Riot, why did you continue to promote power creep toplane ?

Nyitaldden·Mar 20, 2018·40 votes·2,705 views

Can you explain us a single time why did you think that healthy that a champion possess much more option in his kit than 95% of the others ? Whatever happen, regardless of the metagame, these champions are very strong at high elo (Riven, Fiora, Camille). It is extremly unfair for someone with a normal champion to fight them unless they are overpowered too for some reason.

Unless you decide to rework all toplaners in a single big patch ... don't create champions like Fiora, Camille or Irelia anymore please. Yes, it's good for streaming moves but in term of balance, this is not encouraging to play versus a champion without a true and exploitable weakness who start the game with a lot of advantages over you just because of the kit ...

Champions kits should be oriented around unique playstyle, not " be stronger than current champions".

86 Comments

CasterGilgameshMar 20, 201825 votes

i fully disagree with you its impossible to rework all top laners at once progress takes many single steps at a time to get it right also i love more complex champions i despise all these old champions like Tryndamere MasterYi who just right click to delete anyone while being hard to run from and having no way to respond to them without hard CC or being Teemo also simple champions that are new tend to be unfun to play against see Illaoi for more details

RainbowIceeMar 21, 20182 votes

is there actually a high skill ceiling top laner? they're usually kept very simple as far as i know. I can't think of any atm though. So Irelia would kind of be the first, unless you wanna count yasuo as he's been going top often too.

SpoofghoulMar 21, 20185 votes

Sion highest skill ceiling top laner Has many tricks and mechanics you can learn that are really hard to pull off

Sure anyone can throw an E but can you ''curve'' it or jump walls with his R or run circles through the jungle with it by bouncing off walls he can also use AA resets/cancels for increased dps or burst but it's situational. There is so many nuances in how to use his kit. Canceling dashes/jumps with timed Q's His kit is the most telegraphed in the game which means in order to use it to maximum potential you need to read your enemy and have a good amount of game knowledge

Many synergies too for example extending allied dashes by having your jax/lee/braum jump a minion but you launch it on top of an enemy 1400 units away now imagine that lee being 800 units behind you Did enemy expect to get kicked into a fully charged Q by a lee sin 2200 units away from him

There are lot's of funny things you can do with Sion And the more you know the game and can read your enemies and the more you learn to exploit the little tricks the better he gets Also playing with allies who know these things too and how to synergize with them brings him to a whole other level.

Now compare that to Fiora who's skill ceiling consists of knowing when to hit W

NemeBroMar 21, 20184 votes

{quoted}

highest skill ceiling top laner Has many tricks and mechanics you can learn that are really hard to pull off

Sure anyone can throw an E but can you ''curve'' it or jump walls with his R or run circles through the jungle with it by bouncing off walls he can also use AA resets/cancels for increased dps or burst but it's situational. There is so many nuances in how to use his kit. Canceling dashes/jumps with timed Q's His kit is the most telegraphed in the game which means in order to use it to maximum potential you need to read your enemy and have a good amount of game knowledge

Many synergies too for example extending allied dashes by having your jax/lee/braum jump a minion but you launch it on top of an enemy 1400 units away now imagine that lee being 800 units behind you Did enemy expect to get kicked into a fully charged Q by a lee sin 2200 units away from him

There are lot's of funny things you can do with Sion And the more you know the game and can read your enemies and the more you learn to exploit the little tricks the better he gets Also playing with allies who know these things too and how to synergize with them brings him to a whole other level.

Now compare that to who's skill ceiling consists of knowing when to hit W

Sion isn't nearly the highest skill ceiling top laner, and he is much lower skill ceiling than Fiora, though he might be the highest skill ceiling tank.

Stop being a jellymad hater at higher skill ceiling champions my friend.

SpoofghoulMar 21, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Sion isn't nearly the highest skill ceiling top laner, and he is much lower skill ceiling than Fiora.

Can u back this up with arguments please?

Milton FletcherMar 21, 20182 votes

Playing the game is enough proof.

For someone to say sion has a high skill ceiling makes me very sad for this playerbase

Serious4WhyMar 21, 20182 votes

if you think Fiora's skill ceiling is entirely encompassed in her W, you're delusional. Look at Khan playing Fiora, then look at a diamond NA player playing Fiora, there's such a huge difference even if they're timing every W. Fiora is big on Spacing, splitpush and macro analysis, and since every champion in the game has hard CC now, she has to time her QSS as well. There are so many things she has to think about, unlike Sion who presses E then Q and does half your HP while building full tank, and spams banner buff the entire game.

UltîmaMar 21, 20181 votes

I can really what you said about Sion, but please don't pretend that Fiora's kit isn't also packed with nuances. AA-resets and combos, proper vital rotation when using ult, Q-W slides to activate stuns, timing, etc. If Fiora had a low skill ceiling you wouldn't be seeing people still learning new things about the character after 200+ games.

MelledoneusMar 21, 20187 votes

The new Irelia is much more fair than our current iteration. She has no sustain, her stun is a skillshot, and her skill expression isn't a point and click stat check.

SqueyMar 21, 20182 votes

She still has sustain, its on her q now. Her stun is a skill shot but it also hits everyone with a pretty huge linear line area of effect. Her skill expression looks to be, If im stronger then you then there isnt anything you can do to stop me. If im weaker then you then im an average juggernaut.

RainbowIceeMar 20, 20186 votes

Irelia hasn't released yet chill. Besides i have a strong feeling she's going to be the next yasuo. Yes i mean people are just gonna feed with her.

IreliaCarrlesUMar 21, 20184 votes

hahah NO. not at all.

Shes much easier than yasuo, and We irelia mains still like her so No. She definitely wont become a meme, at least not for feeding.

CatastrophicMar 21, 20182 votes

yasuo mains still like yasuo, doesn't prevent them from feeding. But yea she might be easier than yasuo.

AhristocatsMar 20, 20185 votes

how is riven strong in high elo?

AbyssmalHydraMar 20, 20188 votes

Idk, ask Adrian/Viper/BoxBox/Cecillia/LordMasterKing etc how they get challenger top 50/top 10 playing nothing but Riven, into every matchup, in every Season.

Edit: As an ADC Morde otp, I'd suggest posting more on your own lane, fyi from another morde main.

AhristocatsMar 20, 20182 votes

you're real? i'm only playing top atm LUL

ArakadiaMar 21, 20189 votes

Tommorrow though you'll be making a post about how your a support main playing Thresh and Blitzcrank.

AbyssmalHydraMar 21, 20183 votes

Theres still 10-20 more riven mains in challenger. though they mught have opt'ed off for akali. still. Your post makes negatie sense, how many RUMBLE players are there in challenger? :crickets: Hm? None? Well bah, 30+ riven challengers around the world certainly isn't a high number or anything.

Sun Wu RyuumokuMar 20, 20183 votes

totaly unrelated. showing a bunch of otp reaching master chall dosn't prove anything. i can make a list of Wukong master... but the champ is all but strong.

Thats saying, Riven isn't a fair champ...

But your post isn't honest, saying she's strong at high elo (need to define what high elo btw). looking at high elo stat she's decent, nothing more. And if u look at the best server (Kr) she's meh. https://lolalytics.com/ranked/kr/platinum/plus/champion/Riven/Top/

HaIlMonitorMar 21, 20182 votes

Well I mean there are two Riven 1 tricks in the top 50 of NA right now 27 Viper, and 33 Adrian. But realistically what does that mean that a few people one tricked to the top on her? Outside of the one tricks like the ones you listed and Dekar, no one else plays Riven. All of the top lane mains just play Cammile, GP, Gnar basically. If she was one of the top elo picks (in general) I would assume everyone would abuse her.

FloupiMar 20, 20184 votes

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MorgManBasherMar 20, 201824 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fluffy Pikachu,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fYjeuqEp,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-03-20T20:12:23.498+0000)

Riven strong in high elo? She feels awful to have in your team and brings nothing interesting... And she is pretty abusable in lane

Also the reason why they give options to new champions is because the older laning phases (think about versus lane) are extremely unhealthy because they are pure statcheck with near no room for mistakes and outplays. And once one gets ahead he will completely stomp his opponent with near zero counterplay.

Meanwhile when things like Camille gets a head they can jump on you from a screen away and kill you, I'd rather fight tryn/jax any day.

Somebody Love MeMar 20, 20186 votes

I'd rather have Camille because she's more than right click to win. All her abilities except R have some sort of delay/counterplay. You can do more vs her than wait for her player to mess up.

Meanwhile it's hard to even mess up on champs like Jax or Tryn. Hell, the biggest mistake Tryn can make is pressing R too early or too late.

ArakadiaMar 21, 20182 votes

Even her R has a delay. And allies can do a lot to reduce its effectiveness.

Votable JesterMar 21, 20182 votes

At least you can kite Trynd or at the very least see him coming. With her ult or flash, Camille can jump on you from about as far as Zac, except she actually has the damage to kill you on her own.

FloupiMar 20, 20181 votes

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GayFluffyUnicornMar 21, 20181 votes

Camille and fiora matchup is insanely fun. I still think fiora RNG needs to get toned down or worked around. She is basically tryndamere. RNG vital proccs make or break early fights against her.

NorthernRedStarMar 20, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Meanwhile when things like gets a head they can jump on you from a screen away and kill you, I'd rather fight tryn/jax any day.

Her Q2 deals over 1k true damage once she gets her core items. On a low cooldown.

GayFluffyUnicornMar 21, 20182 votes

Which is ALWAYS delayed and gives you enough room to CC,burst her or shield and heal your allies.

You are playing lulu and janna i don't think you have any right to complain.

NorthernRedStarMar 21, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Which is ALWAYS delayed and gives you enough room to CC,burst her or shield and heal your allies.

You are playing lulu and janna i don't think you have any right to complain.

Indeed I am. But am I playing them every game? No.

I am forced to, because characters like Camille will kill my carries within 1 second otherwise.

See, it's not a one way rail road like assassin players so much want to believe. It's a frail balance of power.

SuperspickMar 21, 20181 votes

Once she gets her core glass cannon items at full build*

I 1000% assure you no Camille is dealing 1k True with Tri + Titanic. Not happening. A Camille that continues building damage items could, sure, but that's a full build glass cannon Camille having to wait in melee range to activate this.

Wanna talk about what other champions can do at full build vs Squishies with no real retaliation? I hear Diana can hit 1k AP and deal nearly 4k magic damage in the space of 1-1.5s, before resistances, to an ADC without MR. She's OP, i guess?

NorthernRedStarMar 21, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Once she gets her core glass cannon items at full build*

I 1000% assure you no Camille is dealing 1k True with Tri + Titanic. Not happening. A Camille that continues building damage items could, sure, but that's a full build glass cannon Camille having to wait in melee range to activate this.

Wanna talk about what other champions can do at full build vs Squishies with no real retaliation? I hear Diana can hit 1k AP and deal nearly 4k magic damage in the space of 1-1.5s, before resistances, to an ADC without MR. She's OP, i guess?

It's not a /could/.

Titanic's active gets transformed into true damage as well. Even without it active she'll be dealing 600-700 with Trinity's passive. You should know this unless you've never faced Camille, or even played her.

Diana doesn't shred tanks and bruisers with similar ease. Big difference.

I never called her OP. I do think she's top tier, however, and as such I can understand OP's opinion.

SqueyMar 21, 20181 votes

yes exactly. Cant understate how stupid it is to fight a Camille who with just steraks, trinity and ga can q something then jump a full screen away, over terrain, onto a carry and do over 1000 true damage with her 2nd q. Good job there riot.

NyitalddenMar 20, 20187 votes

Tell me why a Tryndamere will prefer play versus Irelia than Jax ?

She has AoE stun too, she disarm you for a minimum of 3 seconds, she is more mobile, she has sustain while she afk farm, she has mixed damage too and she can absorb tryndamere short burst with her % damage reduction.

Jax was good versus Tryndamere, but it was not so hardcore as Tryndamere versus Camille / Fiora now.

New champions / reworks have new tools, but ancient ones are jut ridiculous.

Simple kit don't mean that you have less counterplay than a complex kit, most of the time, that's the reverse.

FloupiMar 20, 20184 votes

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3TWarriorMar 20, 20183 votes

they have to compromise their stats if they want: movement speed, damage

they are the most vulnerable to crowd control in the game bar a marksman or mage that is somehow alone

their impressive damage comes at the price of that they can be peeled away by the ranged carries on the team (mages, tanks and some marksmen abilities or supports, etc) so positioning and planning are very important to them

their items are quite expensive and they are DUELISTS, so they tend to only focus on one person at a time

if they have less counterplay than other champions, why aren't they played more? The answer is, because they are simple, they have more windows of vulnerability than newer champions

ArakadiaMar 21, 20182 votes

No counterplay doesn't mean the champion will have a high winrate.

Master Yi and Tryndamere are undeniably binary.

3TWarriorMar 21, 20182 votes

umm, what? Traditionally, the less you can do to defeat something, the LESS counterplay that something has

they are immobile(at least no dashes in yi's case), melee range, vulnerable to crowd control more than other classes because of their close proximity, item dependent, and only fight one target at a time

how is that "no counterplay" ?

A juggernaut has less counterplay than they do, but juggernauts are in most cases healthy, so why are melee carries not healthy?

if you want an example of "no counterplay" Aatrox used to be able to build almost entirely tank and wipe out half your team while having 3 lives.

If you hit tryndamere with any crowd control at all, he's not going to get to you and will probably have to waste his ult to escape. Master yi can avoid skillshots with his Q, but it is audible for when and where he is going to reappear and he is the least defensive of all melee carries

ArakadiaMar 22, 20181 votes

umm, what? Traditionally, the less you can do to defeat something, the LESS counterplay that something has

Low winrate =/= less counterplay. For a while Azir had a very low winrate but very low counterplay. Old Yorick had a low winrate but almost no counterplay.

they are immobile(at least no dashes in yi's case),

Master Yi has a blink that resets and can be reduced through kills. Tryndamere has a dash that is reduces through auto attacks.

melee range,

Literally the only thing in their kit you can play around. Too bad 90% of their damage is targeted.

vulnerable to crowd control more than other classes because of their close proximity

This plays back to them being melee.

item dependent

This is not counterplay. Once they get these items, this goes away. This is a weakness, not counterplay.

only fight one target at a time

I don't see how this is supposed to help me avoid or outplay them.

A juggernaut has less counterplay than they do, but juggernauts are in most cases healthy, so why are melee carries not healthy?

A lot of juggernauts aren't healthy.

Mordekaiser and Garen suffer the same issues Master Yi and Trynademere do.

Darius has counterplay between being much more kitable than Yi and Trynd, having telegraphed and delayed damage, AND having multiple spells you can dodge.

90% of Illaoi's damage is avoidable. She has to land skill shots and get herself to the middle of a team fight by walking alone.

Master Yi and Tryndamere is nigh unavoidable. Master Yi even has both his Q and E, which make him all the more difficult to kite when fighting an uncoordinated team.

if you want an example of "no counterplay" Aatrox used to be able to build almost entirely tank and wipe out half your team while having 3 lives.

This isn't no counterplay.

You're confusing an overpowered champion with a champion who was no counterplay.

Aatrox's third auto is avoidable, his revive is telegraphed and has counterplay, his Q is avoidable AND cancelable, his E is dodge able, and his ult can be disengaged from. You can kite him too.

Master Yi and Tryndamere can only be kited.

If you hit tryndamere with any crowd control at all, he's not going to get to you and will probably have to waste his ult to escape. Master yi can avoid skillshots with his Q, but it is audible for when and where he is going to reappear and he is the least defensive of all melee carries

Only a bad tryndamere gets shutdown like that.

Master Yi's Q doesn't indicate where his going to reapear by sound. I've never heard of that before.

Besides, this isn't counterplay. I know he is going to blink on me if I'm an ADC in a team fight, I can see him walk up to me specifically. I know if I'm alone im my jungle he is going to blink on me. That doesn't help me avoid his targeted dps.

3TWarriorMar 22, 20181 votes

Low winrate =/= less counterplay. For a while Azir had a very low winrate but very low counterplay. Old Yorick had a low winrate but almost no counterplay.

#1, azir had a low winrate because because he has to do TOO MUCH to be effective, so he was popular in high levels and professional play. Tryndamere and Yi have low win-rates because they win by profiting from their opponents' mistakes and not from having effective tools in their kits

Master Yi has a blink that resets and can be reduced through kills. Tryndamere has a dash that is reduces through auto attacks.

#2, Yi's Q cooldown is reduced by attacking and not from kills; Tryndamere's Dash is reduced by 1 second for critical hits or 2 if he has guinsoo's rageblade in effect. Yi's Blink only functions while in range of his opponent or a minion he can damage

Literally the only thing in their kit you can play around. Too bad 90% of their damage is targeted.

#3, marksmen have 90% of their damage as targeted as well and have higher range. If you change melee, marksmen need to be changed as well

This plays back to them being melee.

#4, you did not disprove my point, only pointed out that they were melee

This is not counterplay. Once they get these items, this goes away. This is a weakness, not counterplay.

#5, item dependent is very much counterplay, as it has been since the beginning of league. DO NOT LET THE GAME LAST TO THE POINT WHERE THEY REACH A PEAK OF POWER. Tryndamere is a split-pushing champion and only relevant so far in a team fight. Master Yi has only one strength: his ability to take out a target. If you punish his lack of gold, he can do little about it. If the game lasts too long, if he's stopped via crowd control or just pure damage, he has no utility to offer his team

I don't see how this is supposed to help me avoid or outplay them.

#6, this was listed more as a weakness than a method of counterplay, but if the team does not attack them while they are attacking a team member, that is the team's fault and not the champion's. Master Yi and Tryndamere can only attack one champion at a time and are prone to interruptions, counterbuilding, and of course, proper positioning.

#7, Darius plays much the same as tryndamere but he trades having SOME mobility for having MORE damage and DURABILITY. Illaoi is currently a champion of debate because she has clear moments of weakness, BUT, when she is not having one of these moments, she becomes a champion that is "avoid at all costs until she loses her ultimate" which is unhealthy.

#Here's a point I think you missed in your own explanation: "telegraphed and delayed damage." Unless you are facechecking near an unwarded area, Master Yi and Tryndamere have very binary kits that are predictable because it is a core part of their engage.

You're confusing an overpowered champion with a champion who was no counterplay.

#8, really? Aatrox could ONLY be kited during that period. He had to be killed THREE TIMES and was a monster because of it during team fights. Tryndamere and Yi both can be crowd controlled and put out of action when killed. Aatrox only waited it out and the fight was over, or you were run under your tower and the game was done while they busted down your base defenses UNLESS OF COURSE, YOU WERE FOOLISH ENOUGH TO FIGHT AATROX, IN WHICH CASE, HALF YOUR TEAM GETS WIPED BY HIM ALONE

#9 here's a fun fact. Master Yi and Tryndamere are DUELISTS, as are fiora, jax, riven and multiple other champions. If ANY OF THEM catch you alone, you are going to die. DON'T DUEL THE DUELISTS! that is their one and only strength: taking out a single target at close range, which riven was long-criticized for because she can do more than other duelists and has an ult that can cause a large amount of Area Damage

ArakadiaMar 22, 20181 votes

######I'm sorry I can't hear you, would you mind speaking up?

######Also...

2, Yi's Q cooldown is reduced by attacking and not from kills;

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/398719344449814530/426515407969452047/unknown.png

3TWarriorMar 23, 20181 votes

that happened because I used # before my list. Also, if you look at http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Master_Yi , which seems to be the same page you linked, it clearly states that alpha strike is reduced by 1 second for each auto attack

do you have anything to contribute?

ArakadiaMar 23, 20181 votes

I also said that it reduces alpha strike's cooldown by one second, I do not disagree.

If you look at the link, it clearly states that Master Yi's abilities are reduced every time he gets a takedown.

3TWarriorMar 23, 20181 votes

I did not notice that and wish it were bold or something but it also seems an odd choice to include on his ultimate, I apologize for that, but I feel this discussion is somewhat off-topic now

Sun Wu RyuumokuMar 21, 20182 votes

i get ur complain about Trynda/yi... but not for Jax.

ArakadiaMar 21, 20183 votes

Jax has the same issues of being binary, old, bad design.

Besides he has thematic, visual, art, and sound issues too. He's totally outdated.

DeadUnbornMar 20, 20183 votes

skirmishers always have mobility and survivability. If they didn't overload their kits then you would end with binary shit that has to be OP or trash like trynda and yi all the time. Having more stuff on their kits allows them to have more levers to turn if nerfs are needed

T4underboltMar 20, 20181 votes

I'm not fan of fiora nor Camille but tmtanks are broken to the point you can be wood 5 and win by right clicking alone.

ArakadiaMar 21, 20184 votes

Since when do tanks do anything significant from just autoattacks?

T4underboltMar 21, 20181 votes

Well if you played top lane as a bruiser you would notice that tanks are literally missing half of their abilities (or you dodge them if you can because most tanks have easy to hit or point and click abilities) and still out trading you by standing and exchanging autos after you performed a perfect combo. You still lose that trade like that. It happens in every tank match up. Tanks need to deal less dmg or early armor/Mr items must be less effective.