Mage vs Mobility - A few thoughts to bring mages back

SlithyTollbooth··1 votes·995 views

Since I started playing league (I believe about November 2009), I have loved mages. I loved the risk/reward of managing placement to pump out a perfect combo. When mobile assassins (with early damage potential) came to the league, mages began to phase out. Some mages could function okay in the support role, though most have dwindled outside the meta.

Here is the problem: the higher the skill cap, the more mobility champions shine. Given two players of comparable skill, a mobile yasuo in my opinion will trump a brand every time in middle, especially with a well timed gank.

I was thinking about possible solutions, but until recently have continued to run into the same problem: mobility has slightly broken the game, and without directly nerfing the damage of high mobility champions, I initially felt there was little that could be done..

Here's a very rough solution: create an item that gives mages a fighting chance against high mobility champions. In my opinion, a new low tier item that gives mages breathing room during laning phase.

New Item: Blankety's Blank Blank (the format of a few league items).

 Cost:  Something appropriate.

 Gives mild AP, possibly some armor.

 Replaces blasting wand (or adjusts seeker's armguard) in Zhonya's hourglass build. 

 Unique Active: Slithy's Breather (or whatever): Marks target enemy champion.  For the next x seconds target champion's damage and user's damage are reduced by total distance traveled by target (insert some slick percentage calculation here) against *each other*.  x second cooldown.  x charges (i was thinking 2, so that wrap around ganks would have to change strategies, though perhaps multiple charges would break the item).  This active would be replaced with Zhonya's active, and could not be used in conjunction with it.

Criteria:

Skill based: the issue is that high skill cap champions outshine low skill cap champions, so the solution must require a knowledge of the game and good timing.

Must target damage: The hidden strength of assassin mobility isn't the positioning, it's the damage output once he/she gets there.

Balanced: A change should not place mages in a more powerful position, but help give them an option to counter. This is why mage's damage vs target is reduced as well, this should not be used before a flash initiate.

Designed for appropriate phase: In late game, team fighting and team positioning can cover a mage, it's in the laning pase that the real problem shows up.

Cost: Should be priced appropriately to discourage use in improper situations, yet reasonably enough for early use in lane.

Itemization: Should build into a mage item, so that support use is limited. (reasoning: certain junglers, like warwick Warwick) could be severly impacted by an easy to use mobility counter.

Not easily exploitable: should only benefit user, so that a support could not protect an adc, and so that a mage could not use on a nocturne Nocturne, who ults across screen to another teammate.

Possibly more: I haven't fully analyzed this yet (and do so much better through discussion anyway), so there could of course be unforeseen flaws in this idea.

The reason the distance traveled matters: Zhonya's active requires some, but little skill, whereas timing is incredibly important for this new active to function appropriately. If used too late, it will do nothing. Though used in anticipation of a gank or attack, it could keep the user alive if timed while the opponent is far enough away.

It should be a direct target ability (like brand's e - unsure of proper terminology), because skillshots are too easily dodged by high mobility champions, and a well positioned brush attack should be rewarded. The enemy should be able to see the mark, which will provide a meaningful choice. He or she can calculate quickly whether the resulting damage is enough to make the gank worthwhile.

Clarification: The user's damage would not be reduced vs any other enemy champion. This helps balance when the mage is ganked. Only the user and the target are effected.

One disadvantage to this solution is the complicated math it would take to guesstimate the damage output. However, this item is designed to balance highly skilled players. The innate knowledge of items is stronger with these individuals.

Other possible problems: Fizz Fizz. against another assassin, this may give Fizz too much room to grow in lane. He does, however, need to be close to be effective, so use would remain defensive.

Also, there is the possibility that a mage drops a combo, then pops this item to negate a counter attack. I'm not sure this use is improper, because a mobility champ can easily jump in before or during the combo.

Just some morning thoughts I've been mulling over with fellow summoner shipples. Please tell me what you think!

Lastly, please forgive any logic or grammatical errors <cough> <cough>...

18 Comments

Hrud3 votes

I find the idea interesting. Have a bump.

SlithyTollbooth1 votes

Thanks sir, i appreciate that ^^.

Sailor Mint2 votes

The reason why some "traditional mages" aren't played is because their kits aren't reliable. Why play Brand who requires two spells to get a stun when you can play Syndra?

To be completely honest, with the rise of long range mages this season (i.e.: Xerath and Ziggs), it's slowly becoming a Brand specific issue. Most mages see some niche play (Anivia, Karthus) or soloQ success (Swain, Malzahar).

Lord Dusteon4 votes

The reason why some "traditional mages" aren't played is because their kits aren't reliable.

Why play Brand who requires two spells to get a stun when you can play Syndra?

...who also needs 2 spells to get a stun.

Sailor Mint2 votes

...who also needs 2 spells to get a stun.

Poorly worded on my part. I'm really talking reliability here. It takes less time for Syndra to get her QE off than it takes for any of Brand's spells to complete. And it's larger, longer range and AoE.

SlithyTollbooth1 votes

I see what you're getting at. One purpose of itemization is to leave reasonable options to help mitigate threats. Your points, while valid, are a very wide in scope. This solution is intended to provide an option for a more limited problem.

Thank you for your thoughts :) because they help me refine my own! This is an issue for a small few mages yes, but i still feel they could use the love.

xJLx MCHammer2 votes

The only problem in this game is that mobility has no downside. It feels like they just hand it to anyone, so if comes down to the problem that a champion who has mobility is doing everything a champion with no mobility does, but he also has mobility

Yasou's dmg output is nearly the same as most mids, except he has mobility.

Couple that with ganks, and they can react against or with ganks better than champ who have no mobility.

*Oh look, a jungler is trying to gank me, says a fizz" E aways to safety

"Oh look, a jungler is trying to gank me, says a cass" to ducking bad, shouldn't have postedpushed

And it's the same when the gank is for you.

Llanite1 votes

If you have low mobility, ward well, or just don't push. Ranged champs have less defense, because they are supposed to fight from distance, and kite as fights drag on. If someone closes the gap without you knowing, you failed as a ranger.

And mobilize champs DO have a downside - they do not have a solid/easy-to-use CC.

xJLx MCHammer1 votes

If you have low mobility, ward well, or just don't push. Ranged champs have less defense, because they are supposed to fight from distance, and kite as fights drag on. If someone closes the gap without you knowing, you failed as a ranger.

And mobilize champs DO have a downside - they do not have a solid/easy-to-use CC.

Nope, you missed the point entirely.

The op is pretty clear, there is no downside. You act as if they don't have solid cc, yet ignore, Fizz, liss, lee, elise, riven. .etc

What you said about them having a downside is correct in theory. They should have this weakness, but the reality is, they don't have this weakness, the majority of them don't

Llanite1 votes

Uh, you have zero concept to begin with.

Lee/Riven/Darius/Irelia/etc are bruisers. They have strong all-in but no poke, no ranged CC and subject to kiting. Cass/Xerath/Brand/Syndra are long-ranged mages ranged poke and various CC. Annie/Veigar/Leblanc/Fizz are in the middle.

As a mage, you are supposed to kite so they can't hit. And they are supposed to close the gap and kill you. You don't kite well, you die. It's that simple.

xJLx MCHammer1 votes

Uh, you have zero concept to begin with.

Lee/Riven/Darius/Irelia/etc are bruisers. They have strong all-in but no poke, no ranged CC and subject to kiting. Cass/Xerath/Brand/Syndra are long-ranged mages ranged poke and various CC. Annie/Veigar/Leblanc/Fizz are in the middle.

As a mage, you are supposed to kite so they can't hit. And they are supposed to close the gap and kill you. You don't kite well, you die. It's that simple.

Again, you claim I don't know bit that's totally not true. Mages are classified in different roles, those that can burst, those that have sustained damage, abdominal those who can poke. With that said, this has nothing to do with mobility vs non mobility

You can look at any two similar role champs like talon and fizz. Both have similar role, talon has a down side to his mobility. He needs an enemy to target, he needs to put himself in danger, and needs range.

This is the actual problem. Fizz gets his main damage from his mobility ability. He has better itemization, more aoe dmg, hard cc..etc

And FYI, Riven is very hard to kite with no mobility. Try as Cass to kite her without ryali.

Xwrath is poke brand and syndra are burst mages cass is sustained

For your information

Llanite1 votes

Riven/Talon/Irelia/Jax/Nasus/ those with 0-1 dash, or weak ones (i.e. Riven) has at least one hard CC, no ranged poke, and very high raw stats. Feel free to verify.

Fizz/Kass/Leblanc/Akali/Kat/ everyone who has 2 dash would have no hard CC (or weak/limited).

Those with mid-ranged poke Swain/Annie/Veigar/Ryze/Malz/ have 1 strong CC, decent raw stats and defense.

Those with long-ranged poke Xerath/Cass/Syndra/Anvia have at least 1 soft 1 hard CC, low base stats, low defense, low MS. You have your face smashed if the above 3 groups have their hands on you.

Every champ follows the metric. If you don't feel comfortable kiting, go play a bruiser.

SlithyTollbooth1 votes

I do appreciate this point. I have a question for you though.. If mages are meant to be punished for lack of kiting, why does zhonya's exist? It gives mages a limited option if they make a mistake.

I agree that kiting is important, the issue is that the mid ranged poke mages have to be mid range to be effective (both in farming and poke/combo-ing). Champions like Yasuo, Talon, and Zed instantly close that gap. It is important that certain champions have roles that outshine other champions, but mid lane assassins have effectively pushed out the mid range mage.

Champions are supposed to provide options that counter other champions. When a counter becomes too good at countering, means should be taken to adjust the balance.

Llanite1 votes

Mostly to work with Fidd and Kennen I believe. Everyone can buy Zhonya, but it's generally not as effective as GA.

Mobilize assassins are mostly duelists, mages are team players. They have solid advantage in lanes but fall of later in large fights. If you are a mid-ranger, then I'm afraid the mobilize group is a counter. You can counter Yasou/Talon/Zed with someone from the bruiser group (Riven/Morde/Diana/Irelia/Lee).

xJLx MCHammer1 votes

Riven/Talon/Irelia/Jax/Nasus/ those with 0-1 dash, or weak ones (i.e. Riven) has at least one hard CC, no ranged poke, and very high raw stats. Feel free to verify.

Fizz/Kass/Leblanc/Akali/Kat/ everyone who has 2 dash would have no hard CC (or weak/limited).

Those with mid-ranged poke Swain/Annie/Veigar/Ryze/Malz/ have 1 strong CC, decent raw stats and defense.

Those with long-ranged poke Xerath/Cass/Syndra/Anvia have at least 1 soft 1 hard CC, low base stats, low defense, low MS. You have your face smashed if the above 3 groups have their hands on you.

Every champ follows the metric. If you don't feel comfortable kiting, go play a bruiser.

It has nothing to do with kiting. You can't kite Annie a talon, who hss the same range as you.

For starters, riven has a dash, 3 mobility on Q, a shield, a aoe stun, and aoe ult. No she doesn't have just one dash. It's multiple ones, such is why some Riven players use Q and dash to actually get in range., its effective. It's also why most use it when trying to escape. Riven has a very nice effective kit and fits multiple situations

Jax has gap gloser, aoe stun, and damage reduction.

Also, LeBlanc, fizz, by no means have a weak CC. She can stun twice, fuzz can aoe knock up. I'm not sure what you mean by weak

You keep putting cass with the group that has long range. Cass main damage is 750 range. She isn't apoke or burst. Yes, she is a kite champ, but she CAN'T kite a riven who has multiple gap closers that ignore her only soft cc.

Yes, the idea is, if a champ like irelia, jax..etc Get close enough to kill you, it's over. The problem is, you don't seem to understand that not everyone is like syndra who can sun and knock back enemies with ease. In a perfect world, most champs can do this, but that's not the case.

You can't outrun a vi who Q's and ults you as cass or Annie. You can't kite a talon as Annie when you both have same range. Now, this is a team game so there will always be peel, but that's completely irrelevant

My original point is that Mobility has no downside. A champion with mobility will always have an easier time reacting to ganks for him or towards him. Who do you think had a better chance to making a gank go more smoothly, a Cass or a leblanc? Who do you think will escape a gank better

Do you honestly think a cass an out run through kiting alone a vi or a ramnus? A kit that is narrow in its design teens to be weak, a lot which is flexible and versatile tends to be dominant.

Elkington1 votes

Mages already have (by far) the best itemization in the game. Do they really need more?

SlithyTollbooth1 votes

Thanks for responding! Here's my concern with that line of thinking:

The problem still exists, so is there a better way of dealing with it? I'd prefer not to take away the early play style of mobile assassins, or nerf them to the point of uselessness.

Do we rework every mage impacted by this? Or maybe shorten the distance between middle turrets?

I'm not seriously considering these alternatives. My point is, does it really matter if the fix is a new item, if it is the simplest and most effective fix of the issue?

There is a reason mages have such a strong itemization. There is a larger variety of ways mages function. You have on hit mages like teemo and kayle, that can benefit from attack speed. You have long range mages that need less protection. You have control mages that cause enough headaches in early lane on their own (oriana and syndra). You have mid range combo based mages. This last group is the group I feel could utilize this item the most.

It's the same logic behind the new jungle changes. Riot has identified 4 potential ways to jungle and is working to keep the variety going.

Riot's initial move to help this part of the laning phase was through seeker's armguard. I just think a boost to it would help give players of equal skill a more equal playing field.

BlkGolem1 votes

I 100% agree. Maybe I'm wrong, but I feel that mobility is not balanced enough as part of a kit, I feel that it's considered less powerful than it really is. Instead of going on about how much I hate Yasuo, Zed and Lee and how broken ad mobility no mana low cooldown champs are, I won't. But every champ has damage, so giving one the same damage or more and then slapping on that they can run circles around their skillshot based opponent all game really shouldn't be fair.

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