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Let's give some love to the champs who have been left behind.

M0RDEKA1SER··4 votes·1,005 views

I'm primarily going to be talking from an Udyr main's perspective, but I'm sure what I have to say will also apply to some other champions as well.

With LoL's new "hyper-mobile meta," it can be challenging if not impossible for some of the outdated champions to contribute to a match.

For example: In a match where I'm jungling as Udyr . I'll try to gank bot with a Kalista or Vayne. Even with my speed boost from my passive and E, I'll try to close in and they just hop away. Kalista will literally just auto attack me to death if I try to close in, she hops away, and if I try to run away she just hops after me.

With a support, she's pretty much Garenteed to kill me because Udyr doesn't have a dash, hop, etc. he can't disengage, or engage.

Garen has the same problem. He has a speed boost, but it's not enough to close in on anyone who has a dash, hop, or leap. His only hope is if he sits in a bush, they don't ward it, and get too close. Even then, he does a little bit of damage, and they hop away to safety.

Okay, you might be thinking, "well, you're talking about the weakness of melee champs." Yes, I am talking about the weakness of some melee champs. But, you've got Renekton, Lee Sin, Rek' Sai, Tryndamere, J4, and Jax to mention a few. They can all disengage safely with something, or engage.

Ignoring the melee champs for a second, you've got Ashe who's big thing was being able to kite because of her slow. Or shooting a slow and just running instead of kiting. Anyone with a gap-closer just hops on top of her and laughs as she struggles in vain to escape. Then there's Sivir who used to be able to boomerang behind the safety of her minions, and now the minions are basically ignored. Her only hope is to Q from max distance and hope she hits.

I don't know exactly what to propose to help keep everyone on a more even playing field, but I'm tired of seeing the same champions rinse and repeated every match because you just can't compete with a hyper-mobile champ, unless you also play a hyper-mobile champ.

What do you guys think?

22 Comments

Only Play Darius3 votes

Kalista is the biggest problem in this regard. Here I thought LeeSin Zed LeblancGnar 's mobility made them frustrating to fight, Kalista 's mobility on her passive makes her a living nightmare (Imagine if Vayne had no cooldown on her Q and could keep autoattacking the entire time), and let's not even talk about her unbelievably obnoxious synergy with item 3085, OR her ult that can be used as Thresh lantern 2.0 AND a Malphite ult.

Draven's passive got changed shortly after his release because it gave him unhealthy synergy with an already unhealthy mechanic (much like Tryndamere) and was no fun to play against. His new passive is far more interesting, fits his theme much better, and we can for the most part, agree he is better off with it.

No reason Kalista's passive should remain the way it is.

GloriousKaiser3 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ObEvZvs3ko I think this is relevant. Still painful to watch.

M0RDEKA1SER1 votes

I would have ran away long before that. Hopefully there would be a turret to save me, because just like Udyr couldn't stay on top of him, he also wouldn't be able to get away from him.

Matezoide1 votes

At least Ez had an IBG, got hit once and needed to flash.

Meanwhile Kalista does that with just a recurve bow without using any summoner spells whike never getting hit :^]

BluePolarizer2 votes

haha even Tryndamere and Jax get kited extremely easily in this meta. Jax/Tryndamere jumps at Kalista, Kalista leaps back. If he has stun, Kalista can leap-dodge it with Q to the side. This is, of course, assuming good mechanics on the parts of both players, but the burden is on Kalista to mess up; there's nothing you can do as a melee champ except hope for Kalista/Vayne to make a mistake.

M0RDEKA1SER1 votes

This only further illustrates my point. Even with a dash/hop, they can't compare to these newer "hyper-mobile" champs because they're only "mobile."

BluePolarizer1 votes

its kinda sad really.

MrSc0tty1 votes

I mean if immobile champs weren't almost always statistically superior in terms of solo Q winrates is be more inclined to feel mobility was a problem. I don't play LCS, I play SoloQ.

M0RDEKA1SER1 votes

"Winrates" is a poor way to judge the danger a champion presents.

A decent amount of people will play these "OP" champs because "ZOMG, he caryd so hard!" "If i play him ill carry too!"

Some of those champions take skill. I know, because I've tried them. So, you get people who suck with the champion thrown in that pool as well.

Whereas you've got a select pool of champions that nobody plays because "ugh, their winrate is terribad!" But, the few people who do play those champions are usually really good with them, thus, keeping the winrate up.

But, then you've got players as skilled as Crumbzz and Dan Dinh playing Udyr, and these hyper-mobile champs just eat them. The only reason they're any good with Udyr is because they build tanky, run away, and only engage on a fight that's already going to win.

It Hertz When IP1 votes

For example, I tried to play Zed during one of his F2P weeks. Turns out that bastard takes way more skill than I thought. Doesn't make him any less gay to face, but at least it killed my initial urge to toss my standards aside and jump on the mobility bandwagon.

windwolf7771 votes

[{quoted}](name=Darien Juranas,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ioh1oI2P,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2015-03-29T02:24:03.609+0000)

For example, I tried to play Zed during one of his F2P weeks. Turns out that bastard takes way more skill than I thought. Doesn't make him any less gay to face, but at least it killed my initial urge to toss my standards aside and jump on the mobility bandwagon.

"Skill" so Ult, item 3153 active, (optional item 3142 active), mash buttons, (possibly throw in AA's if you can/want to), instantly tp back to safety in ult shadow?

It Hertz When IP1 votes

Actually, button mashing got me killed as Zed, and if you aren't somewhat picky about who you go full ham on, the target's going to get away. His ult's still complete BS in terms of easy-to-use, though, and his poke/trade ability is obscene given that he has almost zero resource issues.

Which lead me to have an idea about balancing him; nerf his ability damage to enemy champions, but have his ult mark increase damage dealt to the target by his abilities back to current levels. That way he's got to pop his ult to deal full damage, which might limit his laning-phase poking and by proxy limit his waveclear early game.

windwolf7771 votes

[{quoted}](name=Darien Juranas,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ioh1oI2P,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-03-30T14:45:35.898+0000)

Actually, button mashing got me killed as Zed, and if you aren't somewhat picky about who you go full ham on, the target's going to get away. His ult's still complete BS in terms of easy-to-use, though, and his poke/trade ability is obscene given that he has almost zero resource issues.

Which lead me to have an idea about balancing him; nerf his ability damage to enemy champions, but have his ult mark increase damage dealt to the target by his abilities back to current levels. That way he's got to pop his ult to deal full damage, which might limit his laning-phase poking and by proxy limit his waveclear early game.

I was massively exaggerating when I posted that but you're right. It's just that the safety that he has upon using the ult is too good. And that sounds good. And I still think that they should remove the shadow that gets placed when you ult. EDIT: Or they could also remove the fucking bullshit % Bonus AD from the shadow and turn it into just a flat amount

It Hertz When IP2 votes

I think their main design concern was that if he only had one ability to generate a shadow and that was on CD, his ult could go all sorts of wrong. Which puzzles me because no other champion that I can think of has that kind of safety built into casting their ult.

windwolf7772 votes

[{quoted}](name=Darien Juranas,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ioh1oI2P,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-03-30T20:30:34.993+0000)

I think their main design concern was that if he only had one ability to generate a shadow and that was on CD, his ult could go all sorts of wrong. Which puzzles me because no other champion that I can think of has that kind of safety built into casting their ult.

True, however, as they said with Veigar when they "buffed" him; "We removed the ult shadow from Zed. We feel this will separate the good zeds from the great ones."

It Hertz When IP2 votes

I kind of want to hack into the next set of design notes and put that just to see the Zed players twitch.

windwolf7771 votes

[{quoted}](name=Darien Juranas,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ioh1oI2P,comment-id=000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-03-30T23:56:50.957+0000)

I kind of want to hack into the next set of design notes and put that just to see the Zed players twitch.

He obviously needs a buff. Let's: Nerf the damage and scalings on shurikens, his spin skill, and the mirror damage on ult while giving a cd increase on shadows.

MrSc0tty1 votes

{quoted}

"Winrates" is a poor way to judge the danger a champion presents.

A decent amount of people will play these "OP" champs because "ZOMG, he caryd so hard!" "If i play him ill carry too!"

Some of those champions take skill. I know, because I've tried them. So, you get people who suck with the champion thrown in that pool as well.

Whereas you've got a select pool of champions that nobody plays because "ugh, their winrate is terribad!" But, the few people who do play those champions are usually really good with them, thus, keeping the winrate up.

But, then you've got players as skilled as Crumbzz and Dan Dinh playing Udyr, and these hyper-mobile champs just eat them. The only reason they're any good with Udyr is because they build tanky, run away, and only engage on a fight that's already going to win.

When I'm looking at my teammates, "winrate" is the only thing I care about. Besides the "skill differential" that you talked about, different things are strong in SoloQ than in LCS. More mistakes are made even at challenger level due to the lack of communication, making hard cc and AOEs disproportionally strong, and mobility disproportionally weak.

And I'm not even going to comment on how goofy your statement was that people would look at a champ, say their winrate is terribad, and then not play them and the people who do play them give them abnormally large winrates. Because that's just hilarious.

Am i saying Udyr is good? No, not at all. Udyr sucks, not just because of his lack of mobility, but because of his lack of utility and AOEs. Udyr is an all-round awful champion and I apologize, he really does need a rework. But someone like Heimerdinger or Rammus is always gonna be the Solo Q king because they are just so hard to screw up and they require your opponents to play a particular way that odds are, they will not do.

If Riot balanced the game perfectly for professional play (see: DoTA) mobile high skillcap champions like Lee Sin and Yasuo would be rocking 30-40% winrates and AOE mages and tanks would be in the high 60s. That's how DotA's winrates normally pan out. If they balanced around soloQ winrate, then the champion pool in LCS would never move higher than 15. So you kind of pick your poison and do a little of both, that's why you wind up with Lee Sin never getting nerfed and Sona getting demolished left and right.

Kitten of Evil1 votes

I mean, it varies. Heimer has always had a high winrate and he's immobile, but so have Kat and Sejuani, who are both pretty mobile.

MrSc0tty1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kitten of Evil,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ioh1oI2P,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2015-03-29T05:43:43.280+0000)

I mean, it varies. Heimer has always had a high winrate and he's immobile, but so have Kat and Sejuani, who are both pretty mobile.

Yes, and you notice something else about their kits?

A) A retarded chimp double amputee could play Katarina and Sejuani at the razor's edge of their skillcap,

and B) They both have gigantic AOEs the size of kentucky.

THATS how you win in solo Q, you play champs that are impossible to screw up.

Kitten of Evil1 votes

Ungankable champions are toxic for the game imo. Vayne isn't, but Kalista is if she's not braindead... so are Leblanc and Nidalee, though. Which would be fine if it were a two-way street, but they don't give up damage for that mobility.

Miku Lv991 votes

I mostly agree but it is very possible to gank a vayne with udyr and kill her. Just a day or two ago I made it happen. I was playing Janna and started a little exchange where I normally wouldn't. Vayne attacked me, then moved forward to attack me again, then tumbled forward to attack me yet again. But then Udry showed up and she couldn't get away. With my slow + knock up and her tumble already used, there was no way she could escape. Yes it's hard to get this good of a bait but it can happen and it is possible to gank these champions except maybe not ones like Kalista.

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