Played since S2 - Diamond Kayle Main - Please revert her back

Chen··8 votes·2,254 views

So to start off, i have been playing League since Season 2. It was a lot of fun, but didn't start with ranked until preseason 4.

I played ALOT of league, i loved this game. Managed to climb from Bronze IV to Plat V my first season, and then finally hit Diamond my second season (S5). She was rarely any good with a team comp, but she was really great at 1v1. She could beat ANYONE 1v1, except Jax.

The thing about Kayle was. Even though she might not have been that good in a team composition, most times, she was still viable pick if you wanted to carry the game as a toplaner. When i was tired of being a teamplayer, picking meta, and picking tanks, or other picks to suit my team for a good teamfighting potential etc. Playing tanks, pokes, peels, you name it, when i was tired of that and wanted to trust my own skills, i played Kayle. Even if you play a losing matchup, just gather exp, ask for jungler to shove wave for it to reset, play it safe, don't give enemy lead. You had range to farm when you were on your "Safe" half of the toplane. And when lategame strucks, you just splitpush, give presence, draw other enemy towards you, then your team can take objectives etc. And if no one comes, you take their base, if people come, you can 1v1 or 1v2. Her weakpoints were CC, long range pokes, and champs to nullify AA, with alot of jumps like Jax. That's why in most cases I didn't feel she was a good team-pick, because enemy team would always have some CC. It was better to push sidelanes and play around that. Her ulti cost 0 mana, and when she cast her ulti, she had free auto-attacks to land.

The Issue with the kayle now, is that she is not what she used to be. She has no range before lv 11. Her laning phase is much worse. She was actually pretty strong lv 1-2. Good waveclear, good pushing potential, pushing wave to enemy tower if your jungler is topside and want to take some camps, and then you can back him up. If enemy tries to 1v1 u lv 1, u would in most cases win it as kayle top, even as lv 2, because of your range advantage.

So you could use your lv 1-2 to zone enemy from first waves, or to push it to support your jungler. So melee matchups were easier before, because at that time u had an advantage really early in the game. And after lv 2-3 when enemy gets gap-closers, no problem! U still have the range. And your W animation doesnt cancel your Autoattack, you could just kite them if they jump on you, by speeding yourself up, slowing them, and then hit the at range. And when they go back to wave, you get free harass again! What happens now in that scenario?

You are now melee pre 11. You have to faceplant yourself to get minions. Your clear speed early in the game is HORRIBLE, compared to before. You have 0 presence, literarily 0 before lv 6. After level 6 you get a TINY presence, but it is still nowhere near the presence of a cannon minion _(Am overexaggerating, but she really is horrible) _ When you try to farm, enemy can get free poke on you, and they dont even need to use their gapclosing abilities to do so. Your damage output early game is much worse than before. So technically any toplaner can win against kayle from lv 1-11. Whereas before she won easily lv 1-2 (even lv 3 sometimes), that is out of the question with the new kayle. So with that in mind, enemy just hit you when you try to kill minion, and when you back off from minions, enemy can just use their gapclose then, and get more free harass, because your damage is nonexistent. So ye, now you lose lv1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10. Good job!

"Winnable, wait till level 16. I get my powerspike." , and that powerspike is still worse than before. Because kayle is an autoattack champion, and now, when she uses her ultimate, guess what. She cant auto attack, and it cost mana. IT is so much more predictable, she is really horrible now. Who cares about the AOE damage? She is not Neeko.

Her 1v1 potential is much worse now, her Q animation is too slow. Her laning potential is much weaker, her early game is much weaker, and tbh, her lategame is much worse now than before. You would say "10% true damage is broken" nah, it is not. Not when she ults, because she cant autoattack for the same duration compared to before, and her ultimate cost mana now.

So TLDR;

  • Laning phase is ruined.
  • Late game Auto-attack damage output reduced (Because of the animation for ultimate's aoe-damage where she can't attack)
  • Her ultimate now cost Mana, it is much more predictable now, you cant "bait" the enemy in the same way as before.
  • Her presence is literarily non-existent before lv 11. At lv 11 she becomes "visible" but she is still nowhere a good champion at that point. --> At level 16, she becomes SOMEWHAT useful, but after that shitty laning phase, and 0 map presence it is really not a "good champion". Because Laning phase is really important, and your map presence also is really important, because that might help your team out. It is a team game, and if your champion is literarily a 50kg heavy backpack, it will pull your team down. Your jungler won't get the same pressure around rift scuttles etc. You can't help him out because you know your champ is useless, your enemy knows this, and will punish you by zoning you from wave, by invading your jungler because they know you can't do anything particular, and enemy laner won't get behind in a 1v1 situation, because you won't be able to kill him if you are "equally good" heck, even if you are a diamond player, a silver toplaner would beat your Kayle as she stands now. She is useless.
  • Enemy toplaner won't fall behind unless they play REALLY bad, overextended like crazy and gets ganked.
  • To people saying "you can use spells to farm" Well. Whats better, have a 2-3 sec cooldown on your old "E" for range to farm that cost minimal mana, or use spells, become empty on mana just to farm, and with that you still have a much worse clearing speed and pushing potential?

I hate this Rework. I had close to 70% winrate on Kayle last season, now i got about a 22% winrate, and that was on a smurf...

Have a nice evening.

23 Comments

Myrmiron8 votes

Hi, Irelia main since late season 2 here, welcome to the club.

Akali is SO HOT2 votes

Is a Season 3 Akali main allowed to join your prestigious club?

Myrmiron2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Akali is SO HOT,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=i46O4JhE,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-03-13T18:15:06.942+0000)

Is a Season 3 Akali main allowed to join your prestigious club?

The more the merrier

Seoshi1 votes

{quoted}

The more the merrier

Early Karma main here.... welcome to MY club

6 Years Unranked1 votes

I lost my club membership in 8.4 Rengar

Myrmiron1 votes

[{quoted}](name=6 Years Unranked,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=i46O4JhE,comment-id=0002000000000001,timestamp=2019-03-14T03:20:11.078+0000)

I lost my club membership in 8.4 Rengar

No refunds

usul12025 votes

Wasn't this... Exactly the goal? Make her actually scale, not some early game strength that also scales? A late game God also wrecking people at level 1/2 seems rather unintuitive...

ESCOBAR hehe5 votes

Well I can understand why people might like the new reworked kayle. I guess she works better as a champ in Midlane (with full AP build, or other builds that doesnt build around attack speed) Because her heal scales well with AP, and it gives alot of movespeed too.

Same with her R, it is really good scaling with AP. So her AP-build might be more viable now compared to before. She might as do better against tanks.

HOWEVER, I totally agree on you with the top-lane presence. It is horrendous. It will be hard to get to late game when you have no presence in lane and can't help out your jungler. You get dived easily, and zoned really easily.

But all in all, I feel she might be better now, and more suitable to teamcomps, midlane and support kayle is better now, while top-lane kayle have become worse. All in all, I feel neutral about the rework.

Karn Bishop5 votes

My main issue with new kayle is that she is apparently not allowed to jungle despite kayle being a jungle/top lane champion historically.

Otherwise her kit is not too bad except for a few things like Q delay being too long, the weird delay on healing that also disrupts auto attacking, and the fact that you lose your stacks when ulting yourself due to how long the delay is which makes ulting others the right choice and ulting yourself always the wrong choice.

They are trying to pigeon hole the champion into one specific role and that NEVER works out well for the champion.

Chen4 votes

Oh yeah there are a lot of things i forgot to mention, but there are just too many things that were better with the old kayle.

  • In matchups against ranged champions, she gets STOMPED harder than ever. Quinn, jayce etc. She can't do anything. She is a melee now, but without escape, and without damage, without gap close. She cant do ANYTHING against them. When she tries to farm, even under turret, enemy will just poke you with their range.
  • Before, she had decent range on her E. She had more damage early game and her damage was Auto attack late game as mentioned. She could 1v1 any adc. But what about now? When she ults, she cant autoattack, much easier to counter, and in addition, it cost mana as stated above, you can't "Surprise" your enemy anymore. People were often like "What, you ultimate doesn't cost mana?" Well, that was one of the best reactions, now i won't be getting anymore of those.
  • TLDR; The new kayle, She loses all matchups, range and melee.
El Peluquero4 votes

Old Kayle's kit made no sense at all. She had a Q with low utility aside from slowing people to run them down, a very useless heal in general, an E with almost no cooldown that turns Kayle from melee to ranged (at this point just turn her into a ranged champ if she has E all the time), and her ult was very simple and straightforward.

Now she makes more sense as a champion, she is supposed to be a scaling late game hypercarry, and as such, she needs to have a bad early. And in terms of her dmg output, I'm very sure her current lvl 16 is much stronger than pre-rework Kayle. That aoe true dmg is massive and the E nuke is insane. Her Q is much better now since its aoe, its a skillshot and it also serves for farming, also her W feels much better now too, not for heals but for movement speed.

Stars Shaper4 votes

These kind of threads are entirely pointless. No rework is getitng reverted, doesn't matter how well thought and deep your thread is.

If you wanted to preserve what made Kayle's core then you should have written something deep and well thought during the period we knew she was up for a VGU in order to let Riot and other players know about it and have a discussion which the Devs could have used as feedback.

I mean, look at MaliciousMetal, he was all over the place when Mordekaiser popped out both as for his speedy rework from CT and after Riot said Morde would need another, more complete one. He made tons of threads explaining what made him, what was sacrificable and what the kind of gameplay ppl expected from the character was.

Ofc I'm not asking you to match his... obsession... nor his dedication. But being quite for the whole time and popping out with how you despise it and that they should revert it after the thing is well and done (and even released for a while) it's just pointless.

Edit:

You guys can rage-downvote as much as you want, it doesn't change the fact that the chance to give feedback in order to preserve what you liked of a character is BEFORE the VGU lands, not after.

Lord Malpercio2 votes

KogMaw's rework got reverted, as did Rengar and LeBlanc's.

Iota Theta2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Malpercio,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=i46O4JhE,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2019-03-14T03:03:18.693+0000)

KogMaw's rework got reverted, as did Rengar and LeBlanc's.

Ah, but they were only reworks in gameplay. Reworks, in the sense of VGU’s, have never been reverted, nor will they likely ever be without extensive work. Not to mentioned some pre-VGUs were binary or unhealthy.

Lord Malpercio1 votes

This is true, but for the most part the VGUs have been VERY successful. Most of them were completely necessary (Looking at you, Poppy and Sion). People can whine about the changes, but I've been fine with almost every VGU except Swain's (They went a little -too- different there, and even they admitted that). That being said, I still acknowledge that some changes to Swain were necessary.

Sukishoo1 votes

Only gameplay reworks such as kog, leblanc and rengar got reverted. However, those who have had full visual and gameplay updates, do not get reverted as they are meant to last much longer.

Chocolatewarrior3 votes

Time to quit and play fortnite instead :D [slayer-jinx-wink] [slayer-jinx-catface] [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Azazel Aerternum2 votes

https://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=Unsung Grandmaster Tier Kayle Top, 71% winrate (New Kayle)

https://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=Azazel%20Aerternum "Bronze 1" Kayle 'Support' 100% winrate (New Kayle)

Well, 100% last 11 games straight, 81% factoring in all matches, including two which had AFK / Inters in them (14 in a row if you factor out the two games with AFK / Inters)

I put that in quotations, b/c Riot likes to use past ratings as a basis for current ones, and let's just say I'm decidedly not 'Bronze 1'.

New Kayle is fine, I just got out of a match with Klepto, where I got a skill orb pre-11, got my ranged at level 10, then got a second orb after that, and got my True Damage + 16 powerspike at level 14.

Lord Malpercio2 votes

Tbh that's WAY too RNG to rely on, the powerspike with Klepto you got. That's like, 1/1000 games status there.

Azazel Aerternum1 votes

Dawg, in general, I'm on a 16 game winstreak as Kayle

And I'm facing anywhere from Bronze 9 edgelords to Plat 9 memelords (generally, the odd Challenger or so thrown in occasionally)

TengenToppaGnar2 votes

Ah, while I agree, I'm forced to also disagree. The problem is the way they went about it. I've made a post before on this. If they want to keep this changed up kit, they need to increase her early game and downplay the late game spike.

Her new heal at least in functionality is a lot better now, since its not actual "single-target" its Her and an ally. The Ultimate is stupid, no joke, but it does encourage you to not use it on yourself... which is what most people did, ha. The new Q is... if it didn't have a wind-up before firing, it would have actually been perfect. As for the way E and exalted work, however, that is a complete joke. Not being ranged until lvl 11 is bad. I miss the old Kayle where her extra range was still considered melee, and could crack Yasuo mains behind their wind-wall, but the late-game that E is just ridiculous. They need to make her early game-play more healthy, or crunch the numbers and make her ranged from the get-go.

The rework can make sense, yet it was so poorly implemented. I understand why you hate it, I also understand, this change can be good if they tweaked shit into something not so damn janky.

Lord Malpercio1 votes

The old E was considered ranged, but it wasn't a projectile - Therefore Yasuo couldn't block it with windwall. I believe there's a few other cases where this is a thing (Azir? Idk off the top of my head.)

Makarakarn1 votes

While I'm not going to spout my play time and high rank before making any of my claims (mainly because I have neither, just wanted to point out that attempt at biasing people you did there), I will say a few things. While I wasn't a fifty billion mastery point infinite games as Kayle challenger, I did play her. And while I do believe they hit her early game a tad bit hard considering how safe she used to be, I overall love the rework. I don't have time to make an essay for your essay, but I will say that I'd like to know how exactly you justify old Kayle late game being better than this Kayle's late game, because from my experience, new Kayle's late game is DRAMATICALLY better.

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