Clearly Lee Sin will always be a priority in Riot's meta, but does this initial Q need to deal damage? Free cast low cool down gap closer needing to deal damage even if Lee Sin doesn't initiate, which is the purpose of the skill essentially.... Make the player decide whether or not to engage/gap close on an enemy to force a team fight or go for a kill.
Seems excessive for Q to have so many functions and deal damage @ no cost.
Auurun27 votesI feel like it's the least annoying thing about lee sin actually...
kile1472 votesWell Riot is all about having clear strengths and weaknesses, if that initial damage is not part of his core identity it's just unnecessary strength. Get rid of the initial damage and slightly increase the execute damage on the second cast. Now using Q as an initiator is considerably less rewarding.
RexSaur17 votesThey just need to remove wardhopping from Lee, then he wont be faceroll OP anymore.
GULAG 4 U24 votesLee sin may be overpowered but he's not faceroll and he's not close to being faceroll overpowered neither.
Troy24262114 votesLee sin may be overpowered but he's not faceroll and he's not close to being faceroll overpowered neither.
Oh please. Lee Sin is not difficult to do well as.
The only time Lee Sin becomes difficult is mid to late game when he no longer has enough free damage to 100:0 you from one combo and actually has to make plays; he's difficult to master for this reason.
Jet Sett11 votesNot every opponent is a potato waiting for you to ward hop behind them, and not every team hates your target and is willing to let you combo them without any help or peel.
Stephenizgod5 votesoh right I forgot the ability to block him from placing wards... Once he is within range, you need to immediately flash/dash or he will ward hop behind you and there isn't much you can do without point click CC.
Jet Sett1 votesThat's IF he can get in range! Some champs, whether it's their build or their kit, can get away from Lee or can at least get to a position where he's much less effective and would be rendered unable to attack.
Stephenizgod4 votesThere are some champions that can deal with Jayce, it doesn't make him any less bs. There are some champions that can deal with Camille's ultimate, doesn't mean its not a bs mechanic. There are some champions that can deal with Syndra's Q+R 100-0 combo, doesn't mean its not bs that she can do that.
If your only counterplay to a certain champion or mechanic is pick champion X, that is bad design. You can't go "oh damn if I had known they were going to pick this champion, I would have picked that champion, but I didn't know and therefore we are at a disadvantage" because that is not how the game is suppose to be played. This isn't Rock Paper Scissors.
Jet Sett1 votesLet me rephrase; PLENTY of champs can get away from Lee because until he gets a DMP he won't catch you 100% of the time. And proper warding against a Lee Sin can also be used to avoid his engage.
Stephenizgod1 votesI want you to name every single champion that can easily get away from Lee Sin and i want you to explain exactly how they can do it.
Nah Im just playing lol I agree there are some champions that actually can deal with Lee Sin ward hopping behind them, the issue is that not everyone on your team will have the ability to do so and he punishes that so much harder than he really deserves to. He will just keep fucking that one person and suddenly fed 100-0 anyone Lee is coming at your face.
You basically just need to flash before he gets near you or you are dead, this is part of what makes him so BS (that and his ridiculous R damage).
Leona OP1 votes
Lee sin coming to gank? after he lands his q, e him, timing it so it lands the exact second he dashes to you. timed right, you two will simply switch places
:^)
Stephenizgod1 votesThat is awesome, but also now he is behind you and your ADC is all alone. I kind of wish they clashed and dealt damage to each other :D I feel like Leona would win that.
Leona OP1 votesyou do got a point, I am speaking from the perspective of leona top however, my favorite way to escape ganks when i see JG coming from behind is to use their position to carry me to safety. I have had multiple times where lee sin comes to gank, I E behind him and in a panic to land his ult he kicks me to safety instead.
Stephenizgod1 votesoh i shld try Leona top, what mastery you take?
Leona OP1 votesI prefer thunderlords but cotc is also a good option on her
I prefer thunderlords because Leona top is all about getting an early lead and snowballing with it, without a significant lead you basically become a 2nd tanky support, with a strong gold lead you become a brutal tanky assassin in the midgame, but your ability to 1 shot people falls off if you reach lategame and you eventually do have to commit to being a tank, engaging/peeling for your team as needed.
with cotc you commit more to being a tank and engager for your team, the ONLY reason I do not prefer it is that I play solo 95% of my game and cant always count on a good followup from my team, thunderlords gives you the chance to crush your lane then roam mid and crush them too, without thunderlords and more damage oriented runes you'll often run low on mana before you can secure a kill on your opponent
hey, add me if you want any more of an in depth explanation, things like your item build and your playstyle have to be changed significantly depending on if you are behind or ahead, and if your team is behind/ahead as well, I have actually been playing it a lot less because the current meta has made it much more difficult to be impactful.
Stephenizgod1 votesI am seriously going to try this next time I play lol it sounds like a lot of fun. I think Ill try out Thunderlords and if that isn't working Ill try to use CotC until I get the gist of what I am suppose to do.
devdev4632 votesOh please. Lee Sin is not difficult to do well as.
Ward hop next to them>Ult>Land Q while they're still snared from your ultimate>Q again+damage combo
The only time Lee Sin becomes difficult is mid to late game when he no longer has enough free damage to 100:0 you from one combo and actually has to make plays; he's difficult to master for this reason.
He's about as hard as a champion really gets in league.
Nameless Voice17 votesI have no problem with the initial Q dealing a small amount of damage.
What bothers me about it far more is how long the duration of the mark is.
If a Lee Sin comes in to gank you and hits his Q, you can't flash away to avoid him until either a) he dashes to you or b) the mark wears off.
On paper, three seconds doesn't sound like a very long time, but in a gank situation three seconds where you can't flash or use other mobility to escape is a very, very long time. It also gives the Lee player too much time to judge the situation before committing to an attack.
Spaceman5pff9 votesActually, if he hits the Q near max range, flashing can put you outside of the range of the 2nd activation (if you didn't know, he can't fly in on you if you are too far away, even with a mark)
Also, flashing can put him under tower / too far away from his team to be safe.
Nameless Voice4 votesI did know (though it's usually not applicable in the scenario I was describing), but upvoted for spreading knowledge.
SnakDatSmilesBak9 votesHonestly no and i'd be ok with them moving all the damage to the second part of his q. Anyone wanna explain why this isnt a good idea?
Asayake 5150glow2 votesHonestly no and i'd be ok with them moving all the damage to the second part of his q. Anyone wanna explain why this isnt a good idea?
The base damage is insane. It's like Poppy all over again.
CasterGilgamesh1 votesbut poppy has high base damages and is naturally tanky lee sin is not naturally tanky the only thing making him hard to kill is his pathetic shield which he uses for mobility not even for the shield part since its shit..
Asayake 5150glow2 votesbut poppy has high base damages and is naturally tanky lee sin is not naturally tanky the only thing making him hard to kill is his pathetic shield which he uses for mobility not even for the shield part since its shit..
Lee also has pretty damn high base damages, 100 damage + 8% of missing health at rank 1 with attack speed boosts is pretty insane.
Sounds a little op...? For only 3 damaging abilities he should have to give something up.
I Q5 votesHe'd be useless in all forms of teamfights, since his Q will become telegraphed. You also wouldnt have any ranged abilities to poke with, which nearly every champ has
Spaceman5pff1 votesCounterargument:
How would the Q be any more "telegraphed" than it already is? In teamfights, his Q1 is far more useful as a threat than for damage, pressuring people into playing differently while Q1 is on them, this would be unaffected by Q1 dealing no damage.
This would be a good time to really solidify that Lee is balanced around jungling. The ability to poke from range is not why anybody would pick Lee Sin jungle. This would not be the first time Riot has decided to balance a champion for one specific role. Thresh and Leona are great examples of champions that were created as a solo laner concept, but in practice were found better suited to support, and were then balanced strictly around being supports. Riot has also changed several other champions to put them onto just one role / a different role for balance purposes. 
also come to mind.
TL:DR - Damage on Q1 is nearly irrelevant in teamfights, the power lies mostly in the threat of engage at this time. He doesn't need poke as a Jungler, at now point in LoL history have junglers been picked for their poke prowess, even Nidalee with formidable poke was contested for her high clear speed and powerful early skirmishes. This would be a good time to publicly solidify Lee as a jungler. Don't act like his laning matters, it hasn't forever now.
I Q1 votesQ1 provides poke and a threat, using it ONLY for a threat is like throwing Viktor ult infront of someone to make them walk away; its just wasting a CD
Spaceman5pff1 votesWasting a 7-4 second CD basic ability is not the same as wasting a 100-60 second CD ultimate.
Also, if you are picking Lee Sin over another jungler for his MAYBE ~200 damage single target lategame poke, then you are either lying to me, or just plain stupid.
I Q1 votesIt doesnt matter that I dont "pick him" for it, its that he will literally be more useless in teamfights then he already is.
Spaceman5pff1 votesHe has a TARGETED knockback, that can knockup 4 additional enemy champions.
It has good damage to ALL of those champions plus it does damage to the extra champs equal to a % of target HP. How is he useless in teamfights?
Furthermore, I did not say you were picking Lee for poke, I said it would be an issue if you used his poke as your reasoning to pick lee over another jungler. Obviously if you can type a full sentence, you aren't picking lee SOLELY for his poke.
I Q1 votesAlso, if you are picking Lee Sin over another jungler for his MAYBE ~200 damage single target lategame poke
Yes you did say I picked him for poke.
It has good damage to ALL of those champions plus it does damage to the extra champs equal to a % of target HP. How is he useless in teamfights?
I didn't say he is useless, I said he would become MORE useless then he already is. Without his Q poke he might end up turning in to an "ult bot" lategame; like Taric.
He has a TARGETED knockback, that can knockup 4 additional enemy champions.
I shouldn't have to make those calculation and outplay the enemy team JUST to be useful in a teamfight.
Spaceman5pff1 votes" I said it would be an issue if you used his poke as your reasoning to pick lee over another jungler."
"Also, if you are picking Lee Sin over another jungler for his MAYBE ~200 damage single target lategame poke"
Do you see how I qualified it as a factor in part, not a sole reason? Or do I have to assume your weren't lying to me about picking lee for poke, but rather the other option?
I Q1 votesIt's a factor of what makes him viable, taking it away could make him not viable. People hate high skill cap champions, so they ask for them to be gutted. Azir, Kalista, Lee Sin, Ekko, and Yasuo are all getting that treatment. But riot has been smart enough not to take things out of their kits that have been needed.
IcyPepper7 votesBut then he wouldn't be able to poke.
...
Oh, right. I get it now.
Xeruon5 votesThat would mean Riot would have to do one of two things to him:
a. Move the damage of the 1st part of Q to the 2nd part, giving it a 180% AD ratio and 340 base damage at rank 5.
b. Buff some other part of his kit.
If they decide to roll with the former, Lee's burst damage would significantly increase throughout all stages of the game, given that he lands his Q. (Which isn't that hard to do, considering the best way to gapclose with Lee is to wardhop into near-point-blank range.) This would give you even less time to do something against him in the event of a gank where he lands his Q.
If they decide to pick the latter, then some other part of his kit is gonna get a major buff, considering that applying this change would mean that his Q literally loses half it's damage. Now, don't get me wrong, I hate to play against Lee as much as the next guy, but no champion deserves something like this unless they get an equal compensation.
Blackstone012 votesIsn't there an option 3? Just nerf it?
Orangesilk4 votesYes it does, this might sound insane but, it makes him WORSE at towerdiving.
The damage is almost negligible as it is, but he has to MARK you to dash at you, this means the second he marks you under turret he HAS to dash at you (or start eating towershots for free).
This stops him from simply marking you, walking to you under turret and then hopping to you if you try to get away.
DemoGuide4 votes3 things i hate about Lee the most:
SpecterVonBaren1 votesNo, why does he need tacked on lifesteal and spellvamp? Why not just remove some of the unnecessary crap in his kit by getting rid of that and strengthening his shield?
Spaceman5pff1 votesBecause this is actually a solution to him having excessive burst mitigation. The idea here is that - in the long run - he has X amount of sustain. If he were to still reach X by only a shield, that would also translate to increased burst damage mitigation.
This mix of sustain + a shield is how he is reaching a specific level of jungle sustain without being too durable against burst damage.
GrReaper961 votesMy problem is why does he get 30% lifesteal and spellvamp? That sht needs to be toned down. In fact why even spellvamp his only magic skill is his E
Spaceman5pff1 votesTo increase his jungle durability + map uptime potential without his shielding being absurd.
Exactly what I stated above.
GrReaper962 votesHis shield has a max value of 280 + 80% AP. Although he doesnt build AP, thats actually the highest non-ultimate base shield in the game besides Yasuos passive, which is broken anyways. Not to mention it shield 2 people. And to top that off, he also gets 30% lifesteal and spellvamp, which is higher than anybody else in the entire game. So yeah, both are pretty absurd as it is.
Spaceman5pff1 votesYes, it has a large value in the LATER stages of the game, however when jungle sustain is in question his shield will be level 1, providing a 40 damage shield for 2 seconds.
2 seconds, by the way, is one of the shortest shield durations in the game.
When jungle sustain is in question, his W will be level 1, providing 10 lifesteal for 4 seconds.
It is important to remember that these values, as far as jungle sustain goes, are irrelevant unless they are the level 1 W values.
VexingRaven1 votesTo increase his jungle durability + map uptime potential without his shielding being absurd.
Exactly what I stated above.
Why does Lee need this? Plenty of other junglers get by without nearly as much jungle durability. Amumu has nothing for sustain, just a damage reduction, for example.
NvestmentPlanker1 votestaking away the initial Q damage would make lee sin a jungle only player. he would be unable to last hit from a safe distance. his Q initial damage is not a problem.
Spaceman5pff3 votesLee has not been a relevant laner for a long time now.
He would not be the first champion to have their viable roles narrowed in order to improve the balance of the game overall:
TyroneWatermelon1 votes"Free" still an easy to sidestep skillshot tho. His Q should just deal max health damage,so it wouldn't burst squishes that hard.
statelesskiller2 votesslap a AD ratio on the max health damage and yeah it will be fine
i dont want that poppy shit where its like 8% max health damage at level 1 . . . TWICE
