A case for Karthus, our Deathsinger

CHHO3··76 votes·3,280 views
Patch 5.24 notes

TL;DR:

  • Mathematically, the wall of pain nerfs are huge.
  • Sleepers seem OP mostly cause we are better trained to face the common bunch.
  • And Karthus' weakness is not simply due to his immobility/squishiness.

As an avid Karthus player I'd really appreciate if people from the balancing team could shed light on their process and recent decisions.

(I can't help but imagine Scarizard (sorry >.>) and others playing a game where Karthus went on a rampage and hyper-carried the game before the nerfs)

Alright, I'm about to put forward not the numbers, but the feeling of what has changed since the nerfs. Wall of pain was a unique spell in the game. It creates a passable wall that shreds the enemies' MR and movespeed for five seconds. The enemies recovered their lost MS over the duration, and it felt like a linear ramp down slow before the nerfs.

The ability meant a lot to the team making Karth seem appealing to be picked. Karthus' iconic wall of pain is still the backbone/glue holding his character together, it offers amazing utility for a team such as:

  • zone control
  • face checking/vision
  • catching enemies
  • Immensely effective in thwarting tower dives or advancing enemies

The wall used to allow a good Karthus to hold off multiple enemies trying to take his turret for multiple waves, solo. It made him stand up to other mages despite a relatively slow wave-clear (think Ahri, Viktor, Xerath).


The inertia behind the nerf was to slightly reduce the effectiveness of his catching potential, but it indirectly also reduced his effectiveness to defend his lane turrets, putting a dent in his notoriously safe laning phase. Karthus' safe laning phase is what pro's like Faker and Froggen associate with him about when they debated that a skilled Karthus should beat a skilled Leblanc.

Karthus' weak early game is very unique, in that he decides not to be a threat to his enemies early on because of his chosen build path and farm reliance. That is how he was weak. Alternatively you could chose item 3174 first item followed by a item 3116 and be a lane bully, trading late game power due to a small mana pool and lower AP. However, now his safe laning identity feels like an illusion since he is much easier to dive without reliable defensive cc.

Karthus' uniqueness here was that weakness is not = simply squishy/immobile.

Now for the numbers.

Here's the slow amount comparison, at the **end **of each second from cast:

Old W, rank II: 40% - 30% - 20% - 10% - 0%

New W, rank V: 40% - 30% - 20% - 10% - 0%

Old W, rank V: 64% - 48% - 32% - 16% - 0%

As is evident from the "ramp" of the slow, the nerf is so massive it feels like playing Karthus with only 2 points in your wall [zombie-brand-facepalm] . Seems very undeserved.

If you have the time, here's a philosophical bit on his strength:

The patch notes said "Wall of Pain’s slow now decays", which could have been a miscommunication/lack of knowledge. It is a lesser known fact that the slow used to decay even before the nerfs.

This lack of knowledge has strangely been one of Karthus' strengths. Sleeper champions tend to bring a bit of surprise to the game due to unfamiliarity. The amount of damage on Lay waste is beautifully rewarding if you critically strike.

  • On a slightly related note, I love the fact that you, the player, make your Q critically strike through calculated aim, not random chance. It requires a veteran to aim those intricately on a squishy in a team-fight sandwiched between peelers/minions.

This, his passive and his ultimate are the surprises that often catch people off-guard.

Here's a perfect example from EU LCS that caught Rekkles and the casters off-guard. Rekkles held on to his summoner 21 perhaps thinking he would survive.

When we play against a champion often, we learn what their potential "catch-range" is. For example while kiting away from a fed Yasuo down your lane you'd know to not run straight through your minions for he can sweep thru the minions to you, on the other hand while kiting a Blitzcrank you'd rather run through your minions.

Similarly if Karthus had a high enough pick rate people would learn to anticipate his high damage and respectably long range Q, W, and R. This would, I believe, decrease Karthus' win rate and his effectiveness by a little, taking away his surprise factor.


In no way am I suggesting that Rito hates Karthus. They put so much love into his VU that it set standards for the ones to follow! He was a balanced champion whose kit aged like a fine wine into the new meta.

Perhaps Karthus' foremost identity is "highest DPS in the league", but he has more depth to his play than just that, a lot more.

Thank you for taking the time to read this, been lurking on reddit and the boards for years, and as I see patch notes and PBE cycles go by with Karthus staying silent, I had to speak up.

EDIT: cleaning up some typos/formatting. Thx again!

14 Comments

V The Support V12 votes

Like this post!

Perhaps (hopefully), he will receive a light pass when Riot implements the immobile mage update this year. In some of his numbers or through the introduction of new/revamped items.

Until then... Kamakazi or Commander Karthus.

macromite4 votes

get rid of the or and you understnd how i play karthus. flash initate into pentakill.

CHHO31 votes

lol or lucky afk Pentas [slayer-pantheon-popcorn]

Bedl44m3 votes

im really hoping he is included here...

CHHO32 votes

Right. It was said before that he won't be receiving any major changes. I'm hoping we at least get the wall nerf reverted, or at least make the wall such that it still slows enemies advancing towards Karthus by the old full values.

KING OF MASKS6 votes

{quoted}

He was a balanced champion whose kit aged like a fine wine into the new meta.

Astonishingly well said. I played Karthus occasionally back around the time of Season 2, but let him fall out of my champion pool for a while until recently getting him up to level 5 mastery. It's phenomenal how well he's held up, and how much new unlife they breathed into him with the VU and updated lore. Such a venerable champion really doesn't deserve this sort of indelicate treatment.

If rito doesn't address this I'm gonna call the League Department of Veterans Affairs and file a complaint.

Sunya UwU4 votes

Good Post,

I always felt like immobile mages usually have a type of cc/offensive/defensive ability they fall back on in dire times, Xerath has a stun, Lux with a snare for 2 targets, Morgana with a snare

It just feels like Karthus doesn't have a offensive/defensive cc ability ever since they nerfed his wall

Wall nerf doesn't make sense since the boots of swiftness meta right now

Patch v5.22

Boots of swiftness Total Cost reduced from 1000--->800 gold MS increased from 60--->65

At the time not many people started building the item

Patch v5.24

Karthus Wall Nerf where the slow reduces after 1 second

The karthus wall nerf wasn't neccessary when so many people are picking up boots of swiftness at the time it reduces effectiveness of slows by 25%

The wall feels like a useless ability with boots of swiftness being the dominant choice of boots right now

Edit:Messy Post by me forgive me if its confusing >< its the middle of the night mercy

Paroe4 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Lonely Nidalee,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jgmhTBd8,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-01-23T07:55:41.286+0000) The wall feels like a useless ability with boots of swiftness being the dominant choice of boots right now

Riot likes to do compound nerfs. they knew full well that nerfing merc treads into uselessness people would choose to go swifties over mobi boots.

CHHO31 votes

Yes, I could live without the catch potential as long as the defensive aspect of the wall could be preserved..

And thank you so much for reading thoroughly!

Xelvi1 votes

{quoted}

Yes, I could live without the catch potential as long as the defensive aspect of the wall could be preserved..

And thank you so much for reading thoroughly!

He was nerfed because of Deathfire Touch because apparently he was doing too much damage, but in Riot's world doing too much damage doesn't mean nerf the damage output, it means nerf vital utility instead!!111!!

It's seriously stupid, and he joins the list of champs who have been nerfed because of a certain keystone/mastery/item aka Sejuani who aren't rebuffed after the problematic thing gets nerfed.

They are, instead, left to wallow in mediocrity.

Rundus13 votes

My friend, who is a mage main and loves Karthus, got super ticked after that nerf and has stopped playing him so he can play his "big 6" mages before their reworks. Every time I ask about Karthus, he just keeps telling me he's going to wait for a buff or item that can help out a little (he was never the best Karthus positionally, so he really needed that wall to get him to his rylais 2nd item).

LadyRenly2 votes

he seems ok in the jungle

RyzeRework1 votes

The reason the mages got nerfed is because they remained super safe for their lack of mobility karthus wall swain w aniva slow was even nerfed the fact these mages even tho immobile were hard to gank is why these nerfs happened

MEMEME6701 votes

Two things.

  1. If you have a weak early game, but you're safe and can easily farm and defend your tower, I don't think you really have a weak early game. You just aren't strong. Vayne has a weak early game. She gets easily shoved out by any lane bully and has a stupidly hard time farming when she does.

  2. Karthus seems to be, to me, probably somewhat unhealthy. He's just super annoying to play against. Not only does he force you into this minigame of 'dodge lay waste every 1 second or take 400 damage', and he doesn't necessarily need to work very hard to get ahead of you in lane, his allies just need to set up his ult. Because of this, I think a nerf that makes him unable to (as you say) 'defend his tower against multiple opponents alone' is completely fair.

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