Tenacity is getting worse and worse

Stratego33·Sep 5, 2016·166 votes·6,304 views

So I've been noticing lately that when I play a game and think 'well they have lots of cc, better buy merc boots' a lot of the time I look over the enemy team and 50% of their cc does not get reduced them because it is considered 'displacement'.

In an age where the top jungle champs are Rek'sai, Gragas, Vi every second game has Yasuo, Tresh is still one of the best supports and so on, it feels like tenacity as a stat is just getting worse and worse as new champions with non-reducable CC get added to the game.

118 Comments

Only Play DariusSep 5, 201652 votes

Back near the end of Season 5 Riot said they were working on making knockups affected by tenacity, haven't said anything since then.

ArkatraSep 5, 201649 votes

We know where Riot's promises end up.

Vistha KaiSep 5, 201614 votes

With removing Tenacity?

The DeckownerSep 5, 201616 votes

With solo queue

Vistha KaiSep 5, 20166 votes

With Karma.

ErockandrollSep 6, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vistha Kai,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gEE3Amz1,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2016-09-05T21:08:25.097+0000)

With removing Tenacity?

I think the ultimate problem with Tendency is, Riot needs to balance between the have and have nots. And I bet in some cases, it could be problematic enough, that they decide to make the ability not effected.

Take say, Morgana's snare or maybe Garen's silence. A Tank could easily shrug that off with the tendency from Mercs. But a glass cannon usually can't afford Merc treds in their build. If you nerf the duration to make it more healthy against the glass cannons, tank classes may shrug off the CC so quick that they are unaffected. giving you two problems with Tendency that can't easily be relegated.

CoffeeDaveSep 6, 20161 votes

Just a shower thought: why not have CC scale with a Utility stat with Tendency as the defensive stat against it? For argument's sake, call this new stat "Control", and With items giving more "Control" the CC gets stronger, but you can build Tendency that can scale like Armor/MR. It can get better with more items you build. That way if someone doesn't build any Control, then Tendency would begin to make the CC negligible. It would also force some champs to either build more damage or more control

ErockandrollSep 6, 20165 votes

{quoted}

Just a shower thought: why not have CC scale with a Utility stat with Tendency as the defensive stat against it? For argument's sake, call this new stat "Control", and With items giving more "Control" the CC gets stronger, but you can build Tendency that can scale like Armor/MR. It can get better with more items you build. That way if someone doesn't build any Control, then Tendency would begin to make the CC negligible. It would also force some champs to either build more damage or more control

I seriously doubt that would be good for the game environment. Not only would that create the same (have and have not) balancing, it would also add another stat for people to worry about. And chances are, that stat is going to be forced onto the one class who can use CC, and doesn't care about damage. (I.E. the support) And that would likely limit the number of supports that can survive in the meta those items create.

TheProAndrewSep 5, 20168 votes

did you know Yasuo (R) Nami (Q) and Velkoz (E) knock ups get reduced by tenacity?

since those knock ups are considered as "suspension" and not a knock up as itself

if you dont believe me its easy to test against a Nami bot and you playing DrMundo with item 3111

WoonStruckSep 5, 20162 votes

Only extremely tiny portions of them, excluding an optimally delayed Yasuo R.

A large portion of suspensions is displacement, not any form of CC that could be reduced by tenacity. You're looking at less than a 20% reduction IIRC as Irelia, Mundo, etc with full tenacity loadout.

TheProAndrewSep 6, 20163 votes

well thats what league wiki says: "The distinction between Suspension and a traditional Airborne is that a Suspension is affected by crowd control reduction and can be fully removed by cleansing effects."

check here: http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Airborne#Airborne

go down to Suspension just after "stun"

AwoofSep 6, 20166 votes

I'm pretty sure it's actually the other way around, they have a (very) brief knock up on the start but the rest is "suspension". (at least for Nami and Vel'Koz)

Champion SkinSep 6, 20163 votes

item 3140 and Gangplank W is also a good test as they fully remove suspension effects but not knock ups (you get freed from the stun but not the knock up so you also need to use flash or some other mobility to be able to move again)

TotalJerkSep 6, 20168 votes

They can't, though. They've designed a bunch of champions specifically around the fact that Tenacity doesn't reduce knockups. That used to be the thing that separates stuns from knockups. The problem isn't that tenacity doesn't affect displacements, it's that Riot started handing the ability to do so out like candy.

AwesomeChadSep 5, 201632 votes

They NEED to reduce the CC duration on displacement spells. There is no way to mitigate the cc otherwise.

MonkeyMadnessSep 5, 201624 votes

The biggest issue is that a lot of displacement cc effects have a "lag" period at the end in which you can't move for a brief duration. Obviously abilities like Alistar pulverize and Nautilus depth charge are supposed to stun when targets land, but other than that, when you stop getting kocked up/back, your last movement command should start IMMEDIATELY.

WinTheWarOnPantsSep 5, 201615 votes

don't forget LeeSin lol he *edit: suppresses you , kicks your ass across the lane(dealing tons of dmg to you and everyone you hit), and then you are stunned at the end....

PB4UAMESep 5, 20163 votes

It's not a root, but suppress iirc, as it also prevents ability use, and interrupts cast before the knock up.

TotalJerkSep 6, 20161 votes

Wrong

Lee Sin roundhouse kicks the target enemy champion, instantly rooting him for 0.25 seconds, dealing physical damage and knocking them back over 1 second.

PB4UAMESep 6, 20163 votes

Actually, looking into it, it's coded like a chain of 2 stuns (.25 second at start, and mini stun at the end) and a knockback, but no part of the CC is cleansable or affected by QSS.

doombotMECHASep 6, 20163 votes

double finger guns balanced.

RalanrSep 6, 20162 votes

And it can affect Sion after he hits you with his ult.

Nothing more tilting than a stunned Lee Sin knocking me back.

MordepoolSep 5, 201619 votes

Yup bump. Moonflair spellblade i wish for longingly on SR

TargonSep 5, 20166 votes

I'd love if that item got added to SR, though, it'd only be viable on AP champions and specifically those that can benefit the most from additional magic resistance and armor. I'd love if tenacity was improved overall though but in a way in which it's not an excessively accessible stat.

Count ZubatSep 5, 201616 votes

So... Bring back Zephyr AND Moonflair Spellblade?

tooomineSep 6, 20162 votes

I fucking miss zephyr, man. why did we lose that item? I will never know.

Jet SettSep 5, 201613 votes

"Te...nacity, tenacity, ten-acity... GENIUS! We'll hold TEN LCS games per city and even start selling the rights to the likeness of our players to EA for games while the player doesn't get said money for their likeness being used. Wait is there something about balance we're forgetting?"-Rito Games 2050 after Phreak goes to get a job in remedial pun-ishments.

manbearswineSep 5, 20167 votes

Well most of thresh's spells get reduced by tenacity(hook duration, slow duration on ult and e), only his knockback(which is rather short) doesn't get affected by it.

I think the problem is that knockups arbitrarily don't get reduced by tenacity, and then are placed on champions who don't need to ignore tenacity due to thematics, why couldn't they just make their knockups work the same way as nami's bubble does? In fact why not make it a stun in the form of a knockup(so it won't break dashes either)?

It's stupid really, you add a lot of power in inappropriate places just because "thematically this champion should throw you in the air". So how about make him do so visually, but without breaking dashes or ignoring tenacity? Oh right, spaghetti code...

Maybe we shouldn't value thematics over gameplay then?

MonkeyMadnessSep 5, 20164 votes

In fact why not make it a stun in the form of a knockup(so it won't break dashes either)?

Because this makes 0 thematic sense. If you are dashing and an enemy manages to land a knock-up mid dash, they deserve to be rewarded for their superior aiming/timing.

manbearswineSep 5, 20164 votes

{quoted}

Because this makes 0 thematic sense. If you are dashing and an enemy manages to land a knock-up mid dash, they deserve to be rewarded for their superior aiming/timing.

You realize that in many cases the travel time of the dash+cast time means it's an easily passed reflex check? it's not superior aiming/timing, their opponent never stood a chance, all they had to do was have a decent reaction time.

There's a reason ahri lost that ability, and there's a reason we don't just put it on every stun/snare in the game, it's a meaningful strength and it should only be there if it needs to be there, and in most cases it doesn't.

MonkeyMadnessSep 5, 20163 votes

Please consider physics: if a force is great enough to blast you into the air, it should probably interrupt your movement...

manbearswineSep 5, 20165 votes

{quoted}

Please consider physics: if a force is great enough to blast you into the air, it should probably interrupt your movement...

Not really, a force propelling a target upwards won't affect its movement forward, a knockback would, but a knockup wouldn't.

MonkeyMadnessSep 5, 20162 votes

...you're missing the point. Like alot

PB4UAMESep 5, 20164 votes

No, you just made a really shitty, and mostly irrelevant point, and we called you out on it.

DemiMaxSep 6, 20161 votes

Whaaaat? So you are teling me, that if your walking on your way to get some sweet cake across the road like every other day, but today the crosswalk has one of those huge, fully functional and activated to max force (where you couldn't even stand), freefall simulator fan on the ground instead of a regular crosswalk, but you decide to walk on top of it anyway, by your logic, you could walk past the gigantic wind force that is pushing you upward without it affecting your movement at all??? How does that work?

If a bomb blows up underneath you do you still keep walking forward, and not get propeled into the air if your still in one piece???

Champion SkinSep 6, 20162 votes

If you throw a ball if nothing affects that ball then it will keep going at the same speed forwards/backwards regardless of if it falls down or is going up

Though of course in reality there are things affecting the ball mainly air resistances which slows down the ball

LuigreinSep 6, 20162 votes

So it's pretty much a physics thing. So if your hypothetical crosswalk fan blows you up in to the air, you still have the forward momentum you left the ground with. Since air resistance is a thing and you won't be able to generate more forward momentum without something to brace against you probably won't have enough to make it across the crosswalk, but you will continue to move forward a bit after you start going up. If air resistance wasn't a thing you would continue to go forward indefinitely.** Adding momentum to someone doesn't negate momentum they already had unless they go in opposing directions.

Given that the dashes in LoL are made at super human speeds and magic etc. is involved with CC you could probably make a solid case for either way of handling the interaction. I think having a set interaction and sticking to it is more important than which interaction they choose.

**This would be a hilarious third interaction with dashes and knock-ups. Get hit with a knock-up mid dash? You will now continue your dash until the knock-up ends rather than your original dash timer.

PB4UAMESep 5, 20162 votes

Irrelevant argument in a fantasy game that doesn't even have a Z axis, let alone laws of physics.

MonkeyMadnessSep 5, 20163 votes

literally ever single comment to this is hardcore missing the point. The way a knock up works simply DOES NOT allow for a dash ability to be completed if it connects. Unlike a stun (which stuns you upon arrival to your target destination) a knock-up can't thematically just wait until you get there and then take effect. I suppose it could knock you up and you keep your xy movement while in the air, but that's kind of dumb. Knock ups are also supposed to be very damning cc (unlike other forms) so if you could just dash without fear of knock up interrupting you, it wouldn't be all that bad

PB4UAMESep 5, 20162 votes

Even so, I'll still reply. Nothing in the game's coding forces the knock up CC to take effect immediately. It could be buffered and the remainder applied at the end of the dash-- as already happens in some instances. Or the damage could go through and the CC be ignored-- as also already happens in some instances.

MonkeyMadnessSep 6, 20163 votes

Oh rly? You read the game's coding did you? interesting.

Here's what's up: 100% of knock up abilities are "hard to use" (ie skill shots, combo abilities like j4) or locked behind a long cd (ie ults and pulverize). And while Riot is trying to do away with point-and-click cc, the way knock ups work, they just tend to be harder to use than smthn like a morgana binding. They are therefore supposed to be really damning cc, and if you could just shrug it off because you are dashing, that makes it meaningless. Knock ups work as intended, I have attempted to give you a thematic reason why, but instead you keep complaining. This tells me that you are arguing solely because you are salty about something. If you think knock ups are op, then spam knock up champs and abuse it. Done. Stop this self-righteousness.

PB4UAMESep 6, 20163 votes

I didn't read it, this is an interaction they have specifically talked about before when doing various changes.

You go from an ad hoc argument to making a strawman, or else you seriously need to work on your reading comprehension. I mentioned ways that knockup CCs are applied as I literally said, but you apparently mis-read, "already happen in some instances." I wasn't complaining, as you claim at all, about anything. I was mentioning various ways it can play out based on certain properties. Malphite's Unstoppable Force, for example, is a dash, yet it is uninterruptible, so knocks that hit him mid dash will damage him but the CC is ignored. This is the one example of the second way I described this interaction working. Vi's Assault and Battery however, has her buffer CC during the animation, but she is affected by the remainder of the CC once it's over. This is an example of the first way I said this interaction can work.

In other instances, yes, the knock up will interrupt the dash. That is not, however, the only way it works. Once again, it also has fuck all to do with the laws of physics, which you already misrepresented in your original comment that I replied to.

TL;DR learn some better reading skills, and know what you're talking about before trying to correct other people who are not wrong.

P.S. keep spamming them downvotes.

Irelia BotSep 5, 20167 votes

Irony that people use Irelia's passive as a means to call her broken. If it applied to all CC there might be something to it.

LankPantsSep 6, 20166 votes

Irony that people use Irelia's passive as a means to call her broken.

Well since the last nerf it actually does nothing most of the time anyway.

Teridax68Sep 5, 20165 votes

I feel that's intentional on Riot's part, and I think one of the reasons we've seen a degree of knockup creep in the past few seasons is because displacements ignore Tenacity. On one hand, it makes the stat worse at countering what it's intended to counter, but on the other it also allows CC to operate on the exact same window of effectiveness, regardless of who it's used against, which also allows associated windows of power (e.g. how much damage you can inflict during that time) to be measured more consistently. By contrast, many other forms of CC have excessively long durations precisely because they're expected to be reduced by Tenacity: Morgana's 3-second root is the most infamous example, but we also have Fiddlesticks's 2.25-second fear and Rammus's 2.25-second taunt. It's not a fun situation, but I personally believe it has more to do with Tenacity not being a healthy stat than with displacements being innately bad (though they're certainly overused, or at least were at some point).

FantasySniperSep 5, 20163 votes

That's exactly why they're doing it, but this has gone too far.

Teridax68Sep 6, 20165 votes

I agree, in the sense that "too far" has involved shoehorning in displacements and knockups into kits, or otherwise avoiding focusing too hard on forms of crowd control typically reducible by Tenacity. In fact, out of the past 10 champion releases, the only champions against whom Tenacity would be truly effective would be Jhin, Ekko and Bard, despite champions like Tahm Kench and Taliyah having a serious amount of CC, and both Jhin and Bard having CC that Tenacity cannot reduce. I don't like the idea of an under-the-hood technicality having a major, permanent influence on champion design, and generally crowd control as a system now has so many inconsistencies and unclear ramifications that it would significantly benefit from its own rework, which should aim to standardize the behavior of CC.

Personally, I believe that removing Tenacity with such a rework would actually be beneficial: with it, every form of CC would have a fixed duration, which also means every instance of CC would have to be balanced around said duration, which would effectively guarantee nobody would ever have to deal with any single instance of CC lasting more than 2 seconds, bar a couple of ults. If the affected champions end up being too weak, they could/should have their power buffed elsewhere (for example, greater damage to allow them to land the same amount of damage within a shorter window).

PB4UAMESep 6, 20163 votes

I'm not sure I agree with you. In fact, I side with the opposite direction. I wish Fid and Rammus still had their 3 second long CCs, as I feel there is indeed a place in League of Legends for long single target CC effects-- particularly on a tank with only a brief knock-up and slow as the remainder of his CC, and a squishy short range mage who needs their target to stay in close range to them for a long period of time. I also don't think Morg should lose her binding's duration for similar reasons.

Additionally, I think tenacity is a crucial stat for juggernauts, fighters, and melee in general. That said, I agree that tenacity needs some work. I feel their are two directions it should go in: either A, its removed from all items (with Mercs being reblanced as a result) however melee champions are given a base 35% tenacity, and it remains available in champions' kits and in masteries, with exceptions being made for role balance/game health as need be (sort of like scaling magic resist) This is the idea I'm least fond of, but it a direction that would make sense. Or, B, it remains as it is now, with Merc made to give 35% again, with the reintroduction of items like Zephyr, the addition of Moonflair Spellblade to SR, and the creation of new tenacity items such that it is more accessible, has other build paths, and isn't solely tied to one boot choice.

PB4UAMESep 5, 20164 votes

TBF, they already heavily nerfed Fid's fear twice. Once by making it no longer random, uncontrolled movement, but making it run away from him, which hampers his kit greatly. Additionally they nerfed him and Rammus at the same time, by making their 3 second CCs into 2.25 second ones.

On a side note, I've seen maybe 10 Rammus since this change, when he used to be a rather common jungler.

doombotMECHASep 6, 20162 votes

"yeah let's just fucking nerf two already underplayed champs fuck it why not"