If you do, then the whole concept of an AD support is completely dead.
Sure, it's not the most viable right now. But with Zeke's and Targons I like to have fun with 
support, or other champs that can go AD if ahead and build tank if they don't. I'm sure other people have champs they play it with.
If you remove that, there's no way AD support item at all. Kinda hard to justify that.
Mandang016 votes+1. It'd be a pity for Riot to release yet another mana/mana regen + AP item. Plus, 250 mana? Who opens up the shop and decides that's the amount of mana that will make their build work? For an item targeted at supports, it seems a bit foolish to ask those supports to plan 2 items to solve their mana problems (one of which being new Zeke's if supports are actually going to buy that). The rest of the stats are still awkward too: which supports want both AP and armor? The tank supports don't want the AP, and the squishier supports don't often spring for armor (though they probably will when this drops).
Lastly, as much as I don't want to bash Riot's new items (the problem is the REMOVAL of an item, not the ADDITION of one).... who the hell thought those stats on a buff would be healthy for the game? They'll warp powercurves completely, water down the niche of buff-focused supports, and snowball games pretty hard. Zeke's/Locket/Abyssal as flat auras already snowball to an extent, due to the multiplicative nature of stats, but a scaling buff just exaggerates it. Now when you and the other support both build new Zeke's, but their ADC builds IE while yours doesn't, your Zeke's is now much weaker than theirs. This will only further enforce IE as a must-buy ADC item. BUT AGAIN: the main problem is that they're removing a harmless item to do all of this.
PokladnicaZla1 votesThe community has been demanding an AR item for utlity support fpr a while now.Seems like we finnaly got it,kinda...
Sire Hippington3 votesjust for what price...
nothing against an armor item for mage-supports, but why sacrifice Zeke's for it, and why that 50% crit steroid... also, do we need another cdr item for supports? They really need an utillity mastery that converts overflowing cdr into something usefull...
ButterBladesX2 votesand they always talk about "diversity" while they are actually removing it
LoL Ergo Urgot13 votesI was playing 
. My team was 
.
kJs11 votesRiot's trying really hard to come up with "original" "unique" ideas. A stattik shiv for a bot lane duo isn't that amazing or unique IMO.
Let us keep and you can add your completely new item.
Better yet, buff Zeke's Herald to give armor and there you go, item diversity.
DJ Di08 votesNot the most viable right now.
And it has...when? Other than cheesy kill lanes I really don't see how this is bad in any way for variety.
This can really help out some supports like 
YOU BEEN WARNED20 votesKill lanes are good for people who can't deal with the ADC role. Playing against ADC or playing as ADC.
In my case, both statements are true. I play kill lane support and use Zeke's.
Just to name a few, I am very upset with this replacement proposal. I would be grateful if this is added, and the original item remains.
DJ Di07 votes[{quoted}](name=YOU BEEN WARNED,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hew4VFOm,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-06-30T01:58:10.544+0000)
Kill lanes are good for people who can't deal with the ADC role. Playing against ADC or playing as ADC.
In my case, both statements are true. I play kill lane support and use Zeke's.
Just to name a few, I am very upset with this replacement proposal. I would be grateful if the original item remains.
This sounds mean but all you're telling me is that Zeke's Herald should stay an extremely niche item so people who don't want to take the time to learn about the ADC role can play a few kill lanes.
Also; wouldn't this actually help 'support' Gangplank?
He's use both 50% crit chance and 20% AP really well.
Murphys Lawyer8 votes[{quoted}](name=DJ Di0,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hew4VFOm,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2015-06-30T02:02:07.169+0000)
This sounds mean but all you're telling me is that Zeke's Herald should stay an extremely niche item so people who don't want to take the time to learn about the ADC role can play a few kill lanes.
Also; wouldn't this actually help 'support' Gangplank?
He's use both 50% crit chance and 20% AP really well.
I use it for , and use it to great effect. It is the perfect low-cost, decent-yield team AD/sustain booster and gives him the added bonus of decent CDR; this works perfectly with his passive, making everybody that throws out an AA hit a little harder and last a little longer. It may be a niche item but dammit that's my niche you're talking about! All the changes accomplish is limiting the "champion diversity" Riot always touts even more.
The solution is simple, people: just make a new item. Leave Zeke's be what it is, and if you think it's so useless then buff it a little or something! Don't make it what it's not supposed to be!
DJ Di02 votesI use it for
The solution is simple, people: just make a new item. Leave Zeke's be what it is, and if you think it's so useless then buff it a little or something! Don't make it what it's not supposed to be!
I do agree that Riot states they want diversity but kill off some with every change (nerfing ranged junglers, deleting Magus, etc.), so if they just make this a new item and keep Zeke's Herald they way it is on live, I'd be fine with that.
However, if it was between this and the new version on the pbe solely (which is probably what's going to happen, since it just recently happened with Runeglaive and Magus), I'm in favor of the new version.
I think they want to phase out auras because they prefer things not to be determined by invisible stats that are up 100% of the time.
Murphys Lawyer1 votes[{quoted}](name=DJ Di0,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hew4VFOm,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-06-30T02:14:44.817+0000)
I do agree that Riot states they want diversity but kill off some with every change (nerfing ranged junglers, deleting Magus, etc.), so if they just make this a new item and keep Zeke's Herald they way it is on live, I'd be fine with that.
However, if it was between this and the new version on the pbe solely (which is probably what's going to happen, since it just recently happened with Runeglaive and Magus), I'm in favor of the new version.
I think they want to phase out auras because they prefer things not to be determined by invisible stats that are up 100% of the time.
I'm not fine with it. It'll just shove already struggling champ niches even further out and make the ones already in the meta that much more ingrained--not to mention toxic--with fewer and fewer viable responses to them to work with. That smacks of exactly what they're purportedly trying to avoid, and it strikes me as very foolish to go down that path.
DJ Di05 votesI'm not fine with it. It'll just shove already struggling champ niches even further out and make the ones already in the meta that much more ingrained--not to mention toxic--with fewer and fewer viable responses to them to work with. That smacks of exactly what they're purportedly trying to avoid, and it strikes me as very foolish to go down that path.
.....But this is helping the less picked champions :I
Are 
seen as much as
?
Murphys Lawyer3 votes[{quoted}](name=DJ Di0,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hew4VFOm,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-06-30T03:14:57.294+0000)
.....But this is helping the less picked champions :I
Are
I see them far more often than you think, some more than others but all with a decent enough frequency. And they have their own tools to work with without dipping into other already less picked champions' toolkits. As it stands, the reworked Zeke's just replaces something that shouldn't be. If they made it a new item and gave the current live Zeke's a small buff or adjustment, that'd be different, but they're not. They're turning an item without comparable alternatives stat-wise into something that has plenty of comparable alternatives stat-wise, and giving nothing in return.
Sightless661 votesIt's debatable if the new Zeke's has comparable alternatives stat-wise. There isn't really a good armor item for utility supports. Frozen heart kind of works, except that it can be an overload of armor when you don't have HP to back it up, and tanks very often pick it up themselves and take that option away from you. Having a low-cost glacial shroud item that I can get on Sona or Janna or Karma is giving me an option I don't have right now.
I'd also say Black Cleaver is pretty good as a comparable alternative. CDR, health, AD, and a team-assisting passive. Would probably be a superior purchase to Zeke's in most situations on someone like Jarvan support.
Br4ndon3 votesDJ Di0 is right. The new Zeke's will help make less played supports more desirable. Even if it is booting out the unconventional supports, I think its for the better.
The niche it filled was too specific to justify the item in its current state. I dont think we should hold back a community of players who use champions in their designed role because a few players use champions in roles they werent meant to be played.
I know youre going to disagree because youve played a few good games as trynd support and built zekes or whatever, but just think about the larger community its going to positively going to effect. Instead of the almost none existent community its going to negatively effect.
draqxqard13 votesMany extremely niche items exist in this game like 
and so forth.
Sadly, learning a role can be incredibly difficult for some people. I have played the game for over 3 years, reached high gold yet I cannot ADC for the life of me. I can relate to people running off-supports; bring a ton of utility to the team despite having strong kill presence in lane, so does & 
so why the discrimination ?
weren't kicked out of botlane, they were welcomed for playstyle and diversity. There is no reason to hate on bruisers going botlane, we should all get along. :)
Rew71110 votesYou forgot about and 
.
Braum gets a lot of health for his Q and as a tank.
Taric is amazing with this. Bonus for Q. Bonus for his already bonus on R.
Kurogaze1 votesThe issue here is that bruiser don't have the "usual" characteristic needed by a support. The support usually must:
Without going into specific champions, the issue is that bruisers basically are never able to satisfy the third one. Being a bruiser without items is... awful. You're at a fraction of your potential, your job should be to dive backlines but you can't inflict enough damage and quickly enough to do real damage, and not enough tankiness to survive.
I'm sure a lot of people will give me huge lists of games where they kicked asses and carried the game as, say, lee sin or rengar support. But the issue is, those are "troll" picks. They win because since they're never played, the enemy doesn't know how to play against them, and end up losing the lane, hard. They win because they balance the lack of farm by making the life of the enemy botlane a living hell. But if those picks started getting actually played... everyone would stop playing them, because once you know how to counter them, gg they stop bringing damage and bring very little utility in teamfight, so they become near useless.
A good Ult, or grab can be game-changing without requiring them to own a single item. That's why they're considered better as supports than any bruiser.
Sire Hippington1 votesThere are enough ad-champs that bring alot utillity with little gold. J4 and Lee wouldn't have been high tier junglers through out nearly all seasons if they wouldn't bring great utillity even with low gold. J4 has similar engage power to leona and a lot inbuilt tankiness while buffing the physical damage of his team quite well with q armorshred and E as-boost. Gp also is suprisingly funktional with little gold(and with the Q bonus gold and support masteries, he can earn quite a bit) His E+zekes is basically a BF for the entire team with MS and AS on top, while his ult has massive magical aoe base-damage. With passive and Iceborn, he can also peel quite well. And no, getting iceborn ans zekes on support gp isn't unrealistic, thats~5k gold, with FoM, boots and sightstone thats 9k gold. In most games i play, supports end the game with 11-13k, so atleast 2k gold to spend on pinks and normal wards(i rarly see supports buying more than 10 stealth and 5 pinkwards in a game, which would be 1250g)
Also, ashe is a great support, ult for engage, passive slow for peel, even on aoe due W, E fr more vision, and with tBC, she can shred armor like a boss. Her harresmpotential in lane also is really massive.
TL;DR: there are enough ad-champs that can work well on a support salary
YOU BEEN WARNED6 votesThis sounds mean but all you're telling me is that Zeke's Herald should stay an extremely niche item so people who don't want to take the time to learn about the ADC role can play a few kill lanes.
I'd hardly say "few kill lanes" really, I only mentioned the ones I commonly use. There are more kill lane candidates than there are ADCs.
Are some more valid kill laners bot that I do not use. Removing Zeke's takes from their potential in such a team composition.
I apologize I wasn't clear, I edited my response a short while after posting to mention that I welcome the new item; I just wish for the old item to stay as well. Perhaps give the new item a new name? The black dong for example ? 
DJ Di02 votes[{quoted}](name=YOU BEEN WARNED,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hew4VFOm,comment-id=0000000000000002,timestamp=2015-06-30T04:46:36.548+0000)
I'd hardly say "few kill lanes" really, I only mentioned the ones I commonly use. There are more kill lane candidates than there are ADCs.
Are some more valid kill laners bot that I do not use. Removing Zeke's takes from their potential in such a team composition.
I apologize I wasn't clear, I edited my response a short while after posting to mention that I welcome the new item; I just wish for the old item to stay as well. Perhaps give the new item a new name? The black dong for example ?
Lmao, Black Dong.
Maybe something that alludes to the duo nature of the new passive?
I'm thinking something mushy like Zeke's Harmony or Zeke's Liason.
Daedalus8712 votesWhen I look at those champions, I ask myself "Which one really wants a Zeke?" and the answer I come up with is none of them. If ahead, most of them would like more damage than Zeke offers, and if behind, they'd rather have more tank than Zeke offers.
I suppose that you could use it with another half offensive/half defensive item, but then I think that there are still better of the half and half items.
YOU BEEN WARNED6 votesI would argue not, sure now that 
grants 20% CDR Zeke's is less significant, however it's power lies in the aura moreso than it's raw stats. The fact two kill lane champions are botlane means much higher chances of having 3 or more AD champions on your team.
Whichever way you look at it, 60+ AD and 30%+ lifesteal are no joke come lategame. Even if it isn't being effective due to enemy stacking armor, it helps a lot killing objectives like baron and towers much faster. The lifesteal is often just icing on the cake.
Daedalus8711 votesTo be honest, I wasn't even thinking about Cleaver when talking about the half defensive/half offensive items.
But really most AD champs would rather have the extra 30% pen than the 20 AD and 10% life steal.
YOU BEEN WARNED2 votesYeah but you don't buy it for yourself, it's a team buy like 
.
Dengeden2 votesIf you play a kill lane, you might as well go full AD. You need to snowball anyway. The scaling with Zeke's is trash.
YOU BEEN WARNED5 votesThe game doesn't always end in 20 minutes, most kill lanes are ADCasters that benefit from HP and CDR making the item an attractive purchase given they can sacrifice an item slot.
Need Gold 4 Tent2 votesI love kill lanes but I gotta say one thing though:
As a kill lane support, Zeke's does not help me kill stuff. Phage, Brutalizer, Sheen and their products do. The only champ I run this item on is support GP (because of the aura not because it's AD), and even that I play as a 0 damage full utility support (which works by the way).
YOU BEEN WARNED6 votesI think that's like saying GP's E does not help you kill stuff late game. I'd like to remind that the item gives two long swords to every nearby ally.
In total in a teamfight, Zeke's gives 100 AD and 50% lifesteal. The highest combination of both stats while granting enormous amounts of CDR and decent HP to the holder, so that they would stay alive and maintain the aura.
I think the item's purpose and design is pretty clear actually, it's just hard to appreciate for many people because it provides an "ok" amount of stats for everbody, similar to . Have you ever actually said "wow, 
is not dealing a lot of damage to our team, the aegis aura sure is working!!"
Not really, it is just 20 MR and is unlikely to be very noticible but it exists and you have to be aware of what it does. Just like having 
's passive on your team, you might not feel there is something but you are actually regenerating faster than the enemy team and factor it in as bonus hp, just like having potential unused shields in a teamfight 
.
Some minuscule things are difficult to see, but definitely make a big difference when put under the scope like that "Damage to Champions" graph at the end of the game.
Zorae427 votesI don't want it as an AP sup...
It seems like it'll be a 'must buy' to boost your ADC (50% crit will be ridic). I like playing full AP sups (Sona, Morg, Nami, etc) and getting Grail/Morello, Ludens, Zhonya's, Lichbane, etc after sightstone. Now I'm going to have to delay my build even longer to get an item that will only slightly benefit me... It's already hard to feel like I'm contributing much late game since my build is so far behind, now it's going to feel even worse. I'll have to stay leashed to my ADC and only act as a buff bot. Which sounds so rewarding...
Heckin Support5 votesI could say the same thing except bring up the heavy AP supports like 
and how this item will really make them even more viable. ]
Supports need more variety in items if you ask me, and this is a great way to bring even more variety into the support role. Maybe riot could add a different item to bring up AD supports but this item belongs to those AP supports, let us have this please.
Lorinne9 votesThey can just add the item without replacing Zeke's with it. MOST supports are AP (or tank) so don't act like we don't have options. Nearly every support item is catered to AP.
And it doesn't "bring variety" to basically delete one of the most unique items in the game.
Heckin Support1 votesThey can just add the item without replacing Zeke's with it. MOST supports are AP (or tank) so don't act like we don't have options. Nearly every support item is catered to AP.
And it doesn't "bring variety" to basically delete one of the most unique items in the game.
It's not "deleting" the item its improving it so people would buy it more. I can't tell you the last time I've seen a support build this item ad or ap. They are making items more tempting to supports that want to branch out to more ap heavy supports. I understand you AD supports wanting something but this is for the ap heavy supports, let us have this. It's so gold efficient so we don't have to build actual ap items when we could be building something to help our adc.
I feel for you ad supports I really really do, but AP supports that can really shine will seriously be able to bring something to the table now. AD supports deserve an item, you're right. But this item is ours just let us have this. Hopefully riot will branch out and maybe make something more for AD supports in the future. But the people who want to play those off meta supports Like I mentioned will not be able to play those and not get flamed.
Lorinne1 votesI'm not an AD support (usually, though I have done it); all of my favorite supports are AP (Nami, Lulu, Zyra, Sona, etc). We already have plenty of options. And this IS removing the item. It changes literately EVERYTHING. There are zero similarities between this item and the old herald, it's completely unrecognizable, it is for all intents and purposes the removal of Zeke's Herald.
And don't act like AP supports don't already shine. ALL "viable" supports are either AP or tank. Annie is probably one of the most AP-heavy supports and is also one of the top 5 (if not higher) at pretty much all levels of play, even the LCS. I see her at least one or two game(s) everytime I watch the LCS. And I've seen pretty much every mage as a support at one time or another, from Brand to Karthus to Veigar (as I recall there was even a Veigar support in the EU LCS last year or so). And it's MUCH easier to bring one of those bot lane than ANY AD (even the one AD, Ashe, who is classified as a support). I don't see how you can act like AP supports are suffering when they have literately ALWAYS been the main or the secondary option for a support. You act like this change will make or break AP supports or that they won't be viable without it - that's just not true. I definitely would like to have it, but I don't think it's right to replace Zeke's Herald with it.
Zeke's is pretty much the most unique item in the game. I'd rather them just flat out delete it, name and all, then have them just turn it into yet another AP support item or support item with yet another active. It just feels wrong to warp it into something unrecognizable, and to me there's no reason to do that. They could easily just give this item a new name and keep the old Zeke's, as well (maybe even rework the old Zeke's a bit to make it more viable while at the same time keeping its identity). Item diversity isn't created by deleting unique items or changing them beyond recognition to an item that will become a must-buy on some supports. "Must-buy" isn't "diverse".
Greenheath5 votesJust seems to lame to completely remove a unique item (that has some niche use) and replace it with another cdr ap item with a unique passive for supports to build. Just leave it in and add another item.
Muh diversity tho.
JustMyBassCannon4 votes"Riot, please don't make a support item into a better support item."
Oh, wait, you thought they intended it for bruisers?
Sire Hippington7 votesIt's more "Riot, don't take my spoon and turn it into a Chair." Getting a new chair is nice, but you simply can't eat your soup with it.
JustMyBassCannon2 votesIt's not like turning a spoon into a chair, it's like turning a sundial into a digital clock with an alarm. Sure, the sundial is cool, and in perfect conditions, you can be proud that you know how to use it, but it's ultimately anachronistic and not very spectacular.
Sire Hippington4 votessundial into a clock would still preserve the original idea and just improve it, serveing still the same purpose. The new Zeke's and the old one however have as much in common as a a spoon and a chair.
I wouldn't have a broblem if they would upgrade the sundail into a digital clock, but frankly, they exchange it for a lawnmower. Yes, a lawnmower is nice, more modern and probably also more valuable, but it simply doesn't serve the same purpose at all. I'd rather keep my sundail in that case and buy an lawnmower in adition.
Drukyul6 votesplus I already have 3 other chairs and I really don't need another
Zerana4 votesSolution:
AP version- Zekes Herald
200 health
35 AP
In an aoe of 1800 allies gain 20 magic damage per attack and 10% spellvamp
Unique active: Allies in a 1500 aoe gain cc immunity for 2 seconds
AD version- Stark's Fervor
200 health
35 AD
In an aoe of 1800 allies gain 10 % lifesteal and 20 AD
Unique active: Allies in and aoe of 1500 (including minions) gain 20% attack speed for 8 seconds
There I just game some Item diversity for everyone and buffed both types of supports so Riot doesn't have to wait 3 years now before making an ACTUAL ad support. NO Thresh does not count he stacks armor and some ap on his passive, I mean an actual one not a person building attack damage pretending to be one.
YOU BEEN WARNED4 votesI'm in.
Wait a sec, I just realized 2 sec CC immunity. That's nuts! I recommend having another relevant passive like "enchant next spell to deal 5%~10% more damage scaling with holder AP" or something.
Sire Hippington3 votesI agree, whie zekes can use some changes, it should stay an ad-item, allowing champions like ashe or J4 to support.
If you feel the need of yet another ap-support item, especially one that says Adc-slave more than any other item and has the potential to break the game with an absurd crit steroid, go ahead and bring it, but do so as new item.
Zeke's and his ancestor Stark's always have been suportive items for ad-cahmps that give lifesteal and benefit physical damage. If you want to Rework Zeke's, please let it stay in it's niche as support item form ad-champs for ad-champs. The planned change takes everything Zeke's has ever been, throws it out the window and does something totall different. It's like Karmas rework, you mostly removed a champ, replaced it with a new one but kept the name, which felt like mockery vs the fans of old karma, saying them there chamo still is there even though it clearly isn't. Don't make the same mistake with Zeke's.
Also, we already have plenty of different ap-support items for many different situations. some off them are rarly seen and could use a little bit love tough. I'd rather prefer puting some more work on item's like , the active could use a buff, like increasing the reveal duratiion and the speed of the ghosts, or , let it proc from buffs like Nunu's W or Zilean's E to make it appealing for more differnt champs...
Cenobite Azaziel3 votesWhy don't riot make suport itemization like jungle? base item, different upgrades, diferent enchantments?
KoKoboto3 votesPlayed old Ashe as support with Zekes and new Black Cleaver for max cdr and arrows everywhere, honestly I found it really fun as it was a new support style and I think taking out Zekes herald will make any AD supports bad because its a pretty big thing for AD supports
Cerbearus2 votesNah man, Riot wants to keep buffing mage supports like annie until all other supports are completely unviable
iainB854 votesTank supports (Thresh, Nautilius, Leona, etc.) are quite viable too.
Just no AD.
ComannderShepard2 votesI don't see why they have to change it. Why not keep zekes and add in a whole new item #strategicdiversity
IIDAXII2 votesI do like zeke's as it is now. But the only support champion that even comes close to using ad is . I would really like it if riot made another support that either had ad ratios or was aa reliant. Also they should buff it a little bit or give it another level.
