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Support damage

HardHoward··2 votes·1,154 views

Support mages do more damage than adc’s early game, which snowballs into a cheese, I have played a few games cheesing and being cheesed and it’s pretty obvious that mage support is a bit too strong, morgana Jhin bot lane who’s the carry guess what it isn’t jhin it’s morgana, lux fortune same again zyra ezreal same again, what is the point in adc if we can just cheese the lane and deal more damage. I know there is an answer shut down the support but I just can’t see why a support character can dish out a heavy cc followed by heavy damage, I’ve seen many people state problems with the amount of damage champs spurn out and I’m starting to get it now, Kayle late game for instance that shit is just insane how is that not obvious, I know certain champs should scale for pay off but cmon surely at least have a look at the damage early game with support mage lux,brand zyra why would you want alistar on your team is he going to contribute cc and damage in a team fight like a mage can ?

12 Comments

ZephyrDrake9 votes

Supports have always done more damage than ADCs early. This is not a new thing. ADCs damage is highly linked to items vs supports that don't really scale all that well with items, offensive wise at least. Why would I want an alistar over a zyra and whatnot? Because he has more reliable CC and doesn't blow up from people just looking at him funny?

A Sutpid Idot2 votes

{quoted}

Supports have always done more damage than ADCs early. This is not a new thing. ADCs damage is highly linked to items vs supports that don't really scale all that well with items, offensive wise at least. Why would I want an alistar over a zyra and whatnot? Because he has more reliable CC and doesn't blow up from people just looking at him funny?

But why have an Alistar when alistar dies from getting sneezed on

ZephyrDrake1 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Sutpid Idot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kENoe46Z,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-03-23T04:39:56.579+0000)

But why have an Alistar when alistar dies from getting sneezed on

and by "sneezed on" you mean completely focused down? if an Alistar is dying that fast then that Alistar is doing something horribly wrong

Boatwhistle1 votes

Yeah but then what happens is the ADC pulls ahead in dmg over the support and the support ends the game with 10-20k dmg to enemy champions 20k being a ton for most of them while adcs can do 25-60k dmg depending. What the mage supports do is continue to be a damage menace over the games duration, with any sort of success the typical mage supports will even become damage carries.

Boatwhistle2 votes

Brand, lux, morg, zyra, vel koz, Sion, and xerath are not supports. They are in the sense they have abilities that can help allies supportively(however that's most champions in the game) and they are in the sense that they can occupy the role and be effective. However these are side effects to these champions kits, they don't need to follow up for any part of their kit... they have that built in, follow up is a bonus. However they are not supports in the way that Alistar Bard Blitzcrank BraumJanna Leona Lulu Nami Pyke Rakan Sona Soraka Taric Thresh Zilean are.

These are champions whose abilities are dependent on/greatly more effective and balanced around intended presence of allies. They don't just prefer allies by around for their combos like most champions, they need their allies to be around in order to be effective. Examples: In terms of mobility braum and rakan e's are like jax q, however jax can hop to anything you can target accept towers and inhibitors. Braums and Rakan kit rely on the presence of allies. Thresh Q, however he cant attack during the stun, he can only use abilites. So a long range stun you don't want to go in on is only worth while if you have and allies with ranged poke. The value of his lantern lies in people grabbing it. Soraka effectively has one less ability without an ally, I mean come on. Taric can build what ever he wants and tank all day but he wont meet the dmg potential of eveyrthing else with just his passive and E, so yeah he will live forever buts its worthless without an ally to kill them.

take brand... he doesn't need nobody to kill 1-2-3-4 even 5 people, he can be an effective support pick but he isn't a support to the same extent and it certainly was not intended for him.

Silly Neeko2 votes

While I somewhat agree with your commentary.... i also disagree. If you are tossing out all those other champions.... you need to toss out Zilean, and Sona and Pyke for those very same exact reasons.

In all honesty, you are right. Nearly everything CAN be played as support (to varying degrees of effectiveness), however they all fill a specific niche. Quite a few of them can be played in a solo lane and do just fine, often better than a usual laner of that lane. For example, i absolutely tormented a Teemo top as Zilean, so much so that my first back was at 47 cs to their 10.... and they had just had to finish their second back after having had just used their teleport to get back in the first time....

I usually take Blitzcrank mid and blow up mid laners, top laners, ADCs, Junglers, Supports... well aslong as none of them are tanky persay, otherwise it takes a tad more than Q, E, R passive, R to kill them.... but usually thats about it.

I take Soraka mid vs Zeds and annoy the living crap out of them because if they ulti me.... E silence, Q heal, move speed boost while running away... lots of sustain, global save, less points in W means more points in Q and E.

Zilean mid works too.

Ive taken Nautilus top, Lulu top.... ive seen Sona taken top and mid.... Taric and Braum are surprisingly a pain in the butt in top lane too, especially vs more melee type champions.

Who needs follow up?

Yes, ADCs are useful, if paired with a support that helps compliment them.... they can 2v5 easy peasy. With a mage support or an enchanter either way. It is all about who you are working with.

Supports are there to help harrass the enemy team and keep the ADC alive. If that means death foe the enemies.... so be it. Why? Because death is the best cc. If they are poked out of lane.... will your team complain? No. You are doing your job. That simple.

Boatwhistle2 votes

All supports can be effective in other roles, however its more circumstantial then the meta champions for those roles and most need to the game to end early or they get out scaled. At best they can be pocket pick for certain match ups like taric, zilean, and pyke but most of the time most of them are just troll picks. The mage and tank supports brought from other lanes are less so circumstantially effective in their intended lanes cause they are balanced around those lanes(ideally). Perhaps they aren't meta at a given time, however they are far more often/more likely to be effective in those lanes then the true supports. Even when not meta these mages will also typically be more effective then supports in those lanes as well.
I will not say that mages shouldn't be viable as supports, however I am frustrated when I see they are out preforming/a higher tier then actual dedicated intended supports even in high level play. In my opinion that is a sign of bad design.

Metal Janna2 votes

Did you know? The "carry" part of "Attack Damage Carry" has two meanings. Support carries them early game. They carry the team late game. That's how it's always been. Damage is too high for sure, but on everyone. I didn't used to be able to burst 60% of an enemy ADC's HP with my Orianna combo... but then I didn't used to die in three Vayne autos either.

Boatwhistle1 votes

mage supports damage doesn't fall off as much as the intended supports though, particularly so if they have any success.

Metal Janna2 votes

{quoted}

mage supports damage doesn't fall off as much as the intended supports though, particularly so if they have any success.

Who falls off late in this meta? All I see is snowballing lately. Even allegedly early game picks like Fizz and Lee.

Boatwhistle1 votes

well as an example, most of the intended supports... as I said.

Metal Janna1 votes

{quoted}

well as an example, most of the intended supports... as I said.

Sona: Scales pretty hard. Gradually climbs from 46.43 to 61.9% WR as games grow longer. Soraka: Gradual drop from 52.53% to 51.6%. Janna: 52.19% > 49.28% at 40 minutes after which she spikes back up to 62.16%. Morgana: 52.74% > 51.4%, followed by sharp falloff to 43.96% in >40 minute games Blitzcrank: Gradual decline from 52.15% > 50.5% over all game lengths. Some of the less meta supports: Rakan: 43.79% in 0-25 minute games, finally becomes useful 49.35% in the 25-30 minute range and gradually becomes stronger after that. Braum: Meteoric rise from 43.81% > 57.14% as the game grows longer. This guy scales like a champ! Tahm Kench: 42.69%, growing to 45.97% as games go on, shooting up to 62.5% for games longer than 40 minutes. Taric: 50.96%, holding steady until the 35-40 minute range, at which he reaches 65.31% before dropping off to 30% in games that go any longer.

So out of those 9 standard, meta "supports", only two of them drop off very much at all, and those only in games that last longer than 40 minutes. Most of them actually grow stronger the longer the game goes on. And no, these aren't cherrypicked examples. Literally went with the top five standard "support champions" (excluding the ones people typically say "don't belong" bot) followed by three of the worst of the "still played in plat+" support champs, and Taric just because I wanted to point out that playing the crap out of a champion that's an exception to the trend may have skewed your view of the trend.

Meanwhile out of those obnoxious mage supports that people claim "don't belong" bot, FiddlesticksVelkozLuxXerathVeigarZyra only Veigar and Vel'koz end up much stronger in lategame than they are in the early game. So tell me again how mages don't fall off like your undefined "intended supports" do?

Nice 80 game win streak btw. Totally legitimate I trust? Nothing suspicious there at all.

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