Executioners call offers a bit... too much?

Minute Rice·May 8, 2017·43 votes·3,618 views

I know ad based champs need a healing cut counter part... But, really? This thing is active on the first hit.. Why not? Mundo can't counter act that thing. Once you start a fight with your top laner.. It immediately puts you at a disadvantage. It's not even like he can itemize around that. That item, for 800g completely trashes an entire champion. If it were like Morrello's starting at a hp threshold that would at least be more consistent. But this item is brutally over powered in the right situations and the cost efficiency is god tier. Am I missing something here?

81 Comments

ArhkadianMay 9, 201720 votes

Legit if there isnt something keeping mundo in check, he will be out of control and close to unkillable.

Bradley DragonMay 9, 20174 votes

{quoted}

Legit if there isnt something keeping mundo in check, he will be out of control and close to unkillable.

yep 45% cdr and his ult is up fairly permanently

Big LincolnMay 9, 20171 votes

mundo is garbage and he'd be garbage even without executioner's right now

Mig89May 9, 20175 votes

He was played professionally this year. Says more than a lot of champs atm.

Big LincolnMay 9, 20171 votes

Did he win? Was he actually a contributing factor to his team's win?

need to know the whole story

MobezMay 9, 20176 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFaXMspOYmk CLG vs Flyquest and yes he was a big reason that his team won. Got off to a lead and there wasn't much that Flyquest could do against him

Mig89May 9, 20174 votes

Im glad you found it because i thought it was a TSM game and couldnt find it. If i remember correctly, Mundo went where he pleased. Rumble was useless to stop him.

Alesya369May 9, 20171 votes

Just use your brain and time your theoretical execall GW active correctly... currently it is just too braindead and too cheap.

AkeneroMay 8, 201710 votes

It used to give crit :D

RalanrMay 9, 20176 votes

Mundo can't counter act that thing

Mundo can't do much in general because of how simplistic his kit is.

Dude needs a rework cause all he is, is a big ball of stats.

k wìxMay 8, 20174 votes

Mundo is in dire need of a rework. His ultimate needs to reduce or negate the effects of 'Grevious Wounds' for him to be viable. Sorry but he's just an old relic. a LOT of the new tank items are great for him though - I still dont think he's viable because he brings no CC to the table, at the end of the day.

I don't think Executioners calling is in a bad spot.

5000000000000000May 9, 20173 votes

Most juggernauts have little to no CC, though. Darius has a pull and slow, Garen has a silence, Nasus has a slow, Illaoi has a situational slow, and Mundo has a slow. Out of these, Mundo has the lowest CD on CC, too.

k wìxMay 9, 20171 votes

I'm not sure I agree with your first statement. Nasus, Darius, Illaoi, Trundle, Udyr, Volibear, Skarner, & Olaf all have respectable CC that's either on par with or more impacting than Mundo. **You also casually glaze over the fact that Mundo has some of the least reliable CC in the game. **

The thing about Mundo, is that his cleavers are insanely easy to juke - it's not reliable. This is one of the primary reasons you dont see him played. Furthermore, it's not really just about CC - its about Zone and Area control. Mundo doesn't have that in anyway. He's just a random brute that runs around trying to damage the person who is the most fragile. He can't really do anything in an organized teamfight, short of charging at a target and start whacking at them.

My original point still stands, he's not viable at this stage - he needs a big, big rework. **Sejuani currently exceeds his damage, survivability, AND CC. There is never a reason to mundo unless you like him personally. **

5000000000000000May 9, 20172 votes

I don't disagree that he's weak, but I don't think lack of CC is a reason why. Also I'm pretty sure Mundo's CC isn't that unreliable. It's a single target, but the projectile is fairly quick (1850 projectile speed) and low cooldown (4 second base CD, with 2 second slow). Compare this to Olaf, whose Q is slower (1550 speed), although with lower cooldown when picking up the axes to chase. The slow strength is weaker until the 5th rank in Undertow, as well (Infected cleavers have 40% slow at all ranks). Do you think the hitbox is too small, maybe? Or is it the range?

Skarner has a lot of CC, but he's also a tank hybrid.

k wìxMay 9, 20171 votes

Hitbox is probably an issue - I wouldn't really know without seeing, I think the range is a big deal. Olaf's seem to travel a lot farther. The timing is really, really predictable too, it's obvious when he's going to throw one. **Also, Olafs goes through minions, this is a really important thing. **

Main takeaway is that I rarely see someone get chased down by Mundo, (Actually, I don't even see him get played anymore) its just too easy to juke his cleavers.

Hundreds of ways to buff Mundo :D I think CC would be an excellent place to start, but regardless, I really hope we see a rework for him soon.

Volibear BossMay 9, 20174 votes

That is true for mundo, but some champions are just completly broken without it as counter, swain as example.

Project omenMay 9, 20172 votes

I 've played a lot of games with Swain and I think he can still be fought without grievous wounds. Unless you're fighting him 1 v 1 mid game close to your minion wave. Vladimir on the other hand has, in my opinion, the best healing in the game right now, hands down. Grievous wounds is a must buy against him.

Dynamiku EntryMay 9, 20174 votes

Weird I coulda swore Mundo had a 600 HP per5s regen

LeetriMay 9, 20174 votes

And yet I can't for the life of me convince any AD player to buy it when the enemy has Mundo, Swain, Soraka and Sona in ARAM. One game we were getting rolled so hard by the enemy Swain (he could solo our entire team) I bought it on an AP champion because the AD's on my team were just stacking attack speed. We couldn't even get him down low enough for my Morello's to kick in.

TyrekGoldenspearMay 9, 20173 votes

Yes it's too much. item 3070 Soraka

Rıots Bad ClientMay 9, 20173 votes

Would it it be possible. If it were to just remove 5% of healing. And could stack up to 5 times?

Project omenMay 9, 20171 votes

Hmm, that wouldn't work very well against Vladimir, since he heals for a huge amount pretty much instantly. However, it would be fair against Swain and Mundo.

Mig89May 9, 20173 votes

It'd work imo. Is it fair for one AA to negate his kit? I dont see anything wrong with an ADC having to hit him 5 times in order to fully utilitze the item. It'd make soraka a little more viable in higher ELOs

Rıots Bad ClientMay 9, 20171 votes

Well, again, the numbers are just sorta random. BUT Ignoring the numbers. you're saying it can be fair?

Like instead of 5% we can bump it up to 12% and stack it up to 3 times. in total a 36% healing reduction. ( I just picked random numbers)

But seeing the downvotes. I assume its not the way to do it.

VoidzillaMay 9, 20171 votes

I think this would actually be a good idea. item 3123 was supposed to be intended for marksmen, so it'd make sense that, in a roundabout way, it'd scale better with attack speed. It'd also mean that marksmen would actually have to work to get the most out of the item, instead of crippling one of the enemy's strengths with just one auto attack, similar to how mages with item 3165 have to work at their target before making full use of it.

Baka RedMay 10, 20171 votes

If Executioner is reduced 5% of healing per hit, stacking to up to 25%, what do you think would happen to the ADC attempting to get those stacks on Vlad? And what would a "max stacked" Vlad think of the new executioner wounds at max stacks? I think the ADC would get killed and Vlad would shrug the effect off. I get killed attempting to get that executioner hit on Vlad plenty of times even now. If I would only get 5% effect on him, I might not bother attempting that.

You do realize that you would pretty much nerf the item to the ground - an item that some people refuse to buy even when the enemy has more than one sustain champion on the opposite side (Swain/Mundo/Vlad/Soraka and etc) because they think it isn't strong enough. (I am not one of those people btw. If I am playing AD champion, I will buy it even for one sustain champion (ARAM only player) because if I don't, our team will lose. Sometimes I have to buy it for AP champions too, because the team ADCs won't take the hint and Morello would not make sense to buy (Nautilus for example))

"A lot of people" is subjective. A lot of people seem to be saying that system would suck too. Balancing things because "a lot of people" say one thing is usually not the smart think to do. You need rational thinking for that, not crowd mentality or "circle-jerk" (Is that the term that is used on these boards a lot?).

OP spoke of Mundo and Executioner. That is different scenario and stacking might work against him better, but it isn't that easy to balance the game. Ask Riot if it is easy. ;) You have to think the other permutations too.

Rıots Bad ClientMay 10, 20171 votes

Well, again. Numbers are very iffy. since there would be some testing to actually get a fair number. AND just to be clear I'm saying ALL physical damage applies the stack.

So champions like Zed can actually make use in a rotation.

SO lets say I changed the numbers so thats its more appealing to use or just help in lane, Because I think this would be more balanced.

Because we can go things like item 3123 reduce 8% healing that stacks up to 5 times. (total of 40%) (so its not appealing in early game, so champions like AaTrox and mundo can actually be useful) and then item 3033 (An obvious item you're not going to rush first into lane) can be Reduce healing by 15% that stacks up to 3 times (Total of 45%).

grievous wounds is 40%

Baka RedMay 10, 20171 votes

Are you saying that people should buy Executioner for Zed to fight Mundo and Vlad? I cannot see the sense in that. I thought Executioner was supposed to be used by autoattack based champions, not assassins. Therefore I believe your example might need some work.

I don't think your number change did really change that much in the scenario having ADC attempting to put the stacks on Vlad. Granted you can do a lot with proper number changes, but I am not going to do much math here since that is Riot's job. I just 'feel' the stacking system would nerf executioner too much - Vlad and other sustain tanks are scary without proper grievous wounds. Most ADCs won't stay alive long enough to shoot them many times (at least in environment with snowballs flying towards you), and you aren't supposed to use Zed to assassinate them I think.

Btw: You put up good numbers on the Executioner into Mortal Reminder upgrade btw. :) (Well, I still don't like the stacking idea, but that looks like proper way to do such system, if it is implemented.)

Rıots Bad ClientMay 10, 20171 votes

It wasn't ment to make zed fight tanks but more so Of a Zed making use of it against Draven that has 1 or more of these items. item 3072 item 3153 item 3812 item 3139

Its not to say that item 3123 is JUST for vlad, swain and mundo. but more so on others.

While yes, AGAinsT VLAD alone min a 1v1 situation as a adc isn't to reliable. But thats to say the same for item 3165 Like, getting vlad below 30%. The grievous wounds Should be a reward. and not a giving IMO.

How ever is vlad is a Huge issue. and you have 2 ad in your team like Talon mid and Jinx 2 of them can get it but its a bigger investment to help get it stacked. (I'll just say its capped at max stacks, and takes priority. so just because you got 2 doesn't mean -90% healing)

I just don't like the current state, because you can get item 3123 with item 3085 as Jinx and apply on an entire team with a lucky shot. and then it completely cripples Soraka with the -40% healing reduction.

BotifierMay 9, 20172 votes

Yet my adc won't buy it

Sire HippingtonMay 9, 20172 votes

The entire concept of GW is not that great, cause every sustained based champs needs to either be balanced as if GW was used and thus forces people into building those items, or he gets balanced as if there was no GW and is totaly screwed once someone gets it. It might work a bit better if it was implemented differently, but the current situation is pretty shitty. Low damage champs, who have the bigest isues dealing with sustain, have no GW options, The AD option has a 100% uptime with no conditions, and the AP option is the go to item of all mages anyway and also has a 100% uptime once you drop low enough.

If GW was tied to smaller windows and maybe actives so you need to put some thought into it, it might worke. But the current implementation is prettymuch 'healing is reduced by 40% if you fight other champions'

Alesya369May 9, 20171 votes

'healing is reduced by 40% if you fight other champions'

or if you are sniping as Jhin from afar... or if your Cait's Q has already passed through lane full of minions and your 4 allies... or if you get hit by Jinx's R from all over the map while you were at 100%hp... or if you get hit by random and lucky arrow from Ashe's W...

Unlucky47May 9, 20172 votes

Grevious wounds needs a buff tbh. It doesn't stop enough life steal on ad champions.

ChønklordMay 10, 20172 votes

#The game needs more items like executioner's calling, not less

There is too much "lifesteal creep" happening right now, when everyone and their mother buys things like

item 3153 item 3146 item 3812 item 3156 item 3072 item 3074 item 3065

and with enough DPS or champion's built-in mechanics, allow them to safely out-sustain whole teams and extreme bursts of damage thanks to increase in tankiness of tank items and ninja tabi's.

The only thing we have to counter the healing aspect of lifesteal is

item 3123 / item 3033 and item 3165

Rıots Bad ClientMay 10, 20171 votes

I think so too. however item 3165 feels fair. Because you are rewarded when you bring the enemy down to your passive goal.

Unlike item 3033 / item 3123 You're just rewarded for just right clicking them. Its way to rewarding. I think they could have a minor goal in build in them like item 3165 either by making it stack or just a small shitty minigame. just something to feel rewarding. Because summoner spell/abilities that have grievous wounds have a large cool down, or is their only utility move.

Also tanks need a grievous wound applier against ad's who stack life steal.

ForgiveColourMay 9, 20171 votes

If you lose to someone that wasted 800 gold to rush this item first its your fault

ProfirixMay 9, 20173 votes

Rushing this item against a Vlad, Soraka, Mundo, Swain, Aatrox is a viable strategy. You have to realize that you will lose trades with the enemy ADC, but you will be in a better position against the healing effects. Ultimately the team that builds EC will win over the team that does not.

ForgiveColourMay 9, 20171 votes

No lmao rushing ec gimps you more than it helps

ProfirixMay 9, 20172 votes

Against burst? Sure. But most of these champions are drain tanks that deal sustain damage. You reduce their healing by almost half. In a longer fight, you will win.

Alesya369May 9, 20172 votes

Rofl how is that a fucking waste if you use it to buy broken and overpowered item that will secure literally dozens of kills which are together worth way more than 800 gold.

ForgiveColourMay 9, 20171 votes

If you buy it on your first 800 gold you deserve to lose

Alesya369May 9, 20171 votes

Uh... how is killing your lane opponent over and over again going to make you lose???????

ForgiveColourMay 9, 20171 votes

gl killing your lane opponent over and over when you bought first item ec LUL

ThilmerMay 10, 20171 votes

{quoted}

If you buy it on your first 800 gold you deserve to lose

Except that against some champions, you buy it with your first 800 gold and automatically win the lane.

LuminierMay 9, 20171 votes

Yeah. If I'm playing Aatrox and the enemy buys item 3123 and item 3047 I'm going to have a REALLY tough time fighting them. It feels really cheap, and even more so if I am winning lane and they just buy those items and all of a sudden my chances of winning a fight vs them are way lower.

FourVsFiveMay 9, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Yeah. If I'm playing and the enemy buys and I'm going to have a REALLY tough time fighting them. It feels really cheap, and even more so if I am winning lane and they just buy those items and all of a sudden my chances of winning a fight vs them are way lower.

buying 1 item to completely shut down 1 champion from enemy team is not a good design. Be like having thorn mail do 80% dmg done back on attacker making adc useless.

Tobias BracknerMay 9, 20171 votes

I've found that new Aatrox doesn't sit in Bloodthirst like he used too. I get a lot of mileage out of using Bloodprice to force them to back away and then heal up with Bloodthrist while they are away from the wave.

ChønklordMay 10, 20172 votes

Aatrox is a horribly poor example case of "executioners is too strong", due to the fact that Aatrox as a champion has been nerfed/gutted and is in a horribly sad state right now.

Now if you were to somehow provide proof that someone like

Lucian with item 3153 item 3812 item 3046 item 3071 item 3026 item 3047

is somehow overly negatively affected just by item 3123 , then I will delete my league account.

Hint: you can't, because that champ with those items destroys everything, even executioner's calling item x3.

LuminierMay 10, 20171 votes

Aatrox's update was shitty at first, but subsequent patches have made him somewhat viable again. I'd say he's B tier.

Executioner's calling is way too strong for the cheapness and how easy it is to keep grevious wounds applied. I think it should stack like black cleaver (example: physical damage dealt deceases healing on the enemy champion by 10/20/30/40%). It completely shuts down certain champions, and there's absolutely nothing they can do about it.

0ctopulseJul 27, 20171 votes

It is, to my point of view, because hemorragy isn't enough to counter lifesteal or life regen damage dealers, while tanks or regenerating casters are hugely affected by this ... When there is an AD item to put hemorragy . Why does Riot put more hemorragy instead of nerfing ADs ? I believe there must be a way to reduce hemorragy by using a tank item (spiritual face, why not) so it could solve a bit of the problem. And this freakin 800 gold sh!t that can be bought by every AD brawler even if he would sold it later ONY to counter the top Mundo, Swain, Aatrox or anything like this should : a) non exist b) put only 1sec hemo (fair, look at the spiky armor) andd on autoattcks, not on physical damages (hello to Darius DOT that refreshes it everytime) ...