent success with it when I buy it on Rakan but again it's not even close to a first item, and generally I get it after I've completed Sightstone, Ardent, Talisman and Redemption all of which tend to have a much bigger impact when used right.

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