Can we make armor useful again?

RuGu·Jan 3, 2015·4 votes·1,159 views

Kind of tired of building full tank, only to get murdered by anyone who builds Last Whisperer.

You want tanks to be part of the meta? remove that item.

21 Comments

redniwediSJan 3, 20153 votes

Armor by itself is about as useful as health or MR by themselves. You want the secondary effects, like attack speed slows, or damage reflection. That's what makes building full tank useful.

Oh, and not fighting someone with a last whisper when you don't have backup helps.

RuGuJan 3, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Armor by itself is about as useful as health or MR by themselves. You want the secondary effects, like attack speed slows, or damage reflection. That's what makes building full tank useful.

Oh, and not fighting someone with a last whisper when you don't have backup helps.

Yeah, but when I have Frozen Heart, Randuins, Ninjas, and Thorn Mail, I should at least last longer than 4 seconds vs Yasuo. But hey he built a LW so he should counter your whole build right?!

redniwediSJan 3, 20153 votes

That's only one health item, and you're fighting a fighter/assassin while not having damage of your own. Tanks are a team role, so don't try and do non-team things with one.

RuGuJan 3, 20151 votes

{quoted}

That's only one health item, and you're fighting a fighter/assassin while not having damage of your own. Tanks are a team role, so don't try and do non-team things with one.

I had Trinity and Shiv on GP, trust me I did damage.

They had an entire AD team, I'm just not seeing the point in building any kind of armor anymore.

redniwediSJan 3, 20152 votes

That's not "full tank" then... and GP isn't even a tank...

Bruiser GP is not a great duelist, particularly when facing a glass cannon. I would recommend not complaining about the problems of "full tank" builds under these circumstances.

Lord DusteonJan 3, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I had Trinity and Shiv on GP, trust me I did damage.

They had an entire AD team, I'm just not seeing the point in building any kind of armor anymore.

You are supposed to build armor + hp, not lots of armor and one tiny bit of hp thrown in. Otherwise, Yasuo's ult let's him temporarily ignore 50% of bonus armor, and last whisper applies 35% penetration afterwards.

RuGuJan 3, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Dusteon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=izdsnvWY,comment-id=00000000000000000001,timestamp=2015-01-03T19:28:26.906+0000)

You are supposed to build armor + hp, not lots of armor and one tiny bit of hp thrown in. Otherwise, Yasuo's ult let's him temporarily ignore 50% of bonus armor, and last whisper applies 35% penetration afterwards.

I could had had sunfire, probably would have been better than frozen, but i like the ATK speed slow.

SeCKS EgaiJan 3, 20154 votes

{quoted}

I had Trinity and Shiv on GP, trust me I did damage.

They had an entire AD team, I'm just not seeing the point in building any kind of armor anymore.

It's too bad that the majority of folks who complain don't even understand mechanics.

Full tank does not include a Tri Force and Shiv. It's ironic that he's complaining about LW and doesn't even build one for "damage". Thinking Tri and shiv alone is "damage" is laughable. Sure if you're far ahead early on and manage to build that much it'll hurt. Later in a match it's a lot less effective as folks itemize for better damage and/or mitigation.

Trying to fight Yasuo 1v1 as GP is just a lack of skill if the GP isn't massively far ahead. Stacking armor with few health bonuses behind it also indicates a severe misunderstanding of game mechanics.

I mean, the dude can hit 100% crit and you're expecting to beat him with 2 "offense" items and 4 armor items. He naturally has a stronger offense, and considering the OP's itemization I'm sure had some lifesteal to help mitigate the thornmail damage reflect (and likely some mag res). If he's landing an ult that's unanswered damage soon to followed up with a lot more unless he's locked down in solid cc.

It's not like Yasuo is a new champion, the OP should know this kind of stuff by now if he/she feels qualified to complain about something.

RuGuJan 3, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=SeCKS Egai,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=izdsnvWY,comment-id=00000000000000000002,timestamp=2015-01-03T19:49:07.949+0000)

It's too bad that the majority of folks who complain don't even understand mechanics.

Full tank does not include a Tri Force and Shiv. It's ironic that he's complaining about LW and doesn't even build one for "damage". Thinking Tri and shiv alone is "damage" is laughable. Sure if you're far ahead early on and manage to build that much it'll hurt. Later in a match it's a lot less effective as folks itemize for better damage and/or mitigation.

Trying to fight Yasuo 1v1 as GP is just a lack of skill if the GP isn't massively far ahead. Stacking armor with few health bonuses behind it also indicates a severe misunderstanding of game mechanics.

I mean, the dude can hit 100% crit and you're expecting to beat him with 2 "offense" items and 4 armor items. He naturally has a stronger offense, and considering the OP's itemization I'm sure had some lifesteal to help mitigate the thornmail damage reflect (and likely some mag res). If he's landing an ult that's unanswered damage soon to followed up with a lot more unless he's locked down in solid cc.

It's not like Yasuo is a new champion, the OP should know this kind of stuff by now if he/she feels qualified to complain about something.

ExceptI did more damage than yasuo, took more damage than yasuo, and had thornmail.

Not to mention I have a decent heal as GP, I wrecked most of the entire game, but yasuo buys a LW and suddenly my armor that I built is 30% less effective.

I could have had more health but to be honest, outside of Sunfire cape, I dont find a lot of items effective in that manor. What should I build besides Randuins?

redniwediSJan 3, 20151 votes

You shouldn't be focusing on build problems right now, as in a regular situation your build would be fine. Your problem is that you think bruiser GP can fight Yasuo. Unless you are ahead or have amazing kiting abilities you should not be able to win a 1v1 against Yasuo as GP, end of story. GP is not a duelist, and should be played in a manner that actually fits his strengths and not his weaknesses.

Now, you are free to play any champion however you like, but if you complain about your champion doing poorly when played in a non-optimal way you're just going to get yelled at.

Thedante673Jan 3, 20151 votes

If he ulted you he ignores 50% of your armor, LW ignores another 35%, that maybe why you lost that fight, but it does not normally go that way, as a tank I can take hits from 3 players for around 7-10 seconds before I die.

RuGuJan 3, 20151 votes

{quoted}

If he ulted you he ignores 50% of your armor, LW ignores another 35%, that maybe why you lost that fight, but it does not normally go that way, as a tank I can take hits from 3 players for around 7-10 seconds before I die.

that is the key problem though.

There are a lot of ways to ignore a tanks armor, how about something other than exhaust that reduces a carrys damage?

redniwediSJan 3, 20151 votes

As I said before, tanks are a team role. They provide CC so that their carry can do their damage in peace. GP is not a tank, and with a build like that is still governed by the problems of non-duelist fighters. No non-duelist should be able to duel a duelist just because of a few tank items.

Kuroi86Jan 3, 20152 votes

Yasuo is a tank buster, look at his ult. Now remember not to take on him or Vayne by yourself anymore.

RuGuJan 3, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Yasuo is a tank buster, look at his ult. Now remember not to take on him or Vayne by yourself anymore.

I mean I killed him as well, its just a little derp tarded that he can be behind all game, but one item, and suddenly can melt everything.

SeCKS EgaiJan 3, 20151 votes

{quoted}

ExceptI did more damage than yasuo, took more damage than yasuo, and had thornmail.

Not to mention I have a decent heal as GP, I wrecked most of the entire game, but yasuo buys a LW and suddenly my armor that I built is 30% less effective.

I could have had more health but to be honest, outside of Sunfire cape, I dont find a lot of items effective in that manor. What should I build besides Randuins?

{quoted}

I mean I killed him as well, its just a little derp tarded that he can be behind all game, but one item, and suddenly can melt everything.

Yas is offensively focused, and I wouldn't be surprised if he was initially envisioned to be a melee adc in bot lane considering his kit. 3 key items dramatically boost his potential, shiv, ie and lw. Each one on it's own lends plenty to his kit, and by the time he has all 3 he does "a ton of damage".

As GP generally speaking you're wanting to soften him up with parley while avoiding the whirlwind/ult. Once itemization becomes a factor (he's got items) he's generally going to kill a target before he dies in direct trades. The best mitigation to his damage is locking him down and preventing his attacks in the first place.

General mitigation (armor, health, mag res) is a lot less effective than it used to be between item changes and penetration changes. What that means is it's better to outdamage a target outright than try to win a battle of attrition and tank hits while doing less damage.

I wouldn't fight a Yas 1v1 unless you know you can burst him down before he can retaliate, and I'd apply that philosophy to pretty much any champ, not just GP.

GP isn't a tank, he lacks any form of real CC, and his ult serves more as support than an initiator. He works best in a fighter/bruiser role mixing damage and a bit of survivability - he needs to hurt but he can't fall over like a wet paper napkin.

But again, if you were going to fight that I would have invested more in offense because just 1 strong parley can mean all the difference.

Sailor MintJan 3, 20151 votes

Being able to survive through several seconds of focus fire when most players die in less than 2 seconds is a fairly significant improvement.

Cloud273Jan 3, 20151 votes

You forgot cleaver and ghostblade OP. And don't forget these items stack, so you can get armor pen AND last whisper. Isn't that great? Oh, and let's not forget BOTRK and %health damage (Vayne, Malzahar, etc). Tanks are screwed no matter what they build.

karruckJan 3, 20151 votes

Taric is a decent tank his E slows and does dmg his ult can dmg some to assist your partner his W passive adds armor to himself and his partner or any ally in range W active is a weak aoe but i dont use it much and his heal if used on an ally heals you both giving a bit of suvivability to an encounter big problem he is slow to ninja tabi is a must and his heal is mostly dependant on his own health just my thoughts I am no pro but its an idea

pleepJan 3, 20151 votes

there are some tanks that are unkillable with no items. Leona, Braum, Rammus and Taric come to mind.

If armor got buffed these champions would become retarded. If you want to be tankier play a true tank, not a bruiser. Gankplank tank is suckish no matter what you build. And make ur u are going 29 defensive masteries