QSS needs an AP upgrade

azraiell·Feb 20, 2017·136 votes·4,738 views

Is pretty essential to survive against many team comps/champs these days. IT's past time there was an upgrade to it that gave AP stats or even neutral stats. Why is an essential item upgradeable for AD champs only.
Something along the lines of + 35- MR, + 60 AP +20 Mpen for a similar cost

Could do a neutral version as well, +45 MR +450 Health +movespeed.

Just seems silly that such an important item is only viable for ADs. They already have edge of night, if you're a caster vs someone with both you gotta hit them with 3 spells to crack their defenses which is usually way more than enough time to kill you

130 Comments

DepártFeb 20, 201721 votes

There doesn't have to be an AD-AP equal for every item.

AP has Zhonya's, AD has QSS.

Also, if a QSS is really that necessary for you there's nothing stopping you from buying it. You can sit on a QSS for majority of games and not make it to the point where you need to sell it as a mage or ap assassin.

ThefrostyvikingFeb 20, 20175 votes

{quoted}

There doesn't have to be an AD-AP equal for every item.

AP has Zhonya's, AD has QSS.

Also, if a QSS is really that necessary for you there's nothing stopping you from buying it. You can sit on a QSS for majority of games and not make it to the point where you need to sell it as a mage or ap assassin.

Except AD also gets item 3814 item 3155 item 3091 and the QSS against AP.

The only dedicated AP against AD is item 3157 . And the game has changes since zhonya was added, AD champs have evolved and mages still have their old items to deal with it altho some new champs and abilities however the old mages feel like they get punished quite hard by say a enemy assassin stacking item 3814 and item 3140 they just dash ontop of you and you can't peel them off and you have seconds before you die to to lack of armor.

DepártFeb 20, 20179 votes

Well lets see, lets go ahead and take wits end out because that item barely works on any champion and is a waste of a slot.

QSS resistances are relatively meaningless in a 4+ item scenario and is all about the removal of CC.

That leaves us with EoN which is pretty strong right now(mainly because of the spellshield and not the MR), and hexdrinker/maw which offer incredibly weak damage stats in exchange for an anti burst AP shield and some stats when the shield pops.

EoN is broken and is a large contributor to the lethality meta, hexdrinker and maw is severely outclassed by it. You will rarely see both items unless against an extremely AP heavy team.

Now we get to my favorite part, I so often see people bring up every MR item that has any sort of offensive stats on it and compare that to Zhonya's as the only armor item and say "You have all this mr and we only have this armor!1!1!"

You seem to be forgetting the ridiculous amount of other hybrid items AP classes are offered. item 3151 item 3030 item 3152 item 3027 item 3116 item 3001 . I know these items aren't amazing choices on some AP champions all the time, but neither is maw or wits end, so we won't be accepting that argument.

All of these items have significant defense stats, all without giving up much damage or other utilities.

AD champions have no AD/armor items, do you know why? Because it's not good for game balancing.

AP champions build more health as their defensive stat, AD champions build more resistances as their defensive stat.

That's how the game is balanced out, health is also coincidentally a very good stat against lethality while anything under 180 armor isn't.

ThefrostyvikingFeb 20, 20172 votes

Mecurial schimitar resistance is 35 yes? That is enough to bring one from 65 mr to 100 which in terms of magic damage negated is a rise from 35-40% to 50% Quite good but it's indeed the active that important. And it also offers life steal and AD in addition. I personally often build this item to good success for my AD assassins and ADC's.

EoN might be broken however it exists therefore it cannot be ignored.

And hexdrinker and it's uppgrade maw are primarely in my personal opinion, best in the early midgame. A zed Rushing hexdrinker is very hard to deal with for some mages. Goes for other AD assassins as well.

And the reason i state mages need more armor is simple. Lethality.

What does lethality do? At later lvls it practically reduces you armor by 1 point for each lethality point. And you can stack up to around 60 with runes. Mages all tend to have low base resistances, so when a AD assassin jumps that the mage literally dies in a heartbeat without Zhonya. And even with zhonya you still die extremely fast in the later lvls due to the assassin gaining more AD. This would be at least helped a lot by a AP item that gives around 20-30 armor. Mages would still be squishy not but Q-R dead by talon squishy.

And you are listing health items that are fairly niche pick, only a few are using anything besides item 3116 and item 3001 but how does abyssal help at all vs lethality? And you take so damm much damage that building a little health doesn't even affect anything. Liandry is also a item that only 3-4 champions can actually use well, you need a dot to make good use of it.

And why should a AD champion that oneshots need armor? To survive being oneshot by other lethality users? That sounds like a great thing.... except all non lethality ADCs and fighters will become fairly useless with a handful of exceptions. Which is currently happening.

And then some argue that tanks counter lethality well, except you can stack last whisper item and black cleaver ontop of your lethality.

With that a 300 armor melee high scaling target now has 80-90 left which is like a cloth armor in addition to his base armor. Now the tanks is garbage which is reflected very well in the current state of the game. And god forbid you have any less armor....

And perhaps you are right, health might be good against lethality. Except you can't actually stack health unless playing a fighter or a tank.

A normal mage, say Orianna for one will if aiming for good damage and kiting go for a build like item 3020 item 3165 item 3089 item 3135 item 3157 item 3116 ( not necessarily in that order)

I know that if zhonya is on CD then Ori get's literally 3 shot by talon using Q-R-AA. Even through her barrier.

Then for a more unusual mage let's name Ryze.

He can build a ton of items and do well! Except he´s busted still in need of a rework but he exists so sure, a good ryze can manage.

But how many others can do as well? Tell me a mage or two that stands a reasonable chances at even surviving a Talon using item 3142 item 3814 item 3147 item 3139 item 3071 item 3111 . He´ll just walk through the CC and oneshot the mage upon gapclosing. Epic outplays.

And yes, i am salty as hell because this happened to me. Guy literally "outplayed" me by jumping over a wall, taking my first hit with his EoA and then cleansing my CC before pretty much oneshotting me.

And this happened vs Talon, kha6 and rengar. People have mentioned Quinn just going E-AA-Q-AA and killing them before they can trade back too.

Current state of the game is not good, not good at all.

DepártFeb 20, 20173 votes

If you can't position well enough to not die to an assassin, you have to sacrifice your optimal build for more of these defensive items, even if they're not the best with your champion.

That's just how the game works, AP champions have equal if not more defensive options than AD champions, with one of them being Zhonya's which is one of the most impactful items in the game.

ThefrostyvikingFeb 20, 20171 votes

{quoted}

If you can't position well enough to not die to an assassin, you have to sacrifice your optimal build for more of these defensive items, even if they're not the best with your champion.

That's just how the game works, AP champions have equal if not more defensive options than AD champions, with one of them being Zhonya's which is one of the most impactful items in the game

Man that is one of the things i am saying, positioning doesnt matter much when a talon jumps over a wall and goes invisible before going Q-AA on your ass and oneshotting you. And the defensive "options" that mages have as you refer to it is range and zhonya, however both those are fairly pointless if the opponent comes running in with the nearly same movepspeed as a yi ulting and then goes invisisble or just kills you before you can even active the Zhonya. And both rengar and kha6 are capable of achieving this as well altho through slightly different means.

I am a former plat that got there by playing fairly mixed but mainly ADC, my positioning was good by most people standards. I had a 6 -1 win/loss ratio with trist under a time she was considered bad.,...then i abused Ashe a lot as well.

However if i try to play either of those now i die instantly if they gapclose even once. never have league been punsihing players that arent using a specific build or a particular bunch of champions so hard and it's reflected in the current stat of the game as well.

In korea they pretty much only playing lethality champs and only banning them too, maybe 1 AP to keep the enemy from just building 5 thornmails. Riot balance at it's finest.

And even here in backwater EU low mmr normals i am feeling it, just some days or a wekk ago i played Ashe out of nostalgia and i was doing fairly well but not great. The enemy team had a Rengar however i avoided him and warded to stay safe and that worked fairly well. The rest of my team was winning quite hard though if i recall but rengar was even with me at least.

Then later i grouped with the others and we pushed bot. Suddenly Rengar jumps out by himself into the middle of my team and literally twos hot me before i even managed to flash and my support´s exhaust activated after i died too. Then he got stunlocked and died but i am fairly certain that he's not supposed to be able to do that.

I mean, i died from full health in 1,2 seconds in the middle of my team vs a rengar that wasn't even fed. All he had was lethality.

And people everywhere are noticing this, any lethality user that plays the champ decently is now a god instead of just good. That is a huge leap and not one that is good for the game's health.

DepártFeb 21, 20171 votes

Positioning absolutely matters, I'm sorry if you feel it doesn't but the reality is you're not playing well enough and that there are plenty of ways to deal with assassins. You just have to play safer and always assume they are looking to kill you.

ThefrostyvikingFeb 21, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Positioning absolutely matters, I'm sorry if you feel it doesn't but the reality is you're not playing well enough and that there are plenty of ways to deal with assassins. You just have to play safer and always assume they are looking to kill you.

I always assume that, however i don't think it's alright that they start oneshotting so damm quickly and snowball so super hard. And i´ve had plenty of cases when i died in the middle of my team before anyone could even react.

Really it's no wonder the Koreans are only playing lethality users, a few supports and a handful of other champs that are strong early such as Elise.

TeCoolMageFeb 21, 20171 votes

Fun fact: The less armour you have, the more worth you get out of each point of armour (the % damage reduction falls off for tanks unless they have a tank steroid). Because of this, the first item with resistances always gives the largest power spike.

AP champions, while I agree need more armour options (and that zhonya's active should be removed or changed), aren't doing as terrible as you're making it out as. The way they scale in damage is different from AD champions.

They cap out on damage against squishies where any more AP is sort of overkill in a practical sense where AP champs usually use a single spell rotation per enemy, while AD assassins have to aim to kill in less than a spell rotation due to range and CC limitations so they build more glass cannon, and ADCs can get overkill damage if the state of crit or lethality (like right now) is off and their sustained damage becomes burst, if burst is their niche or if they're far ahead.

Against tanks, AD assassins don't really get much of a chance either way to kill the tank but they build damage anyway to chunk them down a bit, ADCs rely on building full damage the same way AD assassins do so against squishies, because compared to mages they have limited CC and range. AP champs, however, play a bit of a game of attrition, chunking down the tank and disengaging over multiple spell rotations, so while they can continue to build AP and continue to scale by lessening the amount of spell rotations and time needed to kill a tank, it's not necessary unless there's some very extreme conditions like 2k gold leads or an extended 3 minute fight until OOM.

So that leaves us with 3 things to consider:

The first tank item bought is very powerful
AP champions 'cap out' on damage against squishy champs, as any more is overkill one-shotting
AP champions can chunk down tanks over time while ADCs don't have the tools to 1v1 over a large period of time due to range and low disengage making fights very unforgiving when dealing with tank CC and base damage.

AP champions can afford a single tank item and still be very effective. Buy frozen heart 3rd or 4th item with the components a bit earlier against Vayne. Try to get banshee's veil against amumu. Don't be afraid to take ninja tabi over sorcerer's shoes.

ThefrostyvikingFeb 21, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Fun fact: The less armour you have, the more worth you get out of each point of armour (the % damage reduction falls off for tanks unless they have a tank steroid). Because of this, the first item with resistances always gives the largest power spike.

I am aware of this, so an item with 15-25 more armor would prevent the cheese oneshots that a lot of lethality users are pulling currently. But the fact that there is no such thing is causing issue's.

AP champions, while I agree need more armour options (and that zhonya's active should be removed or changed), aren't doing as terrible as you're making it out as. The way they scale in damage is different from AD champions.

The active is fine i think altho frustrating for some, it's great vs say Zed, fizz. brand. ziggs or kata.

They cap out on damage against squishies where any more AP is sort of overkill in a practical sense where AP champs usually use a single spell rotation per enemy, while AD assassins have to aim to kill in less than a spell rotation due to range and CC limitations so they build more glass cannon, and ADCs can get overkill damage if the state of crit or lethality (like right now) is off and their sustained damage becomes burst, if burst is their niche or if they're far ahead.

Here i really disagree, the only squishies that die that fast are other mages and ADC's that don't build any MR. Everyone else have tools and items to make them able to survive. And most assassins using lethality can currently kill most target's that aren't slippery or tanky enough to survive the basic rotation from the assassin. And crit ADC's are too slow in scaling and only impact something like 1 outa 5 games by getting fed somehow.

Against tanks, AD assassins don't really get much of a chance either way to kill the tank but they build damage anyway to chunk them down a bit, ADCs rely on building full damage the same way AD assassins do so against squishies, because compared to mages they have limited CC and range. AP champs, however, play a bit of a game of attrition, chunking down the tank and disengaging over multiple spell rotations, so while they can continue to build AP and continue to scale by lessening the amount of spell rotations and time needed to kill a tank, it's not necessary unless there's some very extreme conditions like 2k gold leads or an extended 3 minute fight until OOM.

As a mage i rarely dealt with tanks honestly, you could usually avoid them by good positioning and damage was often fine so i had no issue with tank-mage interactions. As a assassin however i was often able to just walk in and kill the enemy botlane following the tank before he even realized then either kill him or just run away. This i could not do before.

So that leaves us with 3 things to consider:

The first tank item bought is very powerful

AP champions 'cap out' on damage against squishy champs, as any more is overkill one-shotting

AP champions can chunk down tanks over time while ADCs don't have the tools to 1v1 over a large period of time due to range and low disengage making fights very unforgiving when dealing with tank CC and base damage.

Most squishies have build that by nearly default have magic resist build in so that much is rarely an issue unless the mage get fed. ADC's can use item 3046 item 3139 and/ or if needed item 3026 or item 3053 . Mages for resistance and survival purpose's only have item 3157 a item 3001 .

AP champions can afford a single tank item and still be very effective. Buy frozen heart 3rd or 4th item with the components a bit earlier against Vayne. Try to get banshee's veil against amumu. Don't be afraid to take ninja tabi over sorcerer's shoes.

What? Are you only playing Syndra or ryze? No other mages has the scaling and built in power to do something like build a huge defense item. Not to mention that little armor won't do much of anything against vayne so late into the game. Rather just stack more damage to ensure she´ll consider her approach very,very carefully. And banshee....is quite good sometimes. I do use it. But my issue was assassins and against them this item won't help much.

As for ninja tabi as a mage....you can't really, sure it will help you survive a bit early but you´ll lose too much damage for it. The assassin will most likely lose a lot of kill pressure but they gain lane dominance since you can't kill them either. And then they will roam. And with 2 kills lead the ninja tabi is no longer enough. This might seem contradictory to my statement that just a little more armor was needed however that is under the assumption that you don't lose anything as important as magic pen, that stat is far too good. I can easily give up CDR or health instead.

TeCoolMageFeb 21, 20171 votes

You don't lose any noticeable amount of damage from sorcerer's shoes once the enemy buys 1 MR item. Flat magic pen isn't as good as people hype it to be simply because it's a rare stat. 30 base MR + 50 from maw = 80

1/1.8=0.55 15 mpen 1/(1.8-0.15)=1/1.65=0.60 (1/1.65)/(1/1.8)=1.09 9% damage increase.

Meanwhile ninja tabi gives 30 armour. It increases your armour more than sorc shoes decreases their MR to boot, and the fact it's favourable for you (you have low armour therefore that 30 armour is worth more), while MPen is favourable for them (you spent a ton of money on a stat that relies on them having no MR, and they do have MR) doesn't help either. This isn't even considering the easier build path and auto attack damage reduction

And I've gone 1 tank item on Veigar, Anivia, Xerath, Vel'koz and Annie.

Frozen heart reduces attack speed and gives a huge amount of armour. This single 90 armour item is enough to negate the 50 lethality from 3 lethality items combined.

And if the assassin roams, just shove the lane. Even then, just don't upgrade boots until later on. You were complaining about talon one shotting you late game, they're not going to do that before your first item unless you fed them 10 kills in 2 minutes. It's not like you were confirmed to kill them anyway in laning phase so they'd roam either way.

Void staff is key to killing squishies. It might seem like a deceptively anti-tank item like LW but the fact it affects base MR too gives an instant free 10 MPen. And it becomes 28 (!) MPen at 80 MR. Void staff exists to punish any sort of MR purchase while LW is only effective against armour stacking

Finally, keep in mind that mages get 10-20 free armour over ADCs as they're ahead by 2 levels due to bot lane exp. They also get to build RoA, and 2 levels is around 200 hp.

ThefrostyvikingFeb 21, 20171 votes

{quoted}

You don't lose any noticeable amount of damage from sorcerer's shoes once the enemy buys 1 MR item. Flat magic pen isn't as good as people hype it to be simply because it's a rare stat. 30 base MR + 50 from maw = 80

1/1.8=0.55 15 mpen 1/(1.8-0.15)=1/1.65=0.60 (1/1.65)/(1/1.8)=1.09 9% damage increase.

Sorc however is something you can gain early and it's used to counter stuff like hexdrinker rush. Most assassins who build it tend to just leave the hexdrinker sitting because they don't need anything more than it because their opponent will go for basic boots then morello rush which for the assassin causes the one hexdrinker to be great. However a pair of sorc boots negats this issue a lot. You can still fight for lane dominance with this.

Meanwhile ninja tabi gives 30 armour. It increases your armour more than sorc shoes decreases their MR to boot, and the fact it's favourable for you (you have low armour therefore that 30 armour is worth more), while MPen is favourable for them (you spent a ton of money on a stat that relies on them having no MR, and they do have MR) doesn't help either. This isn't even considering the easier build path and auto attack damage reduction

And believe it or not but i do notice a huge difference between having sorc boots and not having them, there has been a lot of debate on this however i am fairly certain that the current pro's seem to do this as well. My conclusion on that simply that i don't really know however if the pro's are anything to go by then they seem to think that if you are to die with sorc boots and zhonya then you´ll die anyway and as such magic pen is better for the times when fighting.

And I've gone 1 tank item on Veigar, Anivia, Xerath, Vel'koz and Annie.

Frozen heart reduces attack speed and gives a huge amount of armour. This single 90 armour item is enough to negate the 50 lethality from 3 lethality items combined.

I am a bit suprised you're even playing Veig, vel koz or xerath..... none of those should actually work currently just looking at the higher elo's and the champions played there.

And indeed frozen heart is great. However the item is awful on a mage as i said. You can't afford to buy this as a competent mage and it's negated extremely hard by lethaltiy + armor shred stacking. If 200 armor darius can't survive teamfights ( saw a video on this ) then i doubt you should be able to do either.

And if the assassin roams, just shove the lane. Even then, just don't upgrade boots until later on. You were complaining about talon one shotting you late game, they're not going to do that before your first item unless you fed them 10 kills in 2 minutes. It's not like you were confirmed to kill them anyway in laning phase so they'd roam either way.

Are you....really playing the same game as the rest of us? Mages have shitty pushing early , they can burn all their mana on minions but towers won't really budge, not even Anivia can do it well pre 6.

And even post 6 if you shove the wave to the tower what are you gona do? Hit the tower with autos that deal like 50 damage a few times then back off? While the opponent gains 2 kills and snowballs....this is something i did back when i was silver and it was a bad idea back then too.

Void staff is key to killing squishies. It might seem like a deceptively anti-tank item like LW but the fact it affects base MR too gives an instant free 10 MPen. And it becomes 28 (!) MPen at 80 MR. Void staff exists to punish any sort of MR purchase while LW is only effective against armour stac

Made to punish low Mr? No, it was made to give mages the ability to hurt tanks at the time it came out. It's old and outdated and wasn't changed along with last whisper to counter MR stacking for one reason or another.

And it's inferior to a item 3151 if they have less than 100 MR in total. For someone playing anivia you don't seem to know her core items well.

Finally, keep in mind that mages get 10-20 free armour over ADCs as they're ahead by 2 levels due to bot lane exp. They also get to build RoA, and 2 levels is around 200 hp.

oh god this statement.... 2 lvls really? It's closer 1 lvl if neither lane feeds or snowballs. However due to how often both lanes snowball or feed the difference's tend to be striking, recent example i saw was a lvl 11 syndra vs opponent lvl 8 jinx.

As for the armor statement, it's around 12 with 2 lvls above and 6 with one.

And the ROA statement, LOL. How many mages actually build Roa nowadays? Besides Lissandra and Anivia that is. That item is awful for most because they have been balanced to need CDR and and more AP. Building this on a Ahri or a lux is like asking to lose control of lane completely if the two opponents are equal in skill.

Looking at all your statements i found it very strange, it was like you were playing a different far more forgiving game. Then i checked your rank and well ....Bronze last season and current season as well. With a bit of skill and luck you might make it to silver or even gold?

Listen, i apologize but you and i are simply not playing on the same levels of the game, i am a former plati, the smallest mistake of my game can cost the entire game. I cannot afford to give away any kills or pass over any damage like you suggest for my opponents will screw me over if i do. Come back once you made it to plati in around 110 games like i did.

Now granted i did play for a longer time and i tested the waters first but i didn't express my opinions like truth showcasing ignorance across the internet. Please refer from presenting idea's like facts when you don't even know the subject discussed.

TeCoolMageFeb 22, 20171 votes

Sorc however is something you can gain early and it's used to counter stuff like hexdrinker rush. Most assassins who build it tend to just leave the hexdrinker sitting because they don't need anything more than it because their opponent will go for basic boots then morello rush which for the assassin causes the one hexdrinker to be great. However a pair of sorc boots negats this issue a lot. You can still fight for lane dominance with this.

oh my god. SORCERER'S SHOES DO NOT COUNTER MR

MR counters sorc. The more MR they have the worse it gets, whether it's 30 from items or 80. Its purpose is to punish 30 MR champs who sacrifice Maw for a full damage item, HP or outright % damage reduction like PD or having the support get knight's vow.

Made to punish low Mr? No, it was made to give mages the ability to hurt tanks at the time it came out. It's old and outdated and wasn't changed along with last whisper to counter MR stacking for one reason or another.

And it's inferior to a if they have less than 100 MR in total. For someone playing anivia you don't seem to know her core items well.

Wrong. It's inferior if they have less than 43 MR.

And I get Liandry's almost every game, I've done the math and believe it or not, MPen isn't what makes it a good item. 80 AP + the passive does. Haunting guise being an early item power spike with both MPen and HP before the ADC (but after the AD mid) gets hexdrinker is a different case.

Are you....really playing the same game as the rest of us? Mages have shitty pushing early , they can burn all their mana on minions but towers won't really budge, not even Anivia can do it well pre 6.

And even post 6 if you shove the wave to the tower what are you gona do? Hit the tower with autos that deal like 50 damage a few times then back off? While the opponent gains 2 kills and snowballs....this is something i did back when i was silver and it was a bad idea back then too.

You're joking right? Do you know what happens when minions go to the enemy tower? They die. The gold disappears. The EXP also disappears. A kill is worth around 1-1.5 waves, and if you're responsible with your mana and not constantly spamming abilities you won't run out. If you can't handle your mana, play Vel or Azir, they have the most mana efficient push, or go play DoTA 2 as any hero for a few days and learn to value your resources. Shoving isn't about the tower until the ADC comes to seige or unless you're playing someone who can take them down early like Ziggs. Shove the wave, get gold, they miss gold to compensate for their roaming, you're both even. The difference is that the assassin took a risk for a possible failed gank where they end up losing potential gold, while you just pushed the wave and got the same amount they'd get from getting kills. In exchange, the assassin put bot or top behind, but that's the point of taking risks and if you think you should be able to negate an assassin's strategy for half the effort and a bit of mana while they lose HP, time, and their energy/mana too (unless they're resourceless), then that's your problem.

I am a bit suprised you're even playing Veig, vel koz or xerath..... none of those should actually work currently just looking at the higher elo's and the champions played there.

And indeed frozen heart is great. However the item is awful on a mage as i said. You can't afford to buy this as a competent mage and it's negated extremely hard by lethaltiy + armor shred stacking. If 200 armor darius can't survive teamfights ( saw a video on this ) then i doubt you should be able to do either.

Frozen heart is not negated by lethality. Lethality is negated by frozen heart. It takes 3 lethality items to get 50 lethality, so even at level 18 that single armour item negates 3 damage items and still has armour to spare.

And I've seen videos of poppy surviving a fight for 2+ minutes against draven, that doesn't mean all poppys can survive 2+ minutes against draven. I've also seen Darius survive for super long periods of time in videos.

If you think AD assassins are OP, then just play them in ranked. Just don't go for Yasuo, or an outright broken champ like Rengar to say that all AD assassins are broken afterwards.

ZettoFeb 21, 20171 votes

Mages are not supposed to survive being attacked by assassins. If they get near you, it is your fault for letting them do so. Also since everyone wants to whine about EoN some more, I will once again point out that if you waste your cc on the spellshield, when you have other abilities that proc that shield, then that is also your fault.

ThefrostyvikingFeb 21, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Mages are not supposed to survive being attacked by assassins. If they get near you, it is your fault for letting them do so.

Dude ._. I've written it out 2 times now i think, you can't avoid them. They have a ton of movespeed, almost twice that of a normal mage, they jump over walls and they go invisible. Most of the time you´ll have no idea that they are there before you die.

Also since everyone wants to whine about EoN some more, I will once again point out that if you waste your cc on the spellshield, when you have other abilities that proc that shield, then that is also your fault.

And i literally wrote this out earlier.

I wrote that i playing Orianna vs a talon had a case where he jumped in near me, i blew his spellshield with my Q and then ulted and he just QSS'ed right through it and killed me instantly as in 1,5 seconds with R-Q and that was a "outplay". That could have happened with Syndra or Ahri as well that in Syndra's case talon would probably die to her ulti after she died to his.

Oh and if you wonder if we were standing still, no i ran the entire time but ghostblade does not allow for escapes for slow mages.

And the worst part? Both Kha6 and rengar could have done the same, Quinn too altho she's a hybrid rather than full on assassin.

This boils down to a very simple issue, it's not alright that assassins can facetank and just walk through stuff. That's not how they are supposed to work, hell they are played like super mobile bringers of instant death.

The idea of the assassin rework was to open up for counter play and this has failed splendidly for all but a few, if you are too blind to see reality then alright i won't press it much.

But please do keep in mind that the only champs played in Korea are pretty much lethality users, some supports and a handful of champs that are strong early and pretty much nothing else. Korea has always been first in finding new metas and using them and they are also among or even the best assassin players across all servers.

So do tell me, do you think it's alright that assassins can facetank and just walk through a mages only tools for safety, range and zoning? In the past it used to be that assassins had to dodge or somehow outplay a mage to kill them and now it's just run in like a dumbass and anyone besides syndra dies instantly barely having hurt the assassin. Except ahri who can actually run away.

Acheron16Feb 22, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Well lets see, lets go ahead and take wits end out because that item barely works on any champion and is a waste of a slot.

QSS resistances are relatively meaningless in a 4+ item scenario and is all about the removal of CC.

That leaves us with EoN which is pretty strong right now(mainly because of the spellshield and not the MR), and hexdrinker/maw which offer incredibly weak damage stats in exchange for an anti burst AP shield and some stats when the shield pops.

EoN is broken and is a large contributor to the lethality meta, hexdrinker and maw is severely outclassed by it. You will rarely see both items unless against an extremely AP heavy team.

Now we get to my favorite part, I so often see people bring up every MR item that has any sort of offensive stats on it and compare that to Zhonya's as the only armor item and say "You have all this mr and we only have this armor!1!1!"

You seem to be forgetting the ridiculous amount of other hybrid items AP classes are offered. . I know these items aren't amazing choices on some AP champions all the time, but neither is maw or wits end, so we won't be accepting that argument.

All of these items have significant defense stats, all without giving up much damage or other utilities.

AD champions have no AD/armor items, do you know why? Because it's not good for game balancing.

AP champions build more health as their defensive stat, AD champions build more resistances as their defensive stat.

That's how the game is balanced out, health is also coincidentally a very good stat against lethality while anything under 180 armor isn't.

Mages complain a lot about ADCs or assassins killing them and having MR options to mitigate their damage but always seem to forget: -Magic Resist doesn't scale by itself except on a couple of champions -They usually have both range, CC and damage in their kits, and occasionally also have %damage -Most of their items have AP+Health (AKA the non-specific defense stat) -Have high impact abilities and their damage is usually frontloaded

Some items are introduced and make some champions broken? OP, please nerf because mages are no longer the OP class that has everything except tankyness.

TeCoolMageFeb 20, 201710 votes

item 3091 isn't even AD loool

ThefrostyvikingFeb 20, 20171 votes

{quoted}

isn't even AD loool

It is ad, Shyvana, Kog maw, kled and Yi are pretty much the only ones who can actually use it among the AD champs. And among the AP we have Kayle .

Altho most opt not to build it because the enemy team need to have a lot of magic DPS rather than burst to justify building it. However it's common on current kog and yi mains use it as well if building guinsoo.

SukishooFeb 20, 20174 votes

But it's not. It's an Attack Speed MR Item. No where does that say AD.

ThefrostyvikingFeb 20, 20171 votes

{quoted}

But it's not. It's an Attack Speed MR Item. No where does that say AD.

Alright,alright its not AD altho it's used by a handful of AD champions and it's viable ,it's an existing option.

Having options is the difference between being able to fight and being a sitting duck.

5000000000000000Feb 20, 20173 votes

It's not for AD champs, it's for AS champs

ThefrostyvikingFeb 20, 20171 votes

{quoted}

It's not for AD champs, it's for AS champs

Is Yi a AS champion? Yi who stacks crit and AD? He can use it just fine as can shyv. And thinking about it Xin zhao should be able to use Wits end as well.

Kog is more of a AS champ like kayle but that's them.

5000000000000000Feb 20, 20173 votes

If Yi is going crit build, he's not gonna build Wit's End. He's gonna focus on AD and crit chance. Attack speed just comes with crit chance, as well as his ultimate. If Yi is going attack speed (on-hit) build, then he may go for a Wit's End. Same with Xin Zhao. Shyvanna builds one or two damage items and goes tanky, and rarely builds (or can afford to build) Wit's End.

SithesisLordFeb 20, 20176 votes

It´s on-hit, not AD. There's a very clear difference.

ThefrostyvikingFeb 20, 20171 votes

{quoted}

It´s on-hit, not AD. There's a very clear difference.

Alright it's not AD altho it's only regularly used by few AD champs it's uncommon. However the choice still exists and it's viable.

Having choices is the difference between being able to fight back and sitting there nothing.

TotalJerkFeb 20, 20172 votes

It is almost exclusively used by champions that stack onhits. No champion has a build where item 3814 or item 3156 are interchangeable with item 3091

ThefrostyvikingFeb 20, 20173 votes

{quoted}

It is almost exclusively used by champions that stack onhits. No champion has a build where or are interchangeable with

Xin zhao can switch item 3156 and item 3091 around.

TotalJerkFeb 21, 20172 votes

In the same build?

sobi999Feb 20, 20173 votes

{quoted}

There doesn't have to be an AD-AP equal for every item.

AP has Zhonya's, AD has QSS.

Also, if a QSS is really that necessary for you there's nothing stopping you from buying it. You can sit on a QSS for majority of games and not make it to the point where you need to sell it as a mage or ap assassin.

Lets have a deal. Why not we swap the QSS and you take the active of zhonya? Imo who do you think you're fooling?

DepártFeb 21, 20173 votes

I'm pretty sure that would benefit ADCs heavily, that allows them to survive assassination attempts if no one is there to save them. Good carry players very rarely get caught by CC later in the game, QSS isn't even a common item for AD anymore unless against malzahar or warwick.

What you're not seeing is the power of Zhonya's is gated behind the decision making and positioning of the player, it's one of the most impactful items if not the most impactful if you use it right.

Of course you're going to be a sitting duck if you Zhonya's in a bad spot with no one nearby to help you.

ModCaptainMårvelousFeb 20, 20172 votes

Can I just say this is the ultimate?

A master/challenger (can't tell from the badge, sorry) explaining why there doesn't need to be a case. Several people telling him/her why he is wrong despite being not as good at League.

RavenMagusFeb 20, 20171 votes

To be fair, he's also an ADC main, so he might be biased.

Personally, I'd take Edge of Night or an anti-phys Maw over Zhonya's simply because they don't have any drawbacks and Zhonya's does.

DepártFeb 21, 20171 votes

What about being an adc main makes it seem biased?

Zhonya's only drawback is misusing it and ending up in a spot where you're just a sitting duck.

RavenMagusFeb 21, 20172 votes

Neither Edge of Night nor Maw of Malmortius or even QSS have that drawback, though. If you misuse one of those, the worst that happens is that it goes on cooldown. Zhonya's will actively kill you if you use it wrong.

Not counting, of course, that there are quite a few counters to the active itself even when used well. Zhonya's is always a one-way trip to the fountain if an enemy Caitlyn is anywhere nearby, just as an example.

Of course, I'm not saying that Zhonya's is absolutely terrible. It's really amazing against champions with highly telegraphed burst ultimates, like Zed or Lux. But it is situational because it has high risk.

The AD equivalents don't have high risk. They are pure reward.

SwiftKitten88Feb 21, 20172 votes

{quoted}

There doesn't have to be an AD-AP equal for every item.

AP has Zhonya's, AD has QSS.

Also, if a QSS is really that necessary for you there's nothing stopping you from buying it. You can sit on a QSS for majority of games and not make it to the point where you need to sell it as a mage or ap assassin.

this is bullshit.. first we have you cant get an AP item 3155 / item 3156 because u have item 3157 then its you cant get an ap item 3139 becuase u have

and now it is you cant get an AP item 3814 because you have item 3157

I'm sorry but THAT EXCUSE IS BULLSHIT!!!

you cant fucking use that argument to defend MULTIPLE items.

IF YOU GET THREE, WE GET THREE!!!

SalronFeb 20, 201713 votes

So we're getting an AD Zhonyas too then Yes?

Mandang0Feb 20, 201738 votes

Sure, right after mages get AP edge and AP maw and AP lifesteal.

This isn't an "AP needs an equivalent to everything as" argument (which you'd still be on the wrong side of), it's asking for AP to get decent access to a mechanic (upgrade) that's been very important recently, and it's asking at a time when the item offering is pretty imbalanced between ad/mr items and AP/armor items.

CatastropFeb 20, 201738 votes

{quoted}

AP lifesteal.

You just opened some very deep wounds. Very salty, very deep wounds.

TeCoolMageFeb 20, 20172 votes

poor poor vlad and his SV stacking

Credit NinjaFeb 20, 20173 votes

{quoted}

poor poor vlad and his SV stacking

I remember when he straight up stacked gunblade before lifesteal and spell vamp became unique. good times.

RavenMagusFeb 20, 20173 votes

RIP 5 gunblade Jungle Akali and the 1200+ point heal you got just from smiting anything.

Anu3isIIFeb 20, 201715 votes

Grievous wounds? :3

CatastropFeb 20, 20173 votes

Lol, well played.

TheMinezFeb 20, 20172 votes

I still run spellvamp quints on Singed vs difficult lanes giving me a total of 9%.

Earl EulrichFeb 20, 20173 votes

if you rate the active so highly just build a zonias on your ad champions...just like many mages nowadays are forced to get a qss. You won´t do that? guess Zonias active really has too many drawbacks, unlike QSS.

FTWolfFeb 20, 20171 votes

No mage gets qss lol

Could not careFeb 20, 20174 votes

{quoted}

No mage gets qss lol

It happened in Worlds and NA LCS, so... invalid argument?

The active is just too good even now, when the rest of the stats are garbage for APs.

Earl EulrichFeb 20, 201713 votes

Quite the opposite, it needs to be removed and the game balanced accordingly.

It´s just bullshit design that Malzahar currently forces everyone to spend 1,3k gold for qss but then turns absolutly useless, kinda like Zed had been in S3. It also keeps people from playing proactive and adds to a more passive league where the team that actually takes action and wastes abilities on an qss user will most likly end up losing.

TargonFeb 20, 201713 votes

I think there needs to be at least one other AP/Armor item.

AD itemization is too good right now which is why full AD compositions are able to thrive when item 3142 item 3147 item 3814 shred pretty much everyone in the early game and squishies in the late game, and item 3071 item 3036 item 3033 shred any tanks in the mid-late game. And if there is an AP threat on the enemy team (usually only at most one), then they're easily counter-built with a few people buying Edge of Night (anti-poke), Mercurial Scimitar (anti-CC), and Maw of Malmortius (anti-burst).