Reworked Kayle is a total failure

Veribitsu··4 votes·7,000 views
U.GG LoL Kayle Build & Runes Guide Top Jungle Mid Bot Support S9

Hey. Can we have a quick chat about Kayle rework, and how it killed a champ, and the feeling of playing it? Okay, ready? Lets start with abbilities. (For your awareness i want to tell u i was playing her in the jungle)

-First comes Q wich is a total joke and bullsh$t, i mean yes i know it reduces armor and mr (wich is total nessesary with guinsoo, true dmg, atk speed base, and % dmg from various sources), but it also is goddamn imposible to hit on an agile target, or to chase someone.

-W that is an pretty decent spell if u take down this goddamn overlonged animation, pathetic base heal and a little bit to low ratio (heal)

-Okay now comes E that is a good spell aside from not beeing aa reset but aa breaker (and aside from things i will explain further in the post)

-R that is an absolute dogsh$t, what kind of idiot thout about taking away a right to aa, from an auto-attack-based champion? Yeah you can say but now it deals DAAAAMAGE and if u even try that i will gladly spit on your face. What kind of dmg is this pathetic 400-500 in late game when during those ~2 seconds of a cast time you could aa'd enemy team for like 2-3k ? Her being able to auto on inviolability was the core game changer for this spell. Not to mention you have to pay a goddamn 100 mana for this nerfed to the ground sh$t spell.

hufff

Okay now that we have this out of the way lets talk about her mechanics

The most important thing is that her old E in contrast to new was f$$$$$ng levels and levels above. Nice idea that she can be ranged from lvl11 and deal group dmg on lvl6 when both of these things she could've done before on lvl 1 with one point put to E. Yeah i know, i know she has new E that is actually good pre-16 bcs after that ur dps actually drops from using that laughable spell that breaks ur aa's and takes half a sec+ to cast.

The most efficient way to fix kayle would be switching her ascentions on lvl 6 and 11, shortening cast time on Q, fixing E aa reser and allowing her to aa on her R like she could've before and like she's suppose to, becouse right now her winrates have practically hit the bottom of 40 to 48% on any lane any role (check hyperlink for that info). Typically ppl ban new champ so noone pick it. In Kayle's case its absolute vice versa. People want their enemies to pick this trash champ (trash since 2 days), and if allied teammate pick it just dodge, its -3/5lp to loose and +23/24(14in dia) to win if you get her in enemy team.

summarizing my statement: Thanks riot for destroying yet another champion that i enjoyed with your "reworks" (see Aatrox, Galio, Zac and Urgot)

54 Comments

Lord Scorch 629 votes

yes...total failure...after one damn day...

like, my only gripe is that i wish her farming was safer early. but that is it, and i can live with it if they never change that.

for real what is up with you guys and kayle bashing? ITS BEEN LIKE ONE DAY! Y I K E S

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

yes...total failure...after one damn day...

its a total failure because they based her entire design on a broken power curve.

her kit has only stat check elements, so that power curve is at the same time her only balancing lever. she has to be trash early game, to justify her immensely overpowered lategame.

however the games that last long enough for her to scale are rare, since a huge majority of games end around 30 minutes or earlier.

so kayle almost having like 40% winrate with this kit is her actually being in a balanced state. thats why the rework failed.

watch riot buff her in the next one or two patches, and kayle gets immediately out of control. this is just bound to happen.

Lord Scorch 621 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gv9wEAq0,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-03-07T18:50:52.619+0000)

its a total failure because they based her entire design on a broken power curve.

her kit has only stat check elements, so that power curve is at the same time her only balancing lever. she has to be trash early game, to justify her immensely overpowered lategame.

however the games that last long enough for her to scale are rare, since a huge majority of games end around 30 minutes or earlier.

so kayle almost having like 40% winrate with this kit is her actually being in a balanced state. thats why the rework failed.

watch riot buff her in the next one or two patches, and kayle gets immediately out of control. this is just bound to happen.

i do agree with that last part 100%, she is going to get buffed to 99% ban/pick rate, and then have the jesus nerfed out of her.

i just wish 30 min games were the average, it would fix so much when it comes to balancing.

KlydeFrog3 votes

Weak early game strong ass late game . That can be said about a lot of champs

Asuzu1 votes

There is no late game anymore, everything is over in 10-15 minutes and surrender votes starting. You're lucky if you completed 1 item by then.

Cbrink235 votes

Everyone is still trying to play her like a lane bully instead of just being safe. Rework win rates always track when people are just playing cause they are new. Look at what happened with akali she came out with trash win rates then got buffed to stupid op because people complained she was weak with it giving time to learn new kit

Veribitsu1 votes

Yeah? Then how is it that after those buffs akali's winratio peaked 49,4% and actually was never above 50? Her KDA was always good tho

Jarring1 votes

{quoted}

Everyone is still trying to play her like a lane bully instead of just being safe. Rework win rates always track when people are just playing cause they are new. Look at what happened with akali she came out with trash win rates then got buffed to stupid op because people complained she was weak with it giving time to learn new kit

new kayle requires lots of skill. Eventually you have to learn that her power spike is hitting lvls 11 and 16 when she gets handed a couple participation trophies.

[sg-jinx]

Veribitsu1 votes

Dude ur lv54 unranked. I know u may enjoy playing her normals, but no matter how u look at this rework, it made her useless sh$t.[zombie-brand-clap]

Jarring1 votes

{quoted}

Dude ur lv54 unranked. I know u may enjoy playing her normals, but no matter how u look at this rework, it made her useless sh$t.[zombie-brand-clap]

Do you know what sarcasm is

Kagemyth4 votes

to be fair her win rate seems to have tanked before the rework according to champion.gg if you look at winrate by patch

Veribitsu1 votes

I assume u simply dont know that champion.gg is not following latest patches, and doesnt separate diamond kayle from bronze kayle. This site is the most unreliable site if u'r looking for info. Pls, read my whole post and use hyperlink.

Veribitsu2 votes

Please, i want constructive critisism not some bull$$$t that "she is good" or "she seems fine". Since when ratio's like this from plat+ are good: top 51.76%>46,91% jun 44.2%>41,3% (trash only cuz most picked rune=conqueror) mid 50%>41,68% seems fine to you? In jun she's vulnerable as hell, even tho it's still most fun way to play her, bcs her abnormal mana costs make her hug tower for whole early game. Adressing a comment: Yes its been one day, she's not very mechanically advanced champ, yet her performance is $$$t already

Shandrake7 votes

{quoted}

Please, i want constructive critisism not some bull$$$t that "she is good" or "she seems fine". Since when ratio's like this from plat+ are good: top 51.76%>46,91% jun 44.2%>41,3% (trash only cuz most picked rune=conqueror) mid 50%>41,68% seems fine to you? In jun she's vulnerable as hell, even tho it's still most fun way to play her, bcs her abnormal mana costs make her hug tower for whole early game. Adressing a comment: Yes its been one day, she's not very mechanically advanced champ, yet her performance is $$$t already

If you wanted constructive criticism you wouldn't have made that totally biased Poll.

Hotarµ3 votes

Your arguments would be totally valid if the champion hadn't been out for a grand total of 1-2 days.

All of the statistics you've provided are biased or moot because:

  • People haven't learned how to play as Kayle yet

  • People haven't learned how to play against Kayle yet

  • People are first timing her in games which can tank her winrate or boost it up artificially because of the above reasons

  • People (likely) haven't figured out the most efficient runes or build on Kayle yet

  • Dedicated OTPs in higher ELOs might not be performing as well with her since she's not exactly the same as pre-rework Kayle

You could have the most thought provoking post with all the evidence required to support it but it won't matter because it's 1-2 days of data with incredibly unreliable information. You need to wait for Kayle to 'settle in' for a bit before talking about buffs or nerfs.

Veribitsu1 votes

Yeah, about those buffs and nerfs, name one spell aside from W that has been "buffed" by this rework (passive not included bcs old was in synergy with guinsoo and practically outscales new one by a far)

Shahamut2 votes

Skarner's ult only deals 100(+60% AD)(+50%AP) at rank 3... to a single target... oh, but dont forget it hits 2x!

... ... ...

Veribitsu1 votes

{quoted}

Skarner's ult only deals 100(+60% AD)(+50%AP) at rank 3... to a single target... oh, but dont forget it hits 2x!

... ... ...

Dont forget skarner is tank, dont use ad or ap ratio's and his R is not ment to be used as a dmg source [slayer-jinx-unamused]

Shahamut2 votes

just saying, 400-500dmg sure sounds pretty good to me, especially since you are invulnerable while channeling, and the damage is AoE...

EDIT: also, compare Skarner's damage to any other tank and tell me his base AND scaling is not pathetic in comparison... I will wait.

Veribitsu1 votes

His base scaling is bad, beacouse he's not made to deal dmg xD. Aside from that u should be informed at some point in your like (kappa) that Kayle dmg from AA's is and also was AoE, i mean if 400 dmg is good to you on lvl 18 while also making yourself inable to aa, or use any ability, and is no guaranteed to heal, AND ON TOP OF THAT you choose that over x4 more guaranteed aa dmg, GL to you mate

Shahamut3 votes

So Nautilus is MADE to deal damage? 240 base damage on Q with 75% scaling, guess hes a carry not a tank.

Sion Q maxes out at 300 base damage with 225% AD scaling. Guess hes a carry too. Sion E has 205 base damage with 55% AP scaling.

Both Sion and Nautilus have shields that have base values (30-130 for Sion, 60-100 for Nautilus) as well as %max hp scaling.

Skarner sure is a great tank... yeah...

Veribitsu1 votes

240 with 75% ap scaling is actually not that high on a champ u want to go AP. ap ratios are usually way higher than ad, aside from that i dont play nautilius but he seems to max W. On top of that why is he not meta if he's so good ap ?

Sion scaling and base??? what u just wrote is simply false. This is his dmg and scaling on MAXED FULLY CHARGED Q witch is suppose to hit hard. Aside from this yes it deals much dmg, sion has lots of hp, his W is pretty good skill, and that's why he is actually good, meta (especially after conq nerf) 9.4 pre-hotfix conq was sometimes not enough to deal with him. That champion IS op so i dont know why would you even cry about it.

And yes. Skarner is not made to deal dmg.... WITH R! its simply not what this skill is made for.

Shahamut1 votes

Obviously you either dont read or dont understand sarcasm...

My point is that ALL of Skarners skills lack base damage AND scaling, especially in comparison to other champions with similar cc profiles.

Veribitsu1 votes

Well then u lack game knowledge. Sion has nowhere neare as close cc as skarner, and skarner dmg with triforce is many times better than naut dmg with 1 full ap item

Shahamut1 votes

Nautilus was not brought up to show that he has "tons of damage!" Your point was:

"Skarner isn't supposed to do damage"

My point in bringing up Nautilus was that he is also "Not supposed to do damage" but his BASE DAMAGES AND SCALING IS MORE THAN 100% BETTER THAN SKARNERS!!

So for two people who "arent supposed to do damage" Skarner's damage is pretty pathetic in comparison.

Skarner's damage is not "better" than Nautilus, its just different. In a short burst, Nautilus will win 100% of the time. Skarner has to deal his damage over a LONG period of time...

Triforce is also one of the most expensive items in the game... What can Nautilus have for the same price as Triforce?

Im also not advocating for AP Nautilus. Again. You don't seem to have any sort of reading comprehension here and the arguments are way above your head apparently....

TO SUM ALL OF THIS UP:

Stop complaining about Kayle's ult doing "garbage damage" because that simply isnt true. The damage is fairly decent.

Is it better than her being able to auto attack? Probably not. Does it feel bad using it since she is an AA based champion. Yes.

Veribitsu1 votes

Dude, no matter how you look at it skarner is better than nautilius atm... Yes you can build nautilis ap like an idiot (gl with that) and still be less efficient than skarner. Again about kayle, saying that this 400 dmg late game is better than beeing able to auto for 2sec is just laughable, aside from that you are barely gold man, what do you really complain about ??? [zombie-brand-clap]

Shahamut1 votes

Is it better than her being able to auto attack? Probably not. Does it feel bad using it as she is an auto attack based champion? yes.

Again. You dont read... I never disagreed with it being worse than auto attacking. All I did was point out that 400dmg is not garbage. If you want garbage numbers, Skarner has them in Spades. !

Veribitsu1 votes

Still, you're scrapping your older comments for arguements that doesn't agree with your later comments, besides you're comparing 50,5% wr jungler to 47,2% wr supp and say he's garbage....... like wtf? xD [zombie-brand-mindblown]

Shahamut1 votes

You have taken every one of my previous comments out of context and refused to acknowledge them for what they were. Kayle is fine: a 47-48% win rate on a freshly reworked champion is pretty good. Skarners win rate is obviously inflated as only his mains still play him at all... inflated... and barely 50% by your numbers...

Veribitsu1 votes

1st part of ur comment is just false, and second... "inflated"? xD like what???? Only mains play him? Dia+ he has double the number of registered (taken into data account on u.gg) games, which is like a relly small percentage xD "inflated/only mains" ? any proof on that? and about wr every champ with wr over 50% is good so i dont get the point. Aside from that post was about Kayle, not skarner. You should be adc main, they cry all the time that their mains are underpowered even when statistics shows they are cleary not. [slayer-jinx-unamused] About Kayle yes her wr is about 47% but its getting lower as divisions are getting higher, aside from that 47% on her destignated role=top. If you'd read my post, you can clearly see in 3rd verse that i played her jun and pre-rework she was really good at it, and rework comepletly destoryed her in that sense, with close to 0 pickrates and about 40% wr every div.

Shahamut1 votes

Champion.gg shows that Skarner has less than a 2% playrate, while Kayle has over 7...

yes, just his mains play him.

EDIT: Also, According to champion.gg, Kayle has risen to just over a 50% winrate overall. A LITERAL .5% behind Skarner. With over 5% more play rate...

[zombie-brand-mindblown]

Veribitsu1 votes

Again this post is not about skarner, or top kayle. Its about how rework ruined the way of jungle Kayle, and released nerfed versions of her old spells (especially Q and R)

What do you have with that goddamn skarner xD fetish or something xD go make a post about it, not discussing skarner on Kayle conversation

Shahamut1 votes

I have made plenty of posts about Skarner. Still make them on occasion.

I only brought him up as someone with low damage, as an example. You then started talking about Skarner, his role as a "non-damage dealer" and I just kind of went off from there XD

<3

Anhydrax2 votes

I just came to thumb down this guy's post because he has no idea what he is talking about and he is just crying until someone agrees with him which will not happen because as the 24 thumbs down point out, people do not agree with him.

Kayle needs some slight changes but that is pretty much it. Some guy even pointed out all your flaws playing her so you should read it again and improve. ✌

Furry Erotica1 votes

{quoted}

I just came to thumb down this guy's post because he has no idea what he is talking about and he is just crying until someone agrees with him which will not happen because as the 24 thumbs down point out, people do not agree with him.

Kayle needs some slight changes but that is pretty much it. Some guy even pointed out all your flaws playing her so you should read it again and improve. ✌

Though I don't entirely agree with the point OP is making, he's right for the most part.

Remember why they reworked poppy? Because her early game was trash and her late-game was auto-win, which made balancing her extremely difficult. She was either hot garbage or pick-ban.

New Kayle is exactly like old Poppy, but with an even WORSE early game and a late-game that is just as strong (maybe slightly worse or better. No idea, you won't make it there half the fucking time)

I remember playing pre-rework poppy and having a good time as long as you played safe and used your abilities correctly to survive/farm. reworked Kayle has no tools that actually help her survive the early game. W's heal doesn't count, as standing back for ten seconds will heal just as much.

GigglesO1 votes

Its literally same champ but with weaker early game...

Jarring1 votes

{quoted}

Its literally same champ but with weaker early game...

they gave her an execute. can't forget that. also the reason it isn't a skill shot i guess we'll never know.

Critmaster Garen4 votes

{quoted}

Its literally same champ but with weaker early game...

her lategame was also tuned up. which is ridiculous if you think about how strong it already was pre rework.

GigglesO1 votes

I hope they tune up mordes late game.

Veribitsu1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gv9wEAq0,comment-id=00030001,timestamp=2019-03-07T19:44:12.546+0000)

her lategame was also tuned up. which is ridiculous if you think about how strong it already was pre rework.

Her late game was not tuned up at all. She IS paper and always was. Pre-rework you didnt feel it that much bcs lv16 u could aa for 3sec for free. Now 2 of those seconds are taken from her thanks to her ult animation. Pre 16 most of the times she dies before even 5hits exalted. Only real solution for her R is to use it on another hypercarry (if you happen to have one up ur team)

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

Her late game was not tuned up at all.

at lvl 16 she deals the same damage as pre rework, just as true damage. they buffed the shit out of it lol.

She IS paper and always was.

doesnt make her weak.

Pre-rework you didnt feel it that much bcs lv16 u could aa for 3sec for free. Now 2 of those seconds are taken from her thanks to her ult animation. Pre 16 most of the times she dies before even 5hits exalted.

at lvl 11 she becomes a ranged carry. i didnt have many problems staying alive from the times playing her. and as you pointed out, she traded the auto attacks for a bunch of burst.

if you q, ult, auto and e with a lichbane, you can burst the shit out of most squishy targets.

her early game is even shittier than it already was, and her lategame is absurd.

Veribitsu1 votes
  1. She deals true dmg ON FIRE WAVES, that dmg is lv15 like 35-40 and lvl 16 50-55 ???? COOL BUFF MATE.
  2. Yeah beeing paper didnt made her weak when she could've AA for a short period of time without having to worry about payback. Aside from that saying being paper doesnt make a champion weak is like saying being tank doesnt make a champ hard to kill 3.You didnt address anything what i said in that one really, but replying to what u actually said: She dont become nothing on lvl 11, bcs at that time teamscore is 0-10 due to ur team playing 4v5, the burst can but is not guaranteed to be usefull, since u can get cc'd and u dont have any means of getting to enemy backline.

Aside from that u said she traded aa for burst dmg, doesnt that kill the idea of this champion ??? [zombie-brand-facepalm]

oh look her passive grants her powerspike from 40 to 55 dmg powerspike lvl16, old passive + guinsso = about lv 8 / 9 ? and with those 2 u melted through enemy defensive stats, making ALL Your dmg close to true, not only some firewaves that you can properly use from lv16 (lv1 pre rework E)

Sinister Anubis1 votes

Her early game legit does not exsist. And i dont think her late game makes up for shitty early game

Veribitsu1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Reckless Anubis,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gv9wEAq0,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2019-03-07T20:57:04.396+0000)

Her early game legit does not exsist. And i dont think her late game makes up for shitty early game

She is a champ that have no place in the game. Some say that they saw YT vid on guy going 14-3 and carrying game. The same guy probably has a vid from a short time ago going 1000-0 on akali, Even tho that champion's average wr wasnt above 50% even once after release, still getting nerfed to sh$t and recently buffed. Didnt turn out good tho she still 46%. Tho in kayle's case u dont even get the score

Sinister Anubis1 votes

{quoted}

She is a champ that have no place in the game. Some say that they saw YT vid on guy going 14-3 and carrying game. The same guy probably has a vid from a short time ago going 1000-0 on akali, Even tho that champion's average wr wasnt above 50% even once after release, still getting nerfed to sh$t and recently buffed. Didnt turn out good tho she still 46%. Tho in kayle's case u dont even get the score

I have over 65% winrate with her currently with over 20 games played. Id say shes ok

Veribitsu1 votes

jun / top ?

Sinister Anubis1 votes

{quoted}

jun / top ?

Top

SomeOneButNoOne1 votes

Okay so since you're pretty rude, I'll start off that way aswell.

  1. You have no clue how this champion even works. Every single champion you have played in this season, doesn't have a remotely close playstyle to new Kayle. The only champion that has a similar playstyle, was Kaisa, and even on her, LAST season, when she was COMPLETELY broken, you had 44% w/r. Meaning you suck on ranged carries, and it sounds like you're just salty af because you can't stand still, press R, and autoattack to win.
  2. Your build on her is attrocious. "W IS ONLY BUFFED AND HEAL IS NEGLIGIBLE QQ" - has 1 ap item in the entire build, and it's Nashor's tooth (not counting rageblade since realisticaly 25ap is nada). None of your games tried to differentiate the patern in wich you were failing. You didn't try taking runic echoes -> nashors -> rabadons. You just kept repeating the same build, with only variation being building botrk or Rylai's.
  3. You were playing her in jungle. She is obiviously, shit at jungling until level 6, wich becomes the moment she can gank. With recent nerfs to jung xp, it's not her optimal role, to afk-power farm. Try playing her in lane, and actually learning how to manage waves and how to trade with other champions. Also, a hint - you're suppossed to play defensive until level 11, and capitalize your opponents mistakes/outsustain them with your W.
  4. Runes for laning: Tempo->Triumph->alacrity->cut down; secondary sorcery (manaflow+celerity) or resolve (if it's someone who is a poker, like lets say Pantheon) you get 2nd wind & revitalize, although my suggestion would be to just alt+f4 in the champ select if they have Pantheon (or alike), for obivious reasons.
  5. You ARE NOT suppossed to go in middle of 5 people, R yourself, and then expect to kill everyone. That doesn't work anymore. Now, you are a hyper-ranged-autoattack-carry. You need to KITE, you need to land your Q's to SELF peel, and you need to abuse the W movespeed to practically be unreachable by anything mellee. If you play Kayle with actually AP instead of shit like Bloodrazor/Botrk (wich you don't need because YOU GET TRUE DAMAGE, YOU DO NOT NEED TO DO HYBRID DAMAGE AT THAT POINT, YOU NEED TO TRY AND INCREASE THE AMOUNT OF TRUE DAMAGE, TO GET THE HIGHEST POSSIBLE DPS. Vayne isn't a monster because of botrk/bloodrazor. She is a monster because of her W with comination of rageblade, wich combines into insane single target true damage, while she also melts squishies due to crit. Kayle on the otherhand, damages multiple people, with higher DPS output (on 2+targets), and you have W for insane kiting potential, Q for very damn nice self peel, and E that is a damn good execute. Also, the ultimate, believe it or not, does VERY GOOD DAMAGE, when you are on 400+ ap. But wait... you were never on 400+ ap.

This entire thread is you basicly QQ-ing how you can't stand still, press R, melt everyone's face off, but instead, oh dear lord no, my god no, you need to orbwalk/kite! Good luck in learning that you "diamondIV" player (an equivalent of a platIII if not PlatIV last season, wich you, coincidentaly, actually WERE last season).

The winrate data that you have provided, doesn't mean jackshit, since from what I've seen, people are still maxxing her E in lane, while Q obiviously has better waveclear, and actually gives SOME (I'm not saying it's Zoe/Viktor/Ahri style poke), but it gives SOME poke & decent waveclear in combination with level 6 E.

Good luck in your explorations/qqing (wichever you choose).

Veribitsu1 votes

FKN SEE RIOT????? THANK YOU 9.6 Some AD and AP ratio's nerfs, some animation cancelling fixes, W no longer disarm for 1 sec and suddenly she's top tier. This prooves how bad her spells were done, and how overflowed with useless stats she was. Way to go riot, do smth about this forever-taking R animation and im happy <3*[zombie-nunu-hearts]*

More from Gameplay