Riot, you aren't letting this Phantom Dancer iteration through PBE right...?

S2018D·Jan 29, 2019·70 votes·23,146 views

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-2nRmcZVXmkg/XEuMy0rhoDI/AAAAAAABOR8/D40L9yk2fiAvz8oY_GmXZ439pfKxOA_iACLcBGAs/s1600/phantom.png

I get that you want to change Phantom Dancer, although I do not agree with the direction it's being done. However, giving PD a shield that starts off at a flat 240 and scales up to 600 is just absolutely bonkers. Sure the game has a lot of excess damage currently, but that means that the damage itself needs to be cut down, and not go make the polar opposite completely overloaded. This is just ridiculous.

158 Comments

SaezioJan 29, 201950 votes

Maybe if we stopped creating busted ass items for a moment and instead kept clean items with 1 passive or 1 active at a time we would understand what champions are balanced and which not. Seriously stop making the game complex. I remember back in season 2 the items were much simpler Yet it felt like I have a million different choices. Fast forward to season 9 and there is 1 or 2 ways to play any champion itemwise AND runewise, or if you don't you end up at a huge deficit.

iiGazeiiJan 29, 201917 votes

90 second cooldown that isn't affected by active item CDR and the shield only lasts 2 seconds.

It protects the ADC against burst damage on a similar cooldown as an ult, meaning it won't be up in every encounter.

Lil Homie bustaJan 29, 20193 votes

I am more annoyed about the low attack speed. 30% is less than item 3006 's.

AhrisJan 29, 20196 votes

{quoted}

90 second cooldown that isn't affected by active item CDR and the shield only lasts 2 seconds.

It protects the ADC against burst damage on a similar cooldown as an ult, meaning it won't be up in every encounter.

burst champs are supposed to counter adc though

iiGazeiiJan 30, 20196 votes

And they still will. For the 90 seconds between uses, they'll be able to kill marksmen with impunity. Marksmen will just have an option now that lets them occasionally not-die-instantly. Burst champs just need to wait for the marksman to overstep so they can pop the shield without committing for it, or wait for someone else to pop it before going in to finish the kill.

The new PD offers less attack speed and doesn't have an offensive unique passive. They're sacrificing a bit of damage to get this defensive bonus.

hpp3Jan 30, 20192 votes

For the 90 seconds between uses, they'll be able to kill marksmen with impunity.

With what ult? Many mages rely on their ults to burst an ADC unless they're stupidly fed, and those ult CDs are often longer than 90s.

Burst champs just need to wait for the marksman to overstep so they can pop the shield without committing for it

Putting someone at 30% HP doesn't happen "without committing for it". We're not talking about poking Yasuo to remove his shield.

AhrisJan 30, 20192 votes

{quoted}

And they still will. For the 90 seconds between uses, they'll be able to kill marksmen with impunity. Marksmen will just have an option now that lets them occasionally not-die-instantly. Burst champs just need to wait for the marksman to overstep so they can pop the shield without committing for it, or wait for someone else to pop it before going in to finish the kill.

The new PD offers less attack speed and doesn't have an offensive unique passive. They're sacrificing a bit of damage to get this defensive bonus.

You say "just wait" but team fights happen instantly and no marksman will be walking around waiting to get picked by a burst mage.

Also the logic of burst mages to "just wait" until someone else breaking it is a messed up logic. That is like saying an entire class of champs are not viable as a class during that time frame by something that ADC players cannot even express their skill by like timing the barrer correctly.

The stats it gives are decent stats, it is a defensive item, I agree, but the cd should be increased to around 120 seconds to increase the risk of having the sheild gone.

LTK KoRoJan 30, 20192 votes

the problem is that fights usually don't break more often than said 90 secs. Flash is an abusable CD, but this is not.

If enemy team will have a brain then there's no way to counter this iteration of PD

AlzonJan 29, 201917 votes

12% damage reduction is a 13.6% increase in effective HP. 2,000 HP, with zero resistances after pen becomes 2,273 effective HP. That 273 damage is a lot less than 600, so this is a buff to glass cannon champions who buy PD.

A melee carry who has 3k HP and 30 resistances after pen gets their effective HP increased from 3900 to 4432. The difference of 532 is less than the 780 effective shield strength of the new Phantom Dancer, so it’s still a pretty sizeable buff.

However, there are some caveats here on both sides. The new Phantom Dancer can have its shield waited out. It doesn’t require an autoattack to proc. It also applies to incoming damage from ALL enemy champs, not just one.

So the new Phantom Dancer is now an anti-burst item rather than a pure stat stick. Its power is more visible and indeed much stronger in most modern scenarios, but that power comes at the cost of outplayability by only activating for short windows. It also has a low HP threshold, meaning the defensive function does nothing to prevent the player from getting low.

xDogMeatxJan 29, 20194 votes

its a 2ndry guardian angel vs assassins in other words minus the dying. then theres deaths dance if you wish.

AlzonJan 29, 20192 votes

I believe it has negative synergy with Death’s Dance now, since the point of the shield is to pile all the damage that you’d take otherwise onto it.

xDogMeatxJan 29, 20195 votes

another question how does it work vs garen ult? does it activate on damage so it dont kill (the shield takes the garen ult not the hp) or at a certain threshold?

Critmaster GarenJan 29, 20192 votes

{quoted}

well if you owe the deaths dance hp it takes it out on the shield so the damage isnt lethal while still maintaining lifesteal. another question how does it work vs garen ult? does it activate on damage so it dont kill or at a certain threshold?

it probably works like item 3156 shield in that it automatically absorbs the damage.

thats honestly ridiculous. the only way to deal with shit like Vayne is to try and burst her before she bursts you.

like how are you ever supposed to beat that champion when she has a burst shield like that. most champions only get into range to fight her once before she shits on them.

you only get one shot to burst a lot of marksmen. if they take that away, then they need to remove their carry potential aswell.

xDogMeatxJan 29, 20192 votes

to be fair there is alot of point and click attacks that null her (sylas enhanced autos with e ) malazhar ult. or plain hard poke (ziggs enhanced auto with lichbane) that make her scared to lane.

Critmaster GarenJan 29, 20192 votes

{quoted}

to be fair there is alot of point and click attacks that null her (sylas enhanced autos with e ) malazhar ult. or plain hard poke (ziggs enhanced auto with lichbane) that make her scared to lane.

by mages. so what? melee champions are just collectively fucked?

its already difficult enough as it is to fight certain marksmen with certain melee champions.

now its just not going to be possible anymore?

xDogMeatxJan 29, 20192 votes

actually there are few melee who can beat her (excluding assassins). jax/sylas/riven/xin basically any hard diver or fighter that has a slow or stun cc into it. now if we include her team setup thats a different story. then it requires a team effort to surgically slice a team. doesnt matter if its adc or tank alike if it is the thing to keep vayne alive thats essential (thresh example) he goes 1st then comes her now if another person steps up and becomes annoying you remove them as clean as possible. but if vayne comes in you go ALL OUT ON HER ziggs xerath velkoz (massive aoe ults at once) she wont be able to react or outplay.

Critmaster GarenJan 29, 20193 votes

{quoted}

actually there are few melee who can beat her (excluding assassins). jax/sylas/riven/xin basically any hard diver or fighter that has a slow or stun cc into it.

yes, a few. not most of them. most of them just get shit on by her.

like Tristana

how do you fight these champions if you cant burst them? they have more range, theyre more mobile, they demolish you from range with their items.

it doesnt matter that they deal like 10% less damage, if you never get into position to fight them.

if they want marksmen to be more resilient, fine. then take away their damage. no more carrying games, but they survive easy.

xDogMeatxJan 29, 20192 votes

sylas i know counters her hard no matter her range ('takes her ult earlier' e up to her by surprise auto e then auto q w auto ignite then trist ult )

Critmaster GarenJan 29, 20192 votes

{quoted}

sylas i know counters her hard no matter her range ('takes her ult earlier' e up to her by surprise auto e then auto q w auto ignite then trist ult )

sylas has sub 40% winrate. he doesnt counter shit right now.

i dont care if there are single champions who might still be able to fight them. there is a whole roster of melee champions who has no options against marksmen with a burst shield.

like how are you ever going to fight vayne or tristana on champions like garen, yorick, or others? its already difficult enough as it is, and the only winable play you can make is a flash burst play when theyre away from their support for a second.

that becomes literally impossible. how do you burst a vayne or tristana with a fucking 600 (or even just 350) burst shield before they disengage and then destroy you? not even Renekton can do that.

if vayne gets this item, i want her w changed into a short duration active on a 20 second cooldown. lol.

xDogMeatxJan 29, 20192 votes

how to you see winrates? and 2ndly your right she is too bursty vs juggernaut type champs.

Critmaster GarenJan 29, 20192 votes

{quoted}

how to you see winrates? and 2ndly your right she is too bursty vs juggernaut type champs.

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Sylas/

Chembaron YamadaJan 30, 20192 votes

There is still going on a learning curve, his winrate is rising. He probably won't end up very bad when he has settled some time.

RaiyzaJan 29, 201915 votes

Vayne Vayne Vayne Vayne Vayne Vayne Vayne Vayne Vayne

Critmaster GarenJan 29, 201914 votes

600? what the shit?

wasnt it supposed to be 350 like item 3156 ? even 350 is already a lot considering that its a lot of shielding against all types of damage.

its basically 600 health on an adc item. what?

BestPudgeNAJan 30, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jZaHAQ7j,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2019-01-29T21:18:00.037+0000)

600? what the shit?

wasnt it supposed to be 350 like ? even 350 is already a lot considering that its a lot of shielding against all types of damage.

its basically 600 health on an adc item. what?

600 health on the only Zeal Item that wasn't supposed to be for ADCs but rather the crit melee users Yasuo Tryndamere Gangplank MasterYi

Critmaster GarenJan 30, 20197 votes

{quoted}

600 health on the only Zeal Item that wasn't supposed to be for ADCs but rather the crit melee users

then maybe they should give it different values for melee and range.

otherwise i assume that the rioter who came up with this is just nuts or heavily biased.

AxzariousJan 30, 20195 votes

I'm going to lean towards Biased. I have no idea why they don't just make a new Zeal item and leave PD as is.

Daddy AntsJan 29, 201913 votes

600 damage at level 18 is like 1 spell from a Mage/Assassin/Bruiser or 1 AA from a Marksman

Blackfin97Jan 29, 20193 votes

That's a pretty big shield still and will be very dangerous in the laning phase.

What a I'm most concerned about is Yasuo. If he picks this as his first/second item he will get to go all out every 90 secs once his own shield is up.

GayFluffyUnicornJan 29, 20195 votes

Just wait for people picking this together with a janna, lulu, karma.

LTK KoRoJan 30, 20192 votes

Back in the days adcs bought steraks only and they were suddenly unburstable by anyone, even without janna or lulu. 600 dmg shield on any hypercarry will break them and give us ardent meta again, woo

AntiSJWJan 29, 201912 votes

garbo item change

PrystJan 29, 201911 votes

I played starting seasons of the game too and it seemed so much better as far as champion and item choices. Game feels more an attempt to sell certain skins, pushing e-sports views and attracting a younger child player base than anything else for the past few years its sad. Cant help but feel like its exactly what ghostcrawler did to wow and he will ruin this game by catering to a casual audience under 12 yrs old who could care less about balance or items.

Genghis KhatJan 29, 20198 votes

[deleted]

lykkelasJan 29, 201929 votes

this shares the lifeline passive with steraks, means that will go on cd if this one is activated.

IG ZikoJan 29, 20199 votes

{quoted}

shield already has a shield but now he has a massive shield to protect him

DUDE YASUO WILL HAVE 3 SHIELDS IF HE BUILDS THIS + IE + STERAKS

shield that absorbs one hit of anything. shield that pops during mid health and shield that pops up before dying. this is sad...

This and Steraks have the same passive.

Shifted SocietyJan 30, 20191 votes

{quoted}

This and Steraks have the same passive.

No they don't

SaezioJan 30, 20198 votes

They do, it's called lifeline. Same as Maw passive. You can't stack em You pick 1 of the 3 and it's actually a drawback if you buy both because sterak passive is way better but pd will put it on CD i guess if activated.

mack9112Jan 29, 20193 votes

But they got rid of the damage reduction on it ...

MimrJan 29, 20192 votes

Steraks' Gage shields for a LOT more if you build for it.

BârdJan 29, 201910 votes

Steraks is a juggernaut item.

PD is an ADC item.

HungryAngry2SPPJan 29, 20192 votes

Yasuo Passive+ item 3046 + item 3053 + item 3080 passive. Good luck killing him now

Luther LansfeldJan 29, 201911 votes

It doesn't work with sterak's

HungryAngry2SPPJan 30, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Luther Lansfeld,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jZaHAQ7j,comment-id=00130000,timestamp=2019-01-29T22:35:02.368+0000)

It doesn't work with sterak's

What do you mean? Are those the same (unique) passives but on different items?

Iota ThetaJan 30, 20194 votes

{quoted}

What do you mean? Are those the same (unique) passives but on different items?

Even if on two different items, if the unique passives share a name, the effects won’t stack. The Sheen items are a similar situation, where Iceborn Guantlet, Lich, and Trinity don’t stack damage (i think i remember where they had a weird interaction, like the strongest of the damage procs combined with the slow field, but still)

ModCaptainMårvelousJan 30, 20192 votes

It's happening boys.

"ADC 20XX LUL" for the third year in a row.

nelogisJan 30, 20191 votes

?????????????????????????????????

Ardent meta was late season 7 early season 8 what are you talking about

ADCs were gods

PopcornBunniJan 30, 20194 votes

{quoted}

?????????????????????????????????

Ardent meta was late season 7 early season 8 what are you talking about

ADCs were gods

And yet the adc community still hollered that their class wasn't OP enough being ranged burst-per-second assassins between item 3095 item 3031 or item 3087 interactions along side %health damage, nearly 50% armor shred, and mixed damage output.

"But adc early 2017 lul," yeah, when games were dominated by lethality build Varus Jhin MissFortune one-shotting the entire cast the instant they were visible on screen, or from off screen in Varus's case.