Chain CC (i think) needs a nerf

AC Eclipse7X·Mar 11, 2019·24 votes·10,962 views

OK, so i might be starting something a bit con traversal but i think that chain cc needs to be nerfed. There so many abilities now with the champion pool that you can have an all cc team and constantly root/snare/stun a champion indefinitely. That to me at least seems a bit unfair to solo queue people without a party. I dont know what fixes Riot could put in but i would be open to see this get some more discussion on it. Maybe list reasons to keep it or for a small window not a allow a champion to be cced after just being cced. I just want to start a discussion on the pros and cons of it. First post btw so let me have it lolz.

43 Comments

NevrankroatonMar 11, 201917 votes

You can't nerf CC without nerfing mobility. If you nerf mobility, you need to add compensation for some champions. Said compensations could open the gate to others issues, etc.

If a team effectively stunlock you, maybe you need to think your strategy differently.

OtterlyLostMar 11, 20191 votes

See I would agree except getting stunlocked is as easy as a morgana throws a random Q over the wall from fog of war. Or a Maokai point and click snares you, even. Then you're just trapped in an endless loop of free, easy to land CC and a lot of the "skill" of these abilities(aiming, predicting, threading the needle, etc) is immediately eliminated.

CC locks are especially egregious when playing on smaller maps like Twisted Treeline or ARAM; there's less room to move and your forced into a teamfight situation where CC always rules.

I wish that CC had diminishing returns of some kind. Like if you were hit with a morgana Q, Moakai's snare would have a reduced duration, and then so would the lux's Q that followed up.

Or even if they just took time to trim superfluous CDR from the game. There is so much CDR in the game that mid game, many champions have 30 to 40%, allowing them to just perma fish with their CC abilities. The windows to punish CC champions for misplays with their CC has drastically reduced, which feels bad as a melee champion who wants to wait for big CDs to be blown before engaging.

When we are in a tank meta or a mage meta, the things that frustrate me as much if not more than the bulkiness or the burst is the fact that they have literally endless CC on top of that which requires you to play perfectly around because their CDs are pretty damn short.

Handy Sandy Mar 11, 20191 votes

if ur on twisted treeline there's less cc abilities on the map in the first place and aram is just aram i guess

if the whole enemy team is throwing all cc on one person then everyone else on your team is free to do whatever they want. melee champions either have enough mobility to avoid cc if played right Fizz MasterYi Zed Yasuo MonkeyKing or they are generally bulky enough to take a few hits without feeling too threatened Warwick Galio Garen Illaoi Nasus

there's also tactics they can use like flanking Ekko Gragas Udyr Trundle Skarner to avoid getting poked down or avoid a teamfight in the first place Tryndamere . Without cc lock, there's 0 way to deal with those bulky champions mentioned earlier because they have the sustain and damage to 1v5 unless glued into position. right now they can't because of all that cc, so they resort to other tactics like splitting bot and tping to baron. if cc lock wasn't as effective, what's stopping Nasus from coming down from top lane, grouping up with his team, and start stacking champions

OtterlyLostMar 11, 20191 votes

Or they throw CC on one person which sets up huge, teamwide CC for the rest of the team. Such as a Morgana Binding into an Amumu Bandage Toss followed by a team wide, AOE Amumu Ult.

Your post makes sense under the assumption that CC is usually only single target but in many cases, it is not. Amumu ult, Maokai Ult, Morgana Ult, Hecarim Ult, Neeko Ult and Snare, Lux binding, Zyra Snare and Ult... the list goes on. These affect multiple targets meaning that the problem of CC chain locking is still an issue.

As for dealing with bulky champions, giving diminishing returns for CC or taking away superfluous CDR would still allow CC to deal with these champions. It would just require champions with CC to actually be skillful and thoughtful with their abilities instead of just vomiting them out nonstop.

The Anivia OTPMar 12, 20191 votes

well you can change both Mordekaiser has neither , so he won't change and we all know the game is balanced around him

Z3SleeperMar 11, 20195 votes

[{quoted}](name=AC Eclipse7X,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=j5u0iuIH,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-03-11T04:23:25.814+0000)

OK, so i might be starting something a bit con traversal

AHAHAHAHA!!!

This really goes against common traversing methods I agree!

Horse GrenadesMar 11, 20193 votes

r/bone apple tea

ZackTheWaffleManMar 11, 20191 votes

This is the best one I've ever seen lmao

Original SinMar 12, 20191 votes

Beat me to it lol

CherysseMar 11, 20193 votes

item 3111 item 3053 summoner 1 item 3139 item 3140 item 3222 + 55% tenacity in runes. I don't know, I guess there are no options to fight CC.

wolviusMar 11, 20191 votes

{quoted}

+ 55% tenacity in runes. I don't know, I guess there are no options to fight CC.

item 3222 isn't very good the active seems to act like projectile, in that it has a travel time which make it feel clunky and awkward to use. Also I can't remember the last time i've seen it but thats coming from primarly aram.

The only problem is when its comes to short duration CC's, tenacity isn't that useful against such short durations as it reduces feck all.

JohnnyNeverSinsMar 11, 20191 votes

Tenacity is not useful,but your brain and skill is,learn to dodge.

wolviusMar 11, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Tenacity is not useful,but your brain and skill is,learn to dodge.

Tenacity is useful but far fewer cases than before, it works great against champs like morgana, naut, buffed chameleon E because they have long stuns but there is just so many micro-stuns like nunu W now which are irratating. Also ignoring how many knock-ups there are but tenacity shouldn't work against everything then we would just get the mundo buff because grievous wounds treatment.

Dodging is fine until you get clicked-on/walk on slow are/get hit by a slow when theirs so many slows thrown around now. (does khazix really need a 90% slow or ludens splashing from a minion procing rylaois slow)

Or they give champs like morgana up to 55% conditional movespeed (i know it was needed for against mobile shite) to help land R stun while forgeting about the champs that are immobile and were already dicked over before upping ease of effectiveness to deal with mobile crap........but i guess the cycle continues.

Honestly this game needs a unique stat/passive for immobile champs that reduces the duration of subsequent CC applied that is separate to tenacity.

reaper4042Mar 11, 20193 votes

It's not the cc, even 5 years ago cc was annoying, but you could still power through, now if you get hit by 1 thing, you'll die nearly instantly

Metal JannaMar 11, 20192 votes

I don't think it's the CC so much as the teamwork itself that's overpowered. Of course, teamwork SHOULD be ridiculously good in a team game. The problem is when you solo queue and get matched with 4 and 5 man premades who pick an all CC comp and dominate with constant well coordinated roams and ganks. It's impossible to outplay solo, and good luck forming an outplay strategy with your random teammates mid-match without voice chat. A normals solo/duo queue would be a nice solution.

Anu3isIIMar 11, 20191 votes

Higher Rank players would just go 1-3-1 to force the opponent to split, weakening their Teamfight composition.

Problem is that majority of playerbase doesn't really know how important are objectives and global pressure in general, so these tactics are new to them.

However, there are strategies to combat every team comp, even when it is well coordinated. It only matters if you force them to fight on your own terms and constantly have map awareness, which everyone should have no matter what.

20022012Mar 11, 20191 votes

Soloq is two-man premades at most. Also, the system is made in a way that you have either a two man premade on your team as well, or noticeably better players.

But then I noticed you were talking about NORMALS so I guess balancing logic is not very understandable for you lmao

Metal JannaMar 12, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Soloq is two-man premades at most.

Solo queue is when you queue up solo.

Also, the system is made in a way that you have either a two man premade on your team as well, or noticeably better players.

This is a myth.

But then I noticed you were talking about NORMALS so I guess balancing logic is not very understandable for you lmao

Nice boards rules violation.

20022012Mar 12, 20191 votes

Solo queue is when you queue up solo.

Ranked soloq (the thing soloq is means, not your stupid downgrade, since soloq is a queue, not a way of playing) allows duos to play as well.

This is a myth.

A myth confirmed empirically is a fact.

Nice boards rules violation.

How so?

Metal JannaMar 13, 20191 votes

{quoted} Ranked soloq (the thing soloq is means, not your stupid downgrade, since soloq is a queue, not a way of playing) allows duos to play as well.

I didn't say "soloq". Respond to what is actually said.

A myth confirmed empirically is a fact.

Empirically as in "someone has actually tested this"? Or "empirically" as in "i've confused anecdotes with evidence."? Because if the former, then you're lying. And if the latter, then you need to retake Statistics.

So which is it, ignorance or dishonesty?

20022012Mar 13, 20191 votes

I didn't say "soloq". Respond to what is actually said.

You mentioned solo queue, which is the same as solo q in the way thnx is the same as thanks. This is the most pathetic strawman accusation I've seen in my life.

Empirically as in "someone has actually tested this"? Or "empirically" as in "i've confused anecdotes with evidence."? Because if the former, then you're lying. And if the latter, then you need to retake Statistics.

Riot uses an MMR system which works like this. Also, I can provide a Rioter post from the early days of dynamic queue where it is explicitly said that matchmaking aims to equate the number and size of premades on each team. Empirically you can look at virtually every match info you have. I can take 100 arbitrarily chosen games and we can see the connection between premade frequency and size on both teams. I figure you're not worth it since you're a normal-game-only player so you're fairly disconnected with the state of the game and because you're obviously either a fairly new player who wasn't here when matchmaking that's currently in League was widely discussed or you're purposedly ignoring what Riot has already established as facts.

20022012Mar 11, 20192 votes

So you wanna nerf a mechanic that requires good timing because according to you it's too strong when played out perfectly? You have mechanisms to fight that, you know, they're called QSS and Cleanse. Or you could employ Silver+ tactics of waiting for the enemy to blow their CC ;)

BobaFlautistMar 11, 20192 votes

I've always liked the idea of something along the lines of "For each 1s you've been cc'ed, subsequent CC's are 10% shorter, additively. Slows instead slow for 5% less. This decays by 1% every .1 second uncc'd (consecutive or not) + another 1% every .1 consecutive second.

Pandemic PunchMar 11, 20191 votes

Not until there is a lid put on this garbage.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ieft4n3pHrM

SõnaMar 11, 20191 votes

Dota2 has long term CC, but they created items in order to help players getting out of situations, there are so many, many of them which had creative ideas and interactive gameplay. The only bad thing is that item costs were too high.

When I look back at League of legends, it has only Zhonya, being the most useful things in this game, and other life saving items are so crappy. You cannot hope for anything, except having a super intuition support that shields you, peels you, tanks for you. That's it.

SomeOneButNoOneMar 11, 20191 votes

item 3140 item 3222 summoner 1

Cleanse reducing incoming disables by 65% for the next 3 seconds.

Horse GrenadesMar 11, 20191 votes

MasterYi intensifies

LetMeAfkPlssMar 11, 20191 votes

play yi or tyrnd and you are officially a cc magnet lol anything that deals damage and moves generally

JohnnyNeverSinsMar 11, 20191 votes

Get better at the game and you'll realise that it's okay.

SchenixMar 11, 20191 votes

We're oversaturated with CC at this point, you can throw CC at people with practically 75% of the roster.

I more so believe there should be Tenacity item(s) that mitigate consecutive CC only (perhaps adding onto Adaptive Helm), but that would break pro play wide open. Even supports buy QSS or take Cleanse because it's just so intensive on locking someone down.

Plat HardstuckXDMar 11, 20191 votes

Maybe they could rework Quicksilver Sash to be a preventive CC item rather than a cleanse? Maybe be like a BKB(dota2) that prevents CC for 3-6 seconds.

BoltonatorMar 11, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Maybe they could rework Quicksilver Sash to be a preventive CC item rather than a cleanse? Maybe be like a BKB(dota2) that prevents CC for 3-6 seconds.

Congratulations, you have just nullified virtually any impact a Support would have in a teamfight since everyone will want a QSS late-game.

Plat HardstuckXDMar 11, 20191 votes

Just spit balling ideas.

AlzonMar 11, 20191 votes

The solution would be to just decrease the availability of CDR in the game, so a team that blows their cooldowns stunlocking one person will be vulnerable to retaliation from the other team for a more noticeable amount of time.

huhndogMar 11, 20191 votes

But then I wouldn't be able to play Zac now that tanks are dead

ZethroMar 11, 20191 votes

chain cc is how you synergize

nowuSimmiMar 11, 20191 votes

I don't think it's the cc thats the issue, I think it may be the fact that there is so much cdr available to let cc abilities, which should be an important cooldown to play around, be back up sooner than they should've been. People can get 25% CDR just from runes, so a mid laner that has their first lost chapter item already has everything they need to cap out cdr, so they can then get whatever they want.....which is why I see so many midlaners just rush deathcap second and then finish morellos third.

ESeTyRCMar 11, 20191 votes

Sure.

Right after low-risk high-reward champs get their mobility gutted.

ChizzahMar 11, 20191 votes

In SWTOR they nerfed hard CC by making it so each additional CC on a single champ is less effective than if used on a fresh target.

Meaning if champion A is hit with Morgana root it will last for the full duration but if Lux chains her after it would last X seconds less and if Neeko lands her root after that it will last for X seconds less to the point where if champion A survives it gets to the point where he is CC immune for X seconds.

Meanwhile if champ A is hit with Morgana root and champ B is hit with Lux root both champ A and B will be rooted for the full duration.

I'm not sure if this could work in a moba like LoL but it seems like a rather simple fix. Honestly though, if you get rooted or stunned you die eitherway. Any additional root or stun easily adds to the damage that will kill you.

The Bad TouchMar 12, 20191 votes

So many other games before league had this wonderful concept of either diminishing returns on chain CC (WoW for example) or games like DAoC where after being hit by a CC you were immune to that type of CC for an amount of time afterward.

The issue with Tenacity is that it's only meaningful for a few champs with built in CC reduction (mainly Garen) or champions that are both tanky enough to live through the shorter duration CC AND can still go for certain runes to reduce it further. Even this doesn't do jack vs Suppressions/Knockups though.

Sadly anything but a full tank, or an Olaf still dies if the team they are against has even 3 members with hard CC. With the way damage is these days the team that fails to avoid the first CC generally loses the fight.

Just look at a Morgana/Caitlyn bot lane. If you fail at dodging a binding nothing short of being a 3 armor item tank, or a Zilean/Taric/Kayle/Tryn/Aatrox/Kindred ulti is going to save you from being gibbed. Same goes for Morg/Jhin, Xayah/Rakan, Ali/Kalista, Braum/Draven, Ect.

QuephaMar 13, 20191 votes

I think it's better to reward coordination and team play that allows teams to counter especially fed champions. Non-fed champions will die to a single cc and non-coordinated teams will tend to stack their cc poorly.