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Feedback on Cassiopeia 4.21 Change to Aspect of the Serpent Stack Generation

Strafes··1 votes·1,712 views

I saw Stashu read up on another players post on Cassiopeia changes. I'm hoping he will address this one here. I am a Diamond Cassiopeia main, but am nothing close to King Cobra right now.

Before 4.21, in 4.20 and prior, Cassiopeia could farm stacks off minions effectively (and practically) hit 400 Stacks (max stacks) at 27 minutes approximately. This was a monotonous aspect, although it rewarded skilled players to consistently hit a marker that was relatively early for a late game buff. Ideal lanes against Melee laners usually ended up in 23 minute benchmarks for max stacks.

As of 4.21, no matter how much of a lead I have, or who my laning opponent is, the new benchmark (practical) seems to be 33 minutes in an even lane or winning lane. 33 minutes compared to a practical benchmark of 23 minutes to hit max stacks is a 10 minute delay. The passive change has literally only benefited poor Cassiopeia players who seemingly do not understand how to stack properly off minions (however monotonous) is more efficient than passive generation.

The new 4.21 changes actually retards Cassiopeia's growth, especially when she is behind. If Cassiopeia opts to split push, she significantly falls behind in stacks because she is getting approximately 1~2 stacks per wave, compared to 4.20 and earlier where you can get 6.3 stacks per wave. This does not factor in transitional time between lanes and there are no champions to hit (and if they get hit, they're probably going to kill you at that range) to increase passive generation.

This brings up a problem between 4.20 and 4.21. Cassiopeia's who are ahead do not benefit from the passive stack change compared to the poisoned creep stack mechanic. Cassiopeia prior 4.21 can snowball aspect of the servants stacks due to increasing AP, leading to easier last hitting, leading into faster more consistent stacks [from lane or jungle (small jungle creeps)]. However, 4.21 Cassiopeia stagnates even when given a lead. If Cassiopeia's lane opponent can over aggress (which many can) or just avoid confrontation, Cassiopeia in 4.21 is still weaker in comparison due to lack of ramping on poison stacking.

As an avid RTS player, and MOBA player, I do not see why champions are being balanced to the general populace. I believe all champions should only be balanced based on the top 1% of players. A lot of the win rate problems that occur, or champion "problems" that occur are not directly linked to the champion but problems in general mechanics of players. The change in 4.21 has assisted the lower 98 percentile of Cassiopeia players while drastically weakening Cassiopeia in upper play where general mechanics are less of a factor in win rate, and the Champion specific mechanics matter.

TL;DR; New Cassiopeia Stacking Passive does not work as intended in decreasing stack time and increasing consistency.

I would like some feedback from Stashu and his thought process on balancing a champ based on general criticism from a public that does not know how to play the champion that is currently one of the hardest mechanically in the game.

5 Comments

Cale0174 votes

I can understand where you're coming from with that 1% ideology on balancing champions, but while you have a point it doesn't really find a mark with a game like League. The competitive scene would be nothing without the support of the general populace keeping the game in a popular place. It isn't a game that exists only for the competitive scene, quite the other way around actually. The game should be balanced with both aspects in mind, not completely excluding one group or the other. Not everyone can, or should be expected to, play on the same level as the highest 1% and the average player shouldn't feel like they have to, or be told that they should be, playing at that level to be able to enjoy a champion. Some champions should have harsher learning curves, but never to the point where someone has to be a professional gamer to do well with them.

Strafes1 votes

Even then, Cassiopeia was designed as one of the highest APM intensive champs in a game. Leaving her in her current state leaves her even more unfit for the meta than 4.20. Champions should at least be well balanced, and a champion with a 30 minute minimum time to peak is hardly suitable for play.

Also Cassiopeia was never meant to be a champion that was meant to be played by entry level players. The original designer had in mind Cassiopeia should be a high skill cap champion, high risk, high reward. His concept of Cassiopeia has been completely gutted by Stashu.

LongFur Fox1 votes

She is still a high skill capchampion. If not still the hardest champion. Other than the passive cassi is most likely more in line with original intent than before and her apm is just is high outside of lane. Also on how quickly you get max stacks then if you wanted max stacks by 23 minutes then you needed 134 stacks from poisoning your opponent (assuming you got ever single minion while poisoned). While the same amount of poisoning only gives you max stacks at 37 minutes. You should however be able to get more stacks as you don't need to have your w or q dedicated to stacking. So since you have more abilities open for harrasing you could easily get some 100+ more stacks getting you back at the original time. Might be that you just have to play her some more.

Strafes1 votes

134 stacks, is landing your Q poison 44 times on your enemy laner Within 23 minutes. I don't like to assume my enemy laner is bad, but if they're tanking that many poisons, they should be dead majority of that laning phase and it goes back to, if the enemy laner isn't in lane you can't stack poisons.

Most ranged laners know not to get hit by the poison without trading, and all current mid laners of equivalent or longer range do more damage than your poison. It's a huge loss for trades especially due to Cassiopeia's Q animation is rather long compared to Syndra's Q which does more damage at level 1, is instantaneous, and has 0 cast animation. Melee mid laners, Zed, Talon, Akali, Kat, Fizz, you can stack farm off of EXCEPT you are in danger majority of the time past 6. It's highly unrealistic to play her.

4.21 Cassiopeia has a weird spike at level 2, and is strong at 3, but evens out at 4+, until your stacks level off. You can make up for the late game delay if you do a level 2 or 3 all in, which is still awkward due to Q CD being 4 seconds to a 3 second duration, and majority of decent mid laners know not to get caught up in this shenanigan.

You still poison minions to efficiently max out mana refund on E to continue poison spam on the enemy champs, so poison downtimes is a thing. Also, they decreased reliability of your Q by extending the CD on it.

The biggest flaw in getting stacks from hitting an enemy, is expecting the enemy to be hit by it. You're not only capped by your own skill, but the enemy's general dodging skill. It's not hard to dodge Cassiopeia skills due to the range and delay on them. Majority of the time, if you wait to land a W on an enemy, you are also in range to get CC'd and bursted as part of the trade while you're locked in a Q animation. If you don't follow up with a Q on your W, you effectively wasted your combo initiate.

LongFur Fox1 votes

The 134 stacks is to reach 400 stacks with her old passive at 23 minutes which you said you were doing. I am sorry but if you think it is impossible to get 134 stacks i am going to call bullshit on your first post saying you usually get full stacks by 23 minutes. I was honestly quite surprised that you got it so early "usually" seeing how king cobra rarely gets it that early. On the 30 min mark which seems far more realistic for most people in a lane where they get camped or have a bad matchup the new passive easily catches up to her old passive. Now i am ok with assuming you got 400 stacks on her old passive in 23 minutes but then it does not make sense you could not get 500 stacks with the new passive in the same time due to not having to use poison on minions.

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