Goal of balance - process of nerfing a champion's signature ability into never getting picked?

PimpDaddyZippo··47 votes·2,861 views

TL: DR: recently, champions on the "hate list" of Riot has just been flatly butchered alive into oblivion when the champion signature spell gets nerfed significantly, when that happens, the champion effectively disappears from the game.

This is even exacerbated by the process of nerfing a champion: first slow and steady, targeted at non-signature spells, then the nerfs are getting heavier and broader at a champion's non-signature abilities, then eventually, the signature ability just gets killed anyway without reversing or thinking about that the previous two steps have huge compounding impact of the game. Dimming the background abilities to show its core identity as well as shutting down its core ability, making the champions targeted simply will not and cannot, shine.

With the community outcry on Veigar and Kassadin, I believe it's a good time to take a good look at champions simply just was nerfed out of existence recently.

There is nothing wrong with nerfing champions rather than buffing them. I do buy the argument that buffing a champion has perhaps more complicated and unintentional consequences to the game than nerfing them. Riot is doing a good job at when buffing a champion, it is usually slow and steady, often with compensation "nerfs". But the opposite cannot be said to be true, recently, champions on the "hate list" of Riot has just been flatly butchered alive into oblivion without much of forethought and compensation. This especially happens when the champion signature spell gets nerfed significantly, when that happens, the champion effectively disappears from the game.

This is even exacerbated by the process of nerfing a champion: first slow and steady, targeted at non-signature spells, then the nerfs are getting heavier and broader at a champion's non-signature abilities, then eventually, the signature ability just gets killed anyway without reversing or thinking about that the previous two steps have huge compounding impact of the game. A champion may be fine and still viable when their signature ability gets butchered, but when all its other abilities also got butchered previously prior to the signature spell nerf, that is just it -- the champion is just simply over-nerfed into oblivion and often never seen again.

Let's look at a few examples:

Azir prior to patch 5.4, a long string of nerfs targetted at abilities other than his sand soldiers, the champion's signature. When his signature ability, soldier's range got heavily nerfed, he is gone, until 5.4, where Riot realizes the changes to him were too heavy and compensated for it. (Whether that is enough, is still a question).

Kassadin: after heavy "changes" to his other abilities, and nerfs to his new QWE, it is evident again to Riot that Kassadin cannot be balanced into a good place without heavily nerfing his signature spell rift walk, range was heavily cut similar to that of Azir's W. Again, Kassadin sent to oblivion, now Morello would state that compensation buff is incoming.

Kayle: after heavy nerfs to it's signature item Lich Bane (think of the DFG equivalent now), she not only did not receive compensation, but heavy nerfs to Q ratio (nearly cut by half), ult cooldown (nearly doubled it), and base, attack speed growth (heavily cut), Riot again finds that the face of its tribunal cannot be balanced without heavily nerfing her signature spell, E, cutting its ratio in half. Only to later compensate 0.05 ratio back to her. As a result, her effective damage is not even half what it used to be, after all her damage, from Q, from E, from lichbane, and from attack speed got heavily nerfed.

Veigar: similar to kayle, after flat-out removing DFG, veigar not only did not receive much buffs, but direct nerfs to his signature spells, including E and Q. Again similar to all champions above, veigar is too, nerfed into never picked.

Evelynn: Also a DFG user, heavily nerfed her entire package, but in spite of the new jungle challenges (and diversity), she got a few armor points and a E "change". Again a champion who was once popular but rather now into the oblivion.

There are more mentions, such as Yasuo and others who suffered the similar fate. Which prompts the community to ask: what is the goal of balance? Is it Wack/just kill a champion? Because recent examples do point to the that as the answer. Second important question is, when a champion cannot be balanced without heavily nerfing his or her's signature spell, such as Kassadin's R, Kayle's E, Azir's W, is that indicative of design flaws? Lastly, if a signature spell gets heavily butchered, such as Kassadin's R, Azir's W and Kayle's E, which are their identities, what gives players motivation to even play them?

These, with their background abilities also getting heavily nerfed during patches prior to their signature spell nerf, nearly always totally push a champion from getting picked again. Their identity is faded, the core nerfed, and all background ability to show its core identity also nerfed, what's left of them is an empty shell. Then of course, no one is going to pick them anymore.

Is this the goal? We would love to see Kassadin, Veigar, Eveylnn, Yasuo, Kayle and others back into the game again, without being broken and with their identity, maybe, try reverse some nerfs to their entire package (like Azir, not 400-300, but 400-375), light nerfs to the entire package may work better (700- 600 on kassain's R and reverse a bit of other nerfs, kayle E ratio to 0.3 and reverse AS growth and a bit of Q ratio to 0.8 for example).

19 Comments

Eiskalt7921 votes

What usually confuses me about their nerf process is that they'll dance around the actual problem and nerf everything else in the kit, THEN eventually give up and nerf the problem but do not put compensation back into the kit immediately that they kept nerfing.

Like with Kassadin, players have always claimed Riftwalk was the problem. But instead of tackling it head on, they pseudo rework the guy, repeatedly him over and over, and then eventually say fuck it and nerf his Riftwalk. Only when they finally did nerf Riftwalk, nothing was done about the crap load of other nerfs he had sustained and he becomes absolute garbage.

urth1g4 votes

This!!! I really don't understand this too and would like to hear what riot has to say about this.. Just curious to see how would they explain it. Altrough i doubt they will answer because i didn't see any response from riot in a long time in this section.

Helmight4 votes

I think the reason Riot doesn't straight-up nerf a champion's signature ability right off the bat is BECAUSE it's their signature move. Kassadin is known for his unparalleled mobility. Azir is known for his soldier shenanigans. Veigar's known for his stun-and-instagib combo. Changing a champion's signature ability is the least desirable course of action because it attacks a fundamental part of that champion's identity.

So, Riot instead opts to nerf other portions of their kit to try and maintain that identity. The reason that every portion of Kassadin's kit got nerfed before Riftwalk was because they didn't want to change the ability that gave him his schtick. Unfortunately Kassadin's ultimate was STILL too strong even after the changes and had to be nerfed as well, but Riot at least gave a solid attempt to keep it.

Hope that made sense.

PimpDaddyZippo5 votes

{quoted}

I think the reason Riot doesn't straight-up nerf a champion's signature ability right off the bat is BECAUSE it's their signature move. Kassadin is known for his unparalleled mobility. Azir is known for his soldier shenanigans. Veigar's known for his stun-and-instagib combo. Changing a champion's signature ability is the least desirable course of action because it attacks a fundamental part of that champion's identity.

So, Riot instead opts to nerf other portions of their kit to try and maintain that identity. The reason that every portion of Kassadin's kit got nerfed before Riftwalk was because they didn't want to change the ability that gave him his schtick. Unfortunately Kassadin's ultimate was STILL too strong even after the changes and had to be nerfed as well, but Riot at least gave a solid attempt to keep it.

Hope that made sense.

Sure this makes sense, but the problem is precisely also this, and summarized above. They end up nerfing both the core identity and surrounding abilities, the end result is a massively over-nerfed champion, without identity, without strength, without any attraction to players. This is the Kassadin, the Kayle, the Azir and so on

Helmight1 votes

Sure this makes sense, but the problem is precisely also this, and summarized above. They end up nerfing both the core identity and surrounding abilities, the end result is a massively over-nerfed champion, without identity, without strength, without any attraction to players. This is the Kassadin, the Kayle, the Azir and so on

Mhm, was just trying to explain it to Eiskalt. I understood your argument just fine :P Riot needs to remember to buff these champions after they nerf their core ability, or to simply nerf the core ability in the first place.

PimpDaddyZippo1 votes

This is precisely what I'm trying to get through in my post. Well summarized!

Remlap12239 votes

I believe the term you are looking for is Olafing.

Saianna3 votes

Smart veigar was seriously OP. They had to nerf him.

Now he'll have to wait in champions-to-rework queue. Give or take 2 years.

Btw who remembers when his passive was "stealing" % of enemy AP? That was cool passive!

KomePrePongo6 votes

{quoted}

Smart veigar was seriously OP. They had to nerf him.

tell me when veigar was a popular pick. I was only one playing him in season5 as I was climbing from my promotion to plat5.

Saianna3 votes

{quoted}

tell me when veigar was a popular pick. I was only one playing him in season5 as I was climbing from my promotion to plat5.

He didn't have to be popular to be good. Popularity not always depends on strenght. Back in (very) old days he was my second mained champion. And he was few times more powerful than prenerfed version.

And fyi i dislike this change too. But getting butthurt over something that was bound to happen is just dumb. His stun was always the best in whole LoL. Riot nerfed him tad too much but they did.. and they won't fix their mistake no matter how much WE will rant (yea, i rant too!)

Crett1 votes

{quoted}

Smart veigar was seriously OP. They had to nerf him.

Now he'll have to wait in champions-to-rework queue. Give or take 2 years.

Btw who remembers when his passive was "stealing" % of enemy AP? That was cool passive!

I thought it was a little pointless that it had such a small flat cap, though.

zergman2 votes

I was actually talking to a friend about this. I think they realize there are too many champions in the game and so instead of removing them completely they just make it so no one would want to play them in a competitive game. I know RIot has even said not all champions are meant to be on the same level.

Pika3102 votes

Some champions have their whole entire kit nerfed all in one swift blow. Including some secret undocumented nerfs while they're at it. Even if they were already underpowered beforehand.

Sona

Minipie1721 votes

I believe the resent nerf to Veigar's stun was a bad idea. The delay time is to long as I explained in http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/mmye08YI-veigars-beloved-stun-items-idea

I gave some ideas to fixing some of Veigar's nerf's too.

NorthernDruid1 votes

I'm scared that Ryze is on their hitlist too, with them deciding to destroy his signature Overload rather than make his Spell Flux interesting and requiring skill to use.

Remlap12231 votes

The only champions that I agreed with getting slammed were Kassadin and Kayle. Kassadin, as we all knew, was effectively permabanned late Season 3. Why Riot went back and hit him with nerfs again, I don't know, but I agree the nerfs to his ult after they effectively gutted everything else was overboard.

Kayle was also a pain in the ass to deal with. After Riot took the mana cost off of her ult, she basically became a hella mean lane bully while simultaneously having some just flat out mind-boggling late game scaling. It's why Azir got gutted, because Riot fucked up and made him a lane bully and hypercarry, and as we learned from Lucian, that tends to be a nightmare to balance.

PimpDaddyZippo1 votes

Azir did just get completely gutted to the same extent as kayle and kassadin. They did recompensate for his core soldier ability. They also announced they will be buffing Kassadin's R as well.

I think the design process needs work, and they need to revisit champions like kayle, yasuo, and eve just to make them a pickable champion again. Urgot is a good start

Fuaztin1 votes

I once bought a needlessly first on kayle. And it did not change the amount of righteous bolts it took to kill somebody. Buying any amount of AP on kayle is a waste.

PalPlays1 votes

gasp!

If this happens to Skarner...you...will be able to play...the Scuttle Crab!

More from Gameplay