Kayn's issues

EParadoxx··5 votes·999 views

After playing multiple games as Kayn and after reading multiple complaints about him, especially his shadow assassin form, I've come to learn this:

He is by no means weak, people who think he is a straight up bad champion with no visible strengths are wrong.

General pros and cons I picked up would be:

Pros:

-very good jungle clear -incredible mobility -good ways to play around with his ult's untargetability -Rhaast is great in extended fights -Rhaast's W is extremely powerful in teamfights, especially for setting up other ults

Cons:

-Neither of his two identities stand out much compared to other classes -Shadow Assassin's ult damage is extremely underwhelming -In every form, even the primary, the q delay after casting is rather long (this would not be much of an issue when playing the basic form or rhaast but an assassin should have a smoother animation, that second can very easily mean death -currently there is no good reason to pick shadow assassin over rhaast other than that your team needs an assassin and kayn can be one while effectively being able to clear out the jungle, otherwise any other assassin does his job better. -Shadow assassin's passive damage is underwhelming, especially considering that he does not appear to be a champion based around autoattacking much

I am not sure why the design was done in a way that one ability remained unchanged for both forms while all the other ones were changed in some way instead of making all of them unique, but if they were all unique it would be much easier to balance him properly. For example, Rhaast could have a bonus healing but nerfed duration on his E while shadow assassin's Q would get the same treatment as his W, or at least reset his aa so he can apply the passive as quickly as possible, shadow assassins passive bonus damage could apply to spells (it already does, unfortunate mistake on my part, disregard this) , his ult can have a missing %hp damage. These are just some of the suggestions I am sure someone out there already thought of some better ones so write them out. Let your thoughts be heard.

And yes, I am well aware of that he has an ult buff for pbe I am just not convinced that this in particular is his biggest issue and that this is the best way to fix it but it's a step towards something.

16 Comments

Karn Bishop4 votes

Shadow kayn issues: Can't use R without hitting someone first, he learned this skill from zed himself is kayn really that bad of a student? i get why rhaast has this limit because he looks down upon zeds order and skills as a form of weakness but full on shadow kayn retaining the weakness WTH?

Assassin Q death twirl where the only one dying will be you after getting pounded in the face by CC and high dps skills while twirling like a moron.

ultimate does not protect you from AOE abilitys so you can ult the enemy carry and if garen starts spinning, thresh flays you, swain ults you will still take that damage and can kill you which causes ult to fizzle, i am fine with dots hitting him but WTH why can AOE abilitys still hit? bad design.

R is also laughably predictable and rather low damage, i am only afraid of this champion when it is rhaast thats ulting because i know he only has half hp but gonna come out full hp with all CDs up, can't say the same for assassin, heck you can even lifesteal for a few seconds off assassin before the ult even does damage and survive it while killing him.

In short i hate and i mean HATE the fact that riot has the balls to call shadow kayn an assassin, he is not and his skills reflect that.

edit: i forgot one, assassins are at their greatest power curves early and mid game, you often cannot unlock assassin form until late mid game meaning the prime time to be an assassin is gone and over with, early game is a dividing line for assassins transitioning well into the game in general.

Ra1uga2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Karn Bishop,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ifhjOIMy,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-07-24T01:18:19.053+0000)

Shadow kayn issues: Can't use R without hitting someone first, he learned this skill from zed himself is kayn really that bad of a student? i get why rhaast has this limit because he looks down upon zeds order and skills as a form of weakness but full on shadow kayn retaining the weakness WTH?

Assassin Q death twirl where the only one dying will be you after getting pounded in the face by CC and high dps skills while twirling like a moron.

ultimate does not protect you from AOE abilitys so you can ult the enemy carry and if garen starts spinning, thresh flays you, swain ults you will still take that damage and can kill you which causes ult to fizzle, i am fine with dots hitting him but WTH why can AOE abilitys still hit? bad design.

R is also laughably predictable and rather low damage, i am only afraid of this champion when it is rhaast thats ulting because i know he only has half hp but gonna come out full hp with all CDs up, can't say the same for assassin, heck you can even lifesteal for a few seconds off assassin before the ult even does damage and survive it while killing him.

In short i hate and i mean HATE the fact that riot has the balls to call shadow kayn an assassin, he is not and his skills reflect that.

edit: i forgot one, assassins are at their greatest power curves early and mid game, you often cannot unlock assassin form until late mid game meaning the prime time to be an assassin is gone and over with, early game is a dividing line for assassins transitioning well into the game in general.

If i was a squishy, id be scared of an SA kayn. He dumps his combo on you, ults you, comes out, dumps another combo on you. If you aren't dead after 2 combos either he missed or hes really behind.

EParadoxx1 votes

That works when you are picking off tunneling squishies, but good luck unloading both combos while diving the enemy backline in a teamfight without dying as soon as you get out of the ult.

Karn Bishop3 votes

I wish i could play in the games you apparently get where people give you enough time to "dump your whole combo ult and dump another combo on them" is this realm you speak of low silver or bronze where everyone abandons the adc? Because heres how this normally goes you go in with wall walk engage some dps with Q then get hooked or stunned by Leona Nami Thresh Ahri Elise Lux Zyra you then panic after the adc and support or tanky champion autos you down to 1/4th hp and ult into the adc who still has enough hp left you then come out and die while being attacked during the exit animation.

seriously i love how assassin kayn feels but if i cannot win games with such a flawed kit it is a waste of potential to pick him over other assassin junglers, or even WW or other bruiser junglers who can dish out more dps then kayn and survive while doing it.

Ra1uga1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Karn Bishop,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ifhjOIMy,comment-id=000300000001,timestamp=2017-07-24T01:39:03.128+0000)

I wish i could play in the games you apparently get where people give you enough time to "dump your whole combo ult and dump another combo on them" is this realm you speak of low silver or bronze where everyone abandons the adc? Because heres how this normally goes you go in with wall walk engage some dps with Q then get hooked or stunned by Leona Nami Thresh Ahri Elise Lux Zyra you then panic after the adc and support or tanky champion autos you down to 1/4th hp and ult into the adc who still has enough hp left you then come out and die while being attacked during the exit animation.

seriously i love how assassin kayn feels but if i cannot win games with such a flawed kit it is a waste of potential to pick him over other assassin junglers, or even WW or other bruiser junglers who can dish out more dps then kayn and survive while doing it.

Oh....

Well then ill take my bronze 2 ass out of here

Karn Bishop1 votes

i did not know you were bronze at the time of writing this, however you really do need to remember that every champion is viable at that level because weaknesses are not punished, nothing against you personally but bronze has never and will never be a balancing point for champions to determine strength or weakness.

zaire901 votes

Hell even silver you only get a couple of chances to see the adc alone most of the time during mid game they just stay with the team during the mini aram game

Yautja wannabe2 votes

Rek'sai's ult is the same way, but at least her ult does decent damage. Kayn's ult on the other hand needs to have it's audio replaced by a squeaky toy.

Yautja wannabe3 votes

Yeah I agree with everything you've said in this post. Kayn's damage output is very underwhelming. But I would much rather Riot release a weak champion and gradually buff him/her then to do it the other way around. Eheh... remember these assholes? Ekko Camille RekSai

EParadoxx1 votes

Yeah very clearly. I agree completely. I don't want kayn to get overbuffed either, I am even pretty comfortable playing him as he is now, the only problem I have is that for a character who's uniqueness lies in the "choice", it's pretty clear which choice is superior while it should definitely be even and making it even isn't hard either IMO.

Skelenth2 votes

They are buffing SA Kayns ult scaling on the PBE and it'll probably be shipped with the next patch. SA Kanys passive damage does apply to his spells btw.

L Rayquaza1 votes

The passive also applies with item effects, like item 3147

Karn Bishop3 votes

if it does or does not rather does not matter that passive is terrible for a supposedly ability caster based assassin, i liken assassin kayn to an AD katarina but without all the resets and high damage potential.

I hope riot uses kayn as a model for how to NOT build an assassin in the future and if eve rework is anything like this i will be beyond pissed.

EParadoxx1 votes

Oh my bad, well that's awkward. The damage is just insignificant it's hard to notice..

Dominick Destine1 votes

He seems pretty overpowered in both forms.

I would be very disappointed if Riot buffs him.

MLDzXnRRR1 votes

Fiora was also considered "weak" for like 2 weeks after the rework, had to be buffed and then the buffs reverted and we had chain of nerfs. Noone can figure out a champion so fast. I expect Kayne to be the new Camille in the pro play, because of his E.

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