What counters Last Whisperer

Apulon·Jan 26, 2015·4 votes·1,330 views

I dont get it how this op item still exists

31 Comments

Unironic SJWJan 26, 20154 votes

"The typical game lasts ~33 minutes and sees ~11,000 gold per player - or 3 major 3,300 gold items, 1000 in boots, and a remaining ~1,000 in consumables, starting items, and the bank."

that's the thing that people who bitch about adcs in general refuse to admit - they are failing to take decisive leads before the ADC gets big about 35 minutes into the game. That's on THEM.

"i'm a tank and the hypercarry with 6 items killed me wtf rito"

why did you let the hypercarry get to 6 items other than "you're not doing enough"

ApulonJan 26, 20152 votes

Early game is too important compared to other fazes of the game. So 1 mistake can mean game over. Isnt a game with the potential of back and forward more satisfying than a 1 way stompathon?

QuantumLightJan 26, 20151 votes

this^^ i almost never win lane as adc, but i almost allways win games cause im good at coming back (take advantage of stupid mistakes, capitalize on dragons, arrive "late" to team fights and clean up :P, farm everywhere, ect)

my blue ez is prime example, go 0-4 in lane, get item 3042 , suddenly im the most dangerous person on our team. happens literally every game. (some exageration)

League is the best just because of how there is almost never a difinitive end to the game. they could backdoor you or win an important baron fight.

BlynxJan 26, 20154 votes

If ADC's couldn't kill tanks then we wouldn't have a fucking game.

In other words, stop fucking complaining.

Cleaver on the other hand...

balbraakselJan 26, 20153 votes

You can't infinitely counter everything. An item to counter LW, then an item counter to that item, then an item counter to that item, that's just absolute insanity. :p

Drunk RummateJan 26, 20152 votes

pop on a thornmail and watch as they kill themselves along with you.

ApulonJan 26, 20151 votes

IF so Thornmail needs buff. 100% damage return for x seconds active

Drunk RummateJan 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

IF so Thornmail needs buff. 100% damage return for x seconds active

Maybe. Or just a nerf to bloodthirster. Thornmail is still super effective in game modes that don't have bloodthirster (like ARAM) because sanguine and botrk do not come close to outhealing the damage.

Armor is really effective against AD until last whisper is built which gives you a huge window of opportunity (especially vs ADCs who typically build it 4th after their BT), and even then it doesn't become completely useless. There's a reason people don't do all AD compositions, if you've seen the results of an entire team stacking armor it's really sad how one sided the fights go.

The thing to consider though, is that AD is supposed to be the lategame counter to tanks. Without a sustained damage ADC all tanks would be entirely unkillable because a mage isn't going to dedicate all their cooldowns and mana to bursting someone with 3k+ health and 150 MR. As a tank your job should generally be to peel for your carry or harass the enemy mages, since they can't effectively return damage on you without wasting resources.

ApulonJan 26, 20151 votes

I get it but it has got to a point where it is obscene. Instead of dying in 6 seconds how about 10 - 15. You still take damage so that you are not immortal but when you die as fast as any other squishy champ its makes all your game pointless. Armor hp mr get pointles. As a tank you end up doing your combo and dying. ADC should always be afraid of teamfights. Late game they can 1 v 3 in some cases.

Drunk RummateJan 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I get it but it has got to a point where it is obscene. Instead of dying in 6 seconds how about 10 - 15. You still take damage so that you are not immortal but when you die as fast as any other squishy champ its makes all your game pointless. Armor hp mr get pointles. As a tank you end up doing your combo and dying. ADC should always be afraid of teamfights. Late game they can 1 v 3 in some cases.

I think you might be surprised at how much damage you are soaking as a tank relative to the rest of your team. Keep in mind that your ADC will die in 2-3 autos while you're surviving through at least 10 or more depending on how much armor and health you've picked up.

You're actually tanking a lot of damage with that 3.5k life and 300 armor, it's just that fights happen extremely quickly. If you're dying before the rest of your team in a fight then it likely means you're winning the fight, assuming your team isn't super behind or they aren't also focusing the 3.5k life tank. Because if their ADC puts 15 autos into you and your ADC puts 15 autos into the enemy mage and jungler, thats 2 kills to their 1 kill.

67chromeJan 26, 20152 votes

What counters Last Whisperer

Early game.

Making any ground early directly hurts how much of an impact Last Whisper can offer.

The only reason to rush Last Whisper as a first major item is you're playing Dominion in season 2 vs. a team built entirely of tanky DPS characters. So, never. Otherwise, it's horrifically cost inefficient and a very poor first major item.

Alternatively - things like Chain Vest, Giant's Belt, Sunfire Cape, and Thornmail will allow you to pretty much AFK any champion that would ever want Last Whisper. Use champions that want to rush Sunfire Cape to respectable effectiveness in the early game and you can acquire enough of a monatary advantage Last Whisper simply can't make up the difference you edged out early on.

The typical game lasts ~33 minutes and sees ~11,000 gold per player - or 3 major 3,300 gold items, 1000 in boots, and a remaining ~1,000 in consumables, starting items, and the bank. As Last Whisper is typically a 3rd major item, and offers 0 armor penetration until the entire item is completed, it's entirely possible to win a game before it can do anything.

Considering most %Ar Pen champions tend to be late-game champions, and most tanks and bruisers are more mid-game champions, it also stands to reason you can actually make all the game-winning plays and even win the game before Last Whisper can become a problem.

Early game advantages counter Last Whisper.

Kuroi86Jan 26, 20152 votes

item 3143 Health to counter penetration and armor to counter AD.

deadlychuckJan 26, 20151 votes

and item 3153 alone counters health

Kuroi86Jan 26, 20152 votes

item 3110 Booya.

deadlychuckJan 27, 20151 votes

but then invested all of that gold into an item which gives you no health, and depending on your champion might not even benefit from the mana, so you are again weak to item 3035

Also something to note is that armor is uesless without a health pool to back it up

Kuroi86Jan 27, 20152 votes

So they build item 3153 and I build item 3110 Then they build item 3035 and I build item 3143 And just for kicks, when they build item 3006 I can build item 3047 and give them a big middle finger.

deadlychuckJan 29, 20151 votes

Good call, but no don't die to the Fizz in from mid lane while that's going on

Kuroi86Jan 29, 20152 votes

Hopefully I'm dealing with a decent mid lane that will ping that he is Mia so I can either apply pressure or high tail it to my turret before Fizz even gets to my lane. All the while I should hope mid is going to either roam themselves to the other lane or put some good damage on the turret to make him pay for roaming. It's tit for tat. There are good strategies to use like roaming, and there are counters to use against someone that does roam.

With all that said, I will admit, I think defenses could be more cost efficient, I think that is the biggest issue right now. I've looked at the numbers, armor is efficient, just not cost efficient, health is efficient, I just don't feel it is as cost efficient as it should be. But that's just me. I'd also love to have Runic Bulwark back. I'd love a % bonus health item. I'd love a % damage reduction item. I'm not saying any of them would be balanced, but I love playing tanks and bruisers and they would be hella fun even if overpowered.

deadlychuckJan 29, 20151 votes

here is the thing, most champions now only deal 1 damage type, and they are very effective at dealing that damage. There are only 2 items after item 3512 that give both resistances. So unless someone gets massively behind you are forced to build resistance against them, which might not be effective for the other champions who are damaging you.

But you can't wait to spend your gold and be reactionary based on how the game plays out, because so much of the game is determined by the early game, so if you're just buying items when you recall then you are losing tons of power. So someone might say "well just build components initially then." The issue with that is, because with how itemization is designed in league, the higher teir items are more efficient, so someone who rushes one item will have a massive advantage over someone who buys tons of smaller items, even if they spent as much gold and it was effective against the match up in question.

Kuroi86Jan 30, 20152 votes

You're right to a degree, though mixed damage does have a counter in and of itself. Stacking health. Similarly to true damage, you can only do so much with mixed damage. There is no such thing as a hybrid pen item, and only a couple of hybrid damage items.
Also the list of champions that can deal mixed damage isn't huge, so it's not often a factor that is run into.

Though yes, you did hit on a major issue with tanks, having to build resistances against multiple sources, meanwhile damage dealers tend to build around a single source. Hence why I've always thought items like Runic Bulward, a % bonus health item or a % damage reduction item would be nice, even if they would technically be broken.

BeersteinJan 26, 20152 votes

{quoted}

and alone counters health

item 3153 is a whole different can of worms. Honestly I don't think it should have ever been put in the game though.

JustMyBassCannonJan 29, 20152 votes

I'm fine with BotRK existing. I'm not fine with it existing after Riot hard-nerfed pretty much every single defensive option in the game.

Basically, I think defense items need some buffs.

Also I think Flat Penetration is skewing the balance of % Penetration, but that's yet another entirely different can of worms.

BeersteinJan 26, 20152 votes

item 3800 item 3022 item 3083 item 3143 item 3068 item 3116 item 2045 item 3027 item 3084 item 3065 That's right, a freaking Mres item helps counter it, now man up and build some achepee. Oh and yeah that is a freaking ruby sightstone, problem? Well freaking get warding then woman! Wards+HP could it be any more OP?

FooDangJan 26, 20151 votes

item 2010

Duke AnaxJan 26, 20151 votes

item 3047 at least as far as AA are concerned.

ApulonJan 26, 20151 votes

Not strong enough. 4k Hp melts in 4-6 auto attacks due to krit and armor penetration

Duke AnaxJan 26, 20151 votes

I agree not strong enough, but it is still the most effective, cut's LW right in half.

As in LW gets them from 30% damage to 40% or from 20% to 30%. Ninja Tabi gets them back to 35% and 25% respectively.

LilxPaprikaJan 26, 20151 votes

alistar ult does, poppy ult kayle ult, garen w

i like the idea of nerfing last whisper but i think either create more characters like wukong, nasus, xin, kayle who can apply armor shred. or create another item similar to black cleaver.

by the way guys there was a post recently covering this topic : http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/zsEATWgk-i-love-having-400-armor-against-an-all-ad-team

insaiyanbaccaJan 29, 20151 votes

your right there except you left out mao's ult

Nucleophilic atkJan 26, 20151 votes

Have you tried item 1029 ?

BoulderoxJan 29, 20151 votes

crit i still feel is too op in the current stage, mixed with penatration its astronomical. Also because there is nothing on the ap side such as magic crit. as there is no way to counter it or even lower the inevitability of it at lower ranks. Could fix LOTS of nerfs that hit yasuo, create an item that lowers crit chance, making him never hit 100% crit with 3 items.

Having it apply before the double crit chance too...

Tank items are so lack luster now because everyone can burn through it.