Riot, you promised us to look onto Nidalee's current…

Coraxo · 2017-01-05T12:21:24.468Z

Hello Riot. You promised us a while ago that you'll be looking to buff/change Nidalee a little bit in patch 7.1, She currently has the lowest win rate in several servers and 2nd / 3rd lowest win rate in the others. She's extremely unplayable right now, i understand she was one of the most "broken" champions (not really) but her having 40% win rate is extremely unhealthy for any champion. And her kit isn't outdated like Nunu to have such win rate. I personally always believed you were nerfing her in the wrong way in season 6, the reason she was broken is mostly because of Strength Of The Ages, not because of her kit. As you remember she wasn't this good at the beginning of season 5 EVEN though she weren't nerfed at all! You changed her passive, delayed her Q toss, removed auto attack reset from R, you made W cooldown so high + the reset on it AND you nerfed all her abilities (remember, all of this changes didn't happen in season 5 and she wasn't that good). Of course you were trying to nerf her without completely deleting this champion, for example you buffed some of her abilities like the execution damage on her Q, and she was actually okay at the end of season 6. After the removal of SOTA she got weak, as if it wasn't enough that jungle camps got stronger (Raptors + Golems), i think if you lower the cooldown reset on her Pounce (W) she would get much better. TL;DR in MY opinion the biggest reason she was one of the best junglers is because of Strength Of The Ages plus a few little things (like Rylai's Crystal Scepter and Road Of Ages before both items got nerfed) Riot, i ask you here nicely to look onto buffing or changing Nidalee in someway. I have the most fun playing this champion and i never get bored of playing her. Thanks for reading.

CoraxoJan 5, 20172 votes

{quoted}

We'll be buffing Nid in 7.2. Not sure what changes yet, would be aiming for a fairly sizable power increase given her current state though.

Thanks for the reply, much appreciated! I trust Riot with the upcoming changes :)

MunchCrunchLunchJan 5, 20174 votes

{quoted}

We'll be buffing Nid in 7.2. Not sure what changes yet, would be aiming for a fairly sizable power increase given her current state though.

welcome back meddler

RiotMeddlerJan 5, 201710 votes

Thanks, good to be back into things :).

jemandeJan 5, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Thanks, good to be back into things :).

Since you are buffing nidalee make sure to buff champ such as talyih morde kindred vladimir aka gutted champ

WiIlumpJan 9, 20171 votes

https://gyazo.com/4e5078c31cefd490ff42335f0a49af24

Taliyah doesn't really need a buff right now. She has high and very consistent damage lol.

jemandeFeb 17, 20171 votes

holy u got fed one game must be god this champ

The IgnobleJan 5, 20172 votes

Would it be an all-around buff to her kit or just focused on her Jungle (bah) clears?

SpearKittyJan 5, 20173 votes

{quoted}

We'll be buffing Nid in 7.2. Not sure what changes yet, would be aiming for a fairly sizable power increase given her current state though.

I'm very excited to see that good things are coming, I miss not getting yelled at for playing Nid all the time ;-;

warpenguin555Jan 5, 20175 votes

Just please dont over buff her. She's so boring to watch in pro play

ExilęJan 6, 20174 votes

i kinda disagree with that lol. shes the most fun to watch in pro play, especially from active junglers like reignover or svenskeren. The reksai gragas meta killed my vibe and made me almost stop watching LCS entirely, and the olaf jungle meta was just -_-

KrabbyJan 5, 20172 votes

does this mean +5 AD?

Nidalee or I afkJan 5, 20172 votes

I saw champions who could be played AD or AP disappear through the seasons (tristana, yi, sion..). Don't forget that Nidalee could be played both AD and AP after Riot Repertoir's rework. I am afraid that by buffing her "power" you'd only mean her ap gameplay. I know Riot gives orders and that you should keep the game easy, but the diversity of builds on a hero is what makes him fun and interesting.

NorakJan 6, 201718 votes

Has Riot ever seriously considered reverting to old Nidalee?

New Nidalee is not only harder to balance but she's so much less fun because she's binary. Laning will never be balanced on her because of her playstyle. She lands a spear and goes in, that's it. if she doesn't land a spear she doesn't go in because cougar is too weak without the perks of hunt. If she lands a spear, her enemies immediately know she's going to go in and can mentally prepare themselves for it, making it impossible to lane against certain champions.

Old Nidalee worked in mid as AP, top as AD/tank and even in jungle back then, though it was rough. She could be played support or even adc, though she wasn't top tier in those roles, you could manage it. She was balanced around her playstyles; top AD was great at splitpushing and 1v1ing but provided a lot less to teamfights. Mid AP she was incredibly weak early and had a lot of trouble csing because she didn't have cougar level 1, she won lane by outplaying her opponent and consistently landing long range spears. If she didn't land spears she wouldn't be winning lane, if she did land spears she would be winning lane. Until 6, where she could have a lot more mind game pressure with cougar form. You could be csing and randomly cougar all in an opponent, if you did it right then you could actually out trade people. AP Nid was squishy and fell short against hard engage, or even just an assassin that can keep up with her/cc her.

Please consider changing her back. New Nidalee is the epitome of boring. Spears don't feel rewarding, traps are a literally useless ability now. Cougar feels terrible unless you land a spear and even then they expect it so it's fairly common to be predicted and turned on because of how obvious your decision train is.

Old spears, old traps without %mr/armor shred, old cougar, keep cougar W direction change with the rework, keep the smaller hitbox on spears to make it harder to land them / allow cooler spear plays between minions (which we don't get to see after rework anyway because she's a jungler).

Doing that would make Nid a fun, flexible champion again, she'll have counterplay and be easier to balance as you don't have to account for best/worst case scenarios of hunt. You can just balance her as a champion as she is.

NineTailedMysticJan 6, 201711 votes

Old Spears as in the nuclear warheads the width of a tree? If so, please god no.

2doge4uJan 6, 20173 votes

Old spears as in if you don't hit them you are not completely useless.

SpecterVonBarenJan 6, 20173 votes

You seem to have an odd understanding of old NId... Old Nid was even more useless if she didn't land her spears. Although that was better in the long run since it meant she was complete ass if her team couldn't siege or yours had hard engage unlike current Nid who's either broken or trash.

I am RazgrizJan 6, 20171 votes

Pretty sure he's referring to the time Nidalee was a bruiser top.

Nidalee has had many incarnations, not just two.

NorakJan 7, 20171 votes

I'm referring to pre-rework Nidalee.

I am RazgrizJan 11, 20171 votes

She's had two, which did you want?

XaviourJan 6, 20173 votes

Old spears as in nuclear warheads with the width of a tree on a 3.6s cooldown which ~~if ~~ WHEN you hit one would send someone to base, thus winning every siege.

The problem was not the absurd damage, the problem was the spammable absurd damage. If you miss 19 spears and hit your twentieth you still did your job.

DolodinJan 6, 20171 votes

50 "no"s and a "yes" means "yes"...

NorakJan 6, 20171 votes

New champions/items exist now that would make old Nid a lot less viable. If need be the spears could be nerfed a little, but that might not be necessary with champions like Kled/Braum/Yasuo now, and items like Edge of Night and Protobelt. Also I said in the post, keep the width as small as it is now. Not only is it harder to land then, but it makes for cool between minion spears at higher levels.

NineTailedMysticJan 6, 20171 votes

I would still rather not die because she hit one spear after fishing for one the entire mid/late game.

NorakJan 6, 20171 votes

She only literally one-shot with spears when she was thousands of gold ahead and landed a max range, slowest skillshot in the game. It took 2-3 spears normally, and if you're running into 2-3 spears, without engaging as a team, then you're playing against Nid wrong.

Would you rather play against the Current Nid who clears ridiculously well, kills your jungler 5 times and oneshots you with a Qcougar?

NineTailedMysticJan 6, 20171 votes

No to the first two, yes to where she actually has to take a risk if she wants to kill after a Q. I just don't want ICBMs back without her having to take a risk.

NorakJan 7, 20171 votes

You're taking the best part of old Nid and the worst part of new nid and comparing them. If you want to compare them compare their bests with their bests and their worsts with their worsts.

Best: Old Nid could 1/2-3/4 chunk you with a decent spear as a mid lane champ. That is the slowest skillshot in the game, single target, her only non melee damage source and it has to hit you at a far range. She was strong because of this in a siege position. If you let a Nidalee siege then you were not playing against her correctly, unless you have one of the champions with kits to counter siege (yasuo, braum, etc.).

New Nid, when not completely terrible due to numbers, completely shits on enemy junglers with very little counter play. She will kill them multiple times in their own jungle and escape without his allies being able to clean her up due to her pounce over walls. She still sieges okay, so she transitions well into the mid-late game, she just has a lot less counters overall and is a much more boring champion.

Worst: Old Nid had a very weak laning phase, was easily pushed into tower and outroamed pre-6. Her spears were her lane presence and she had no mobility to get away from ganks. Her mid-late game relied on her team grouping and sieging with her, but an enemy team with hard engage countered that. New champs/items will also make it even easier to deal with her specifically if need be.

New Nid has to all in, but typically early game that doesn't matter as she is invading jungle. Lategame she will build tanky to be able to survive all ins and/or she will just siege with her team, just a weaker siege to her old self.

NineTailedMysticJan 7, 20171 votes

solution: make new nid a laner.

NorakJan 8, 20171 votes

Like she was before the rework? Gotcha.

NineTailedMysticJan 8, 20171 votes

except without reverting the rework.

TiroresteslaJan 6, 20171 votes

Haven't you heard League of tanks no-one will be dying😂

BârdJan 6, 20173 votes

There was a time period between "Old Nid" and "Jungle Nid".

Old Nid was cancer. Her spears would instantly kill any non tank, and had hitboxes about the size of Morgana Q. Her pounce was clunky as hell to boot.

The "New Nid" was still a laner for a long time; it wasn't until Riot shoehorned her into the jungle that people started to play her there.

Jungle Nid ended up being toxic as hell, and instead of just reverting the change that made her clear well, they ended up nerfing Nid so much that she became completely unplayable in lanes (eventually in the jungle, as well).

NorakJan 6, 20171 votes

If you read the whole comment, I said keep the hitbox small on her spears, keep her fixed cougar W. She still has more counterplay in her pre-rework form than in her current good-at-all-stages, jungle domintant, binary Spear-Cougar-Combo form.

VenedictosJan 6, 20171 votes

Good-at-all-stages? That's just pretentious. She was good in mid game where the advantages she accumulated by clearing the jungle super fast and then pressuring the lanes and counterjungling really shined. But that's all there was to it. She never had a good late game, you can't compare her to any late game mages and heck, she itemises for full AP usually. Now she doesn't even have a strong mid game.

NorakJan 7, 20171 votes

She was extremely strong early game, strong mid game and filled a very useful role in the lategame. That is "good-at-all-stages", not pretentious. Think of champions like Amumu. He's weak early, mid game where teamfights start he's a lot stronger, and lategame where teamfights define games he's extremely strong. This is like a reverse Nidalee, except lategame she's not really weak, she provides poke, vision control and heals for her team/adc along with a steroid, mobility and good objective control.

[EDIT] Also you said she itemises full AP, that's usually only for arrogant solo Q players or low elo. She builds AP to start snowballing then she builds off tank with Spirit etc.

VenedictosJan 6, 20171 votes

To be fair, before the Season 5 pre-season changes, I had seen one or two players using her in the jungle with fair success. It might have just been a matter of time before people figured out that she had reasons to be played in there. I'm not sure if she would have worked in the S5 jungle without her root, though. But I still do recall Diamondprox playing Gragas jungle full tank, a patch or two before S5's preseason in Gambit's relegation matches. Turns out Gragas was a really good tank in the jungle and it took two seasons of nerfs to keep him down, with only slight periods of time where he fell out of flavor. Sounds familiar? That's what happened with Nidalee too!

WindLord7070Jan 6, 20171 votes

{quoted}

There was a time period between "Old Nid" and "Jungle Nid".

Old Nid was cancer. Her spears would instantly kill any non tank, and had hitboxes about the size of Morgana Q. Her pounce was clunky as hell to boot.

The "New Nid" was still a laner for a long time; it wasn't until Riot shoehorned her into the jungle that people started to play her there.

Jungle Nid ended up being toxic as hell, and instead of just reverting the change that made her clear well, they ended up nerfing Nid so much that she became completely unplayable in lanes (eventually in the jungle, as well).

this is something people forget about all the time. There was a short period when she was really balanced. After her rework and then after that one patch when her ad was pretty broken. They nerfed that and she was good to go. Then they forced her into the jungle for some reason buffed her then decided to nerf the living shit out of her in ways that ruined her lanning more than it did her jungle. I guess reducing damage against jungle camps was something they never thought of.

VenedictosJan 6, 20172 votes

You are making some fair points, but I feel like current Nidalee has way more things to be excited about, compared to old Nidalee.

Old Nidalee was very one-dimensional and you can argue all you want that she was viable in multiple roles but the reasons she was might be irrelevant right now, or certain aspects that allowed her to work in the roles might be considered unhealthy.

Revert her back to her old iteration? With a nerfed spear hitbox? Yeah, cool. I can feel even more pressured to land my spears now and my enemies can feel even worse that they got chunked for 80% of their health bar from 1400 units away. Will she be viable again? Possibly. Fun? Enjoyable? Healthy? Maybe not.

I believe the reason you feel currently Nidalee is boring is because two years of nerfs have finally caught up with her now that she can't abuse the systems around her as hard as she did for those two seasons. If anything, I'd love it if spears were just a bit more rewarding to hit and hell, I REALLY wish her traps were meaningful again outside of proccing your passive.

But these are all moving parts of her kit and now she's got way more levers to pull depending on what they'd like to push her into. Personally, I'd love to see her Cougar E apply a "bleed" of sorts. Makes sense thematically and will bring her teamfighting up a fair bit, while still requiring her to dive into the thick of the fight. But that's just my ideas and that won't help AD Nidalee at all.

I also would love it if she could feel better about her itemisation, but that isn't a Nidalee-specific problem. She currently likes CDR very much, she needs health to get into melee and she still needs to itemise around Luden's if she wants to have any presence in the game. Almost feels like I need a 7th slot on every bruiser-ish mage, just because Void Staff is so mandatory, yet I still need Rabaddon's because the rest of the items hardly give any AP anymore. On the other hand, she's pretty diverse with her itemisation depending on how you wanna play, which is nice.

NorakJan 7, 20171 votes

Your post doesn't make sense; you agree that old Nidalee was viable in more roles, in more lanes and with more builds, yet you say she was very one dimensional. Those two are contradictory. If you were to say that she's one dimensional in her playstyle as an AP mid specifically, even that would be false.

Current Nid can only throw a spear, if it hits she has to decide to go in, or not go in. Other than that going cougar is not worth it. Cougar was designed around Hunt and as such it is weak without Hunt's bonuses. Enemies know this, so Lane Nidalee cannot exist unless she's absolutely broken number wise. This is truly one dimensional. You have only one role she will work in (Jungle) and in that role she has one playstyle, one decision to make during the whole game; Spear->Cougar or Spear->No Cougar.

Old Nidalee worked as a top AD/Bruiser split pusher, mid AP poke/siege teamfighter, and less so in the other roles as ADC, support and jungle but she could work. In her role as a top lane champion her build would be extremely flexible dependent on who her opponent was and how she had to patch her weaknesses against them. Nid Mid was only one dimensional in the sense of pre-6 she had to dodge skillshots and land her own, while providing lane pressure with traps and also providing a little bit of a safety net against junglers. She had very little options to win lane pre-6 but it was possible if she played well. After 6 she was a whole new ball game. Her cougar was very strong, but could be used to waveclear too. So she could either randomly cougar to trade an opponent who was too far forward, or she could try to use it to waveclear and roam, which is a bit risky against a few midlaners.

I think Current Nidalee is boring not because of nerfs, but because she's just plain boring. I played Nid for years, and after the rework I played her on PBE and tried playing her on live after she came out. I never found her fun other than the fact that I was winning.

WindLord7070Jan 7, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Your post doesn't make sense; you agree that old Nidalee was viable in more roles, in more lanes and with more builds, yet you say she was very one dimensional. Those two are contradictory. If you were to say that she's one dimensional in her playstyle as an AP mid specifically, even that would be false.

Current Nid can only throw a spear, if it hits she has to decide to go in, or not go in. Other than that going cougar is not worth it. Cougar was designed around Hunt and as such it is weak without Hunt's bonuses. Enemies know this, so Lane Nidalee cannot exist unless she's absolutely broken number wise. This is truly one dimensional. You have only one role she will work in (Jungle) and in that role she has one playstyle, one decision to make during the whole game; Spear->Cougar or Spear->No Cougar.

Old Nidalee worked as a top AD/Bruiser split pusher, mid AP poke/siege teamfighter, and less so in the other roles as ADC, support and jungle but she could work. In her role as a top lane champion her build would be extremely flexible dependent on who her opponent was and how she had to patch her weaknesses against them. Nid Mid was only one dimensional in the sense of pre-6 she had to dodge skillshots and land her own, while providing lane pressure with traps and also providing a little bit of a safety net against junglers. She had very little options to win lane pre-6 but it was possible if she played well. After 6 she was a whole new ball game. Her cougar was very strong, but could be used to waveclear too. So she could either randomly cougar to trade an opponent who was too far forward, or she could try to use it to waveclear and roam, which is a bit risky against a few midlaners.

I think Current Nidalee is boring not because of nerfs, but because she's just plain boring. I played Nid for years, and after the rework I played her on PBE and tried playing her on live after she came out. I never found her fun other than the fact that I was winning.

post rework nidalee also worked a as AD/Bruiser She became alot more fun to play becuase you could actually go in and fight people before 6

NorakJan 7, 20171 votes

Note what I said in my comment:

Cougar was designed around Hunt and as such it is weak without Hunt's bonuses. Enemies know this, so Lane Nidalee cannot exist unless she's absolutely broken number wise.

Top Nid existed, and sure I agree was more fun because cougar existed pre-6. However it was broken because on release her numbers were stupid. As soon as they nerfed Nid's numbers to be in check she stopped being played top at all, which is why I assume they turned her into a jungler. They realised a binary champ like her should exist with the other binary champs that can't lane; amumu, fiddlesticks, etc. In the jungle.

WindLord7070Jan 9, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Note what I said in my comment:

Top Nid existed, and sure I agree was more fun because cougar existed pre-6. However it was broken because on release her numbers were stupid. As soon as they nerfed Nid's numbers to be in check she stopped being played top at all, which is why I assume they turned her into a jungler. They realised a binary champ like her should exist with the other binary champs that can't lane; amumu, fiddlesticks, etc. In the jungle.

No when she first got reworked she wasnt played as AD top untill she got a buff that made her op for a patch or two. Then she was nerfed and was still played but not broken. Then they decided to move her into the jungle for no reason at all. She was still being played top at the time and was viable sure she wasnt first pick/ban in the lcs but she was good.

King LeBongJan 6, 20172 votes

You have me worried when you say sizable power, please don't forget that Nidalee had around a 47%(?) average winrate when she was dominating high elo and LCS. Do not make her pick or ban in high elo again, it's cancerous.

I feel like you would be better off looking into mechanics in her kit and making changes rather than just raw number increases, the current iteration of Nidalee is oppressive if even slightly strong and is unfun to play against.

BârdJan 6, 20172 votes

Will these buffs be centered around improving her clear, or will they just be a general power boost?

Maybe let Nidalee play mid/top again?

Master CarlyJan 6, 20172 votes

NO PLEASE NO NO GOD NO

VenedictosJan 6, 20171 votes

Is ricklessabandon going to do the work for her this time around too? He usually comes up with very smart ways to move power from one place of the kit to another. I understand making her traps powerful would tax a lot of her power budget since it's going to be plenty of hidden power, but please do something about them. Currently they are the least interesting part of her kit and the only purpose to them seems to be to proc her passive onto unsuspecting victims.

Also, if you are looking into reverting jungle camp respawn timers, to reduce how much time junglers have to gank after clearing their jungle, then please be careful. She might come back as a monster omnipotent jungler again. As much as I wanna see her being powerful and super-exciting as a high-skill champion, I don't want another year of nerfs every second patch.

Rengar Top LaneJan 6, 20171 votes

{quoted}

We'll be buffing Nid in 7.2. Not sure what changes yet, would be aiming for a fairly sizable power increase given her current state though.

Trying to get a word on Rengar revert, but haven't been able to reach anyone. May you check this out? http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/xJ6dQEJ0-riot-is-the-rengar-revert-completely-removed-from-the-table?show=new

*to op: My apologies for posting irrelevant message on your thread.

Riot, you promised us to look onto Nidalee's current situation. Please don't let us down :c

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