Twitch Poison While Leashing

Monsieur Ganja·Jun 4, 2015·44 votes·3,935 views

Hey hopefully someone in Riot sees this, or someone figures out I'm just playing the situation completely wrong, but I thought it would be beneficial to create a post about a frustrating occurrence that happened to me twice tonight.

While leashing gromp for my jungler, my poison killed it, giving me the exp and gold. The first game this happened I thought maybe I gave too hard of a leash, but the same thing happened in my second game when I gave a fairly light leash and asked the support to give a heavier one.

I was wondering if it was possible to give Twitch's poison the same treatment as Cinderhulk so that it leaves monsters' health at 1 hp, to ensure that someone doesn't steal valuable exp and gold from the jungler at their most vulnerable time.

56 Comments

LuggJun 4, 201519 votes

You just have to be more careful when giving a leash. I do it with Teemo all the time and I never get the kill because I know when to stop and let the poison do the work. That really is all there is to say.

AskformorenamesJun 4, 20152 votes

That's a different story. With teemo you can wait to level up E until you are going in lane - and actually you should do so as you provide much less damage than autoattacking until the last moment.

LlaniteJun 4, 20153 votes

The point is that, the poison doesn't last 1 hour and it's possible to time it appropriately.

LuggJun 4, 20151 votes

If the poison lasts that long, just do one or two AA and leave. That is all the damage the jungler needs.

LuggJun 4, 20152 votes

But that is the point I am making. I don't have to wait to level up E, I just give a smart leash.

Monsieur GanjaJun 4, 20151 votes

{quoted}

You just have to be more careful when giving a leash. I do it with Teemo all the time and I never get the kill because I know when to stop and let the poison do the work. That really is all there is to say.

But you don't have to take the poison with Teemo until after your leash while you're walking to lane (I'm not sure when you level it up, never played Teemo). And giving two immediate autos and backing off should be careful enough; that was enough to steal it in my most recent game.

LuggJun 4, 20151 votes

Yes, I don't have to take it, but it doesn't matter. I know how to leash with it. If 2 attacks is too many, just attack once and go to lane.

RIP Tahm KenchJun 5, 20151 votes

That's the exact kind of leash I hate as a jungler, you might as well just sit in river as a ward.

AbyssphereJun 5, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Yes, I don't have to take it, but it doesn't matter. I know how to leash with it. If 2 attacks is too many, just attack once and go to lane.

At this stage what you're suggesting is actively bad for your jungler though. Sure you can just attack once and head to lane so that you won't steal the camp but at that stage you're giving your jungler a really shit leash. If they did this change you'd be able to give your jungler several AAs on the creep, which is a flat improvement.

If your mastery of the champion allows you to give a leash of equivalent value to what would be given with changes of the nature suggested in the OP then you could say "This is unnecessary, just learn the champion more". But it's not the case - the knowledge of how Twitch's poisons work doesn't allow you to play around it while giving a good leash, it just necessitates giving a really bad leash. And that's not fun for the jungler.

LuggJun 6, 20151 votes

All you need to do is 1 hit it anyway, your support should be there leashing as well. Problem solved.

AbyssphereJun 6, 20151 votes

{quoted}

All you need to do is 1 hit it anyway, your support should be there leashing as well. Problem solved.

But it's not problem solved. Your whole point seems to be "Well it won't be a complete failure if you do this" and while that is very much correct, I'm not sure even you know why you're arguing the point anymore. You can avoid this stuff happening by being more careful but it'd still be a flat improvement to your leashing as people like Twitch if you didn't have to be prohibitively careful and there's no real prospect of it removing the skill of leashing with a DOT champion either. I can't see why "it's fine as it is" is a reason to argue against the OP.

Sure it's fine if you leash in the correct way. But it's not ideal, and the game should strive for ideal.

LuggJun 6, 20151 votes

I'm just saying that it is such a minor thing. Riot has MUCH bigger things it needs to fix in game before this.

While it might seem like a good QOL fix for Twitch, what happens when he wants to farm the jungle while his lane is pushed up? Wouldn't you want that poison working for that?

gubigubiJun 4, 201513 votes

Twitch It's mine. I licked it.

FluxBoundJun 4, 20153 votes

Twitch I demand a gromp!

NemeBroJun 4, 201512 votes

It might be similarly beneficial to give Darius' passive the same treatment. I've stolen my jungler's first camp more times than I'd like to admit as Darius. I haven't in a while, and I warn them that the leash will be very soft beforehand (literally two auto attacks), but still.

kJsJun 4, 20155 votes

While they're at it, make it stop at 1hp for every character that has a poison, except on the bLue, red, baron, and dragon large monsters.

Widder88Jun 4, 20155 votes

Twitch is played sometimes (8%) in the jungle. If the poison doesn't kill the monster, he takes more damage and the opponent has a better chance to steal the monster. If he wants to help the jungler, the jungler can kill the monster easily with smite.

NinjaFiferJun 4, 20155 votes

The problem is on Gromp and Krugs, you want to smite early becuase the buff is very important. I can see this hurting his jungle, but maybe they could throw something on where, if he has smite as a summoner, his poison can now kill it jungle creeps.

Vistha KaiJun 4, 20153 votes

Bullshit. If the poison(or any DoT passive for that matter) kills the monster it's exclusively jungler's fault. There is more than enough time for the effect to wear off after you Smite it or simply kill it with Smite.

Aych PiiJun 4, 20153 votes

You're the type of guy who blames the jungler for not ganking when he loses lane, aren't you? We're human too, you know. We take extra damage if we have to wait until the poison wears off to get it low (Completely nullifying the benefit of the leash) and smiting early for the buff really helps our clear time on those first camps (especially if someone gives us a soft leash because they're afraid their poison will steal it. How about that?). When a DoT effect steals our first camp, it's unfortunate, but it's not really anyone's fault. I'd advise players who have those effects to give softer leashes, and that's about it.

TerchioJun 4, 20151 votes

That's the price for getting help on jungle. It shouldn't be 100% necessary to leash, anyways, but assuming it is, losing one measly little stun or 10 + (10% bonus HP [from runes/masteries only]) damage over 3 seconds won't break you simply on Gromp or Krugs. Usually, the poison damage (from your ally) makes up for that, and if not, you get the rest on the tail end of your buff.

Monsieur GanjaJun 4, 20151 votes

{quoted}

That's the price for getting help on jungle. It shouldn't be 100% necessary to leash, anyways, but assuming it is, losing one measly little stun or 10 + (10% bonus HP [from runes/masteries only]) damage over 3 seconds won't break you simply on Gromp or Krugs. Usually, the poison damage (from your ally) makes up for that, and if not, you get the rest on the tail end of your buff.

Well they're not losing those, they get that immediately when they smite it. What they're losing is level 2 experience and gold that for some junglers is necessary to go back and buy their jungler item ASAP. I

PartholonianJun 5, 20151 votes

I think he means what you lose by smite securing instead of smiting immediately isn't that important. Not what you lose if you lose the mob to the laner altogether.

Monsieur GanjaJun 4, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Twitch is played sometimes (8%) in the jungle. If the poison doesn't kill the monster, he takes more damage and the opponent has a better chance to steal the monster. If he wants to help the jungler, the jungler can kill the monster easily with smite.

Cinderhulk, a jungler item has the effect that it leaves the monster at 1hp. While I understand Twitch is squisher and needs the extra damage, losing 1 dmg from your poison isn't going to make or break Twitch jungle. I'm not saying Twitch poison shouldn't work on jungler monsters, just that it shouldn't be able to kill jungler monsters.

Widder88Jun 5, 20151 votes

If the poison doesn't kill a jungle monster, Twitch will have to make an additional AA sometimes. In this time the monster can do an additional AA himself, and the opponent jungler has a better chance to secure the monster. In this season the jungle is already hard for Twitch. Please no nerfs!

And beside that it would make absolutely no sense, if the poison couldn't kill a jungle monster.

3TWarriorJun 4, 20153 votes

the stupid thing is, your jungler wasted their smite right away, didn't they? a good junlger will keep track of the monster's hp value and take it out when smite is guaranteed to kill it

UnlimitedNinja41Jun 4, 20152 votes

Yes, you could do that, but most people smite the monster right away so they can get the buff from the monster, so when you smite krugs right when they spawn and smite them, you get the basic attack stuns to stun the krugs, and the same with gromp

PartholonianJun 5, 20151 votes

As useful as that is in general, you don't really need it when you have a leash. Save your smite for securing when you have a DoT using ally, and the problem is solved.

Aych PiiJun 4, 201510 votes

We smite the first camp early to get the benefits of the smite buff for clearing that first camp, unless there's threat of an invade or we're getting a buff leashed instead of gromp or krugs.

TerchioJun 4, 20154 votes

Then... adapt. If you want that Krug/Gromp kill, but you want ally assistance, save everyone the headache and learn to simply save that Smite on poison passives. Twitch, Gangplank, Teemo, Fizz, and Darius, and that's about it. The DoT they provide more than make up for the lost buff usage, and you get the rest of your buff on the tail end, anyways.

Monsieur GanjaJun 4, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Then... adapt. If you want that Krug/Gromp kill, but you want ally assistance, save everyone the headache and learn to simply save that Smite on poison passives. Twitch, Gangplank, Teemo, Fizz, and Darius, and that's about it. The DoT they provide more than make up for the lost buff usage, and you get the rest of your buff on the tail end, anyways.

Yeah from now on I'll definitely tell people not to smite it immediately because of the poison.

AbyssphereJun 5, 20151 votes

{quoted}

the stupid thing is, your jungler wasted their smite right away, didn't they? a good junlger will keep track of the monster's hp value and take it out when smite is guaranteed to kill it

Actually a bad jungler will do that. Smite should be saved later on but if it's your first clear it is optimal to smite immediately unless you fear an invade. Getting Gromp's buff at the start of your fight with it will make it die a lot faster than smiting it at the end, saving you health and potions.

DeusVultJun 4, 20153 votes

While I understand what you are saying, IMO it comes down to your jungler making a bad call. Smite has an icon that shows you how much damage you are dealing, you should be watching the monster's HP bar.

And if your playing with a Twitch Teemo Darius Cassiopeia Singed etc, you should have the presence of mind to hold your smite until it can kill the monster so that this doesn't happen. Yes, I understand that smiting Gromp at the start helps kill him faster, but losing the exp and gold isnt worth it

Shield VillainJun 4, 20152 votes

Your jungler should just wait to smite until the end then. That would probably be the easiest way around it.

GundayMondayJun 4, 20152 votes

Jungle main here - Your jungler needs to save smite until they can use it to kill gromp. Yes your clear time will be 0.5s slower, but that makes it so that neither your friendly teammates ( Twitch ) or a late invade from the enemy team will deny you level 2. Definitely appreciate the OP's concern for us junglers, but I would rather have your late game poison securing baron/dragon if they randomly level up right when I smite!

Vistha KaiJun 4, 20151 votes

I always leave 5 stacks of Darius' passive on Gromp.

I already gave him such a good leash and he missed the Smite.

If I get it, it's jungler's fault.

Aych PiiJun 4, 20153 votes

Wow, dude. I bet that anti-teamwork start really helps your winrate.

Vistha KaiJun 4, 20151 votes

It does. I just won my lane thanks to level advantage and can carry that over to the mid game. On the other hand there is no guarantee my jungler will be of any use, especially if he can't even last hit a monster while dealing 4 times more damage than my passive.

CoolKnightSTJun 4, 20151 votes

That would hurt twitch camps steal by a lot. If you want to leash just don't level the ability until after the leach.

SvddenlyJun 4, 20156 votes

It's Twitch's passive...

He can't just say "I'm not gonna level it"

RedCycloneJun 5, 20151 votes

"I rely on the tiny dot provided by my passive to steal dragon and baron"

Yeah I also rely on my autoattacks as Sona to do the same

A change like this would not make Twitch any less playable

I Summons IJun 4, 20151 votes

Isn't it really your jungler's fault if that happens? I mean it's not hard to work around what 6 true damage?

killd0zerJun 4, 20151 votes

I the buff gets stolen by 6 damage per second or less, that 100% the junglers fault.

crunchymunchysJun 4, 20151 votes

no. people need to learn to smite to secure the kill on the camp. especially if you know the champ leashing you has a DoT. this is just plain bad jungling when you aren't securing the first camp with smite because people will come and steal it either as your team or as the enemy. Riot doesn't need to change any mechanics so that a jungle who isn't thinking can have an easier time. Now if you think only silver's and bronzes will do this, last night i stole gromp with my e passive on teemo against my plat jungler...

His GoatlinessJun 4, 20151 votes

Tell your jungler to use smite after if you're that worried about a potential 10 true damage stealing it.

lDontLiftIcarryJun 5, 20151 votes

your jungler is an idiot. lol

Try RC ColaJun 5, 20151 votes

If your jungler is really upset he can learn to play Shaco or other champs that don't need a leash

SoMNiaJun 5, 20151 votes

The jungler should save smite to secure the first camp if they get a leash or fear an invasion.
Everyone who felt the need to insult the jungler for not having done this can go die in a fire. Nobody needs that crap. Get over yourselves.

HorusEyeJun 5, 20151 votes

Teemo Darius Singed also has the same problem. You just have to know when you should stop hitting and let the DoT do the work. Otherwise, it could be your jungler's fault for not being aware of the poison/bleeds.

EggstealerJun 5, 20151 votes

This happened to me with Darius top and I didn't even say sorry, I just went and FB'd the enemy ryze in 1 wave and continued to go like 14/6. I just told him its smarter to save your smite to finish the monster. you never know when people go for silly invades