Riot, please wake up. If you want the game to last, listen to the players. Roles and queues.

Agonistes··217 votes·4,457 views

(I also posted this on Reddit, but I expect it won't get too much attention, and I hope at least someone will read this and give it a thought)

First off, let me say that I love this game. I've played it for a long time and it means a lot to me. I guess that for that reason I feel very invested in what Riot is doing and how it affects the players as well as the future of this game. The issues at hand are not easy and I understand that there are no simple solutions. We all need to think long and hard on what can be done, and Riot should listen to our suggestions if they don't want this whole thing to spin out of control and drive everything into the ground.

So, I decided to get informed and watch the infamous round table video. I have a few views and ideas and I'd like to share them with the community. I hope you'll care enough to listen to them, even though I'm just a nobody.

Let’s start off with what Scarra said: “It’s awful. A matchmaking server should have a couple key things. So one, it should help me find skilled players around my level. Two, it should be quick, essentially the game should be relatively fast. I don’t want to be waiting in queue for upwards of 50 minutes, that I have done in this current system. And three, I should be able to play what I want to play. If I’m going to switch from solo queue to dynamic queue and they’re going to enforce roles, I should be able to enforce the role that I want to play. And I think that on all three levels, the matchmaking system has failed.”

And all the Riot employee were saying was “The way you framed it was pretty much perfect how the matchmaking works”, then goes off saying something else, a word salad basically confirming what Scarra said, but the conclusion is “You are right”, “It’s not perfect”, “We are looking into it”, “But we won’t actually do anything about it”.

This “round table” is a travesty. It creates an illusion of an open and constructive discussion, despite the fact that before the discussion even begins, Pwyff states flat-out: “We’re not bringing back solo queue”. So what is this then? The three stooges are just sitting there all fidgety and awkward, listening to criticism, taking a beating, with nothing valid or constructive to reply with except “Our data shows” and “We have been bad at communicating” and “We are working on improving the system”, and “The problem is”, and “Our goals are”, and “We kind of missed the ball”, and “Right now, matchmaking quality is legitimately not good”, and “We’re moving forward and addressing problems”, “We acknowledge”, “We can’t talk openly”, “We don’t have that answer yet”, and “I believe” all the while conceding that the system is bad and what they have managed to achieve so far is bad, like admitting that what they’re doing sucks negates the fact that it does indeed suck.

They are making a show of listening to criticism, it’s like they’re saying “Look! We are working together on this issue, we are listening to what the professional players and the community have to say”, even though the bottom line is, they still do what they want to do, and this display is nothing but a smokescreen to legitimize the already predetermined direction which they have opted for.

Unlike gbay, I’m not glad Riot did this, because it’s nothing but a show for the masses, with the implication that the guys who sat at that table are less likely to criticize them now because they feel like their opinion was acknowledged, even though it really wasn’t.

Here are the arguments they listed for dynamic queue:

Lower player harassment. Granted, a good thing, even though some would say not as important as competitive integrity. Also, it may not have as much to do with dynamic cue as with role selection, like they mentioned.

Teamwork now being what ranked is all about, as opposed to individual contribution. Again, not a bad thing per se, except that you are alienating a large percentage of players who cannot participate in that. Everyone can have individual contribution. Not everyone can rely on teamwork to climb, if they don’t have friends to play with or if they want to play with others.

Back to toxicity. They threw in words like engagement and fairness as being huge pro-dynamic factors, but never explained them. What do those two words mean? Wouldn’t you say that the old system was fairer?

“Toxicity” again. It is a buzzword they like to throw around to justify all of their actions it seems. Much like terrorism when used in politics.

Playing with friends being more fun and less angry – sure, assuming you are in a position to do that. If you are not, then you play with a group of people who are not your friends, but can make the experience way worse for you.

Again saying that the experience is way better for 5s, 4s and 3s, completely disregarding solo players.

Scarra is a genius, huge respect for him. His concluding remarks are just as insightful as what he said at the beginning: “The follow-up is going to be super important. You haven’t completely sold me. I’m not convinced. In a month, if what happens is, nothing changes and there’s no response, you guys have a problem.”

Their answer: “What I think we can do is better acknowledge when we’ve got a problem”. God! I just want to punch that guy in the face! What does that solve? What does it prove, except that you are a bunch of spineless, clueless, incompetent kids who go around saying “we’ve messed up”, “we know it sucks”, instead of fixing the issue, which is something a responsible, serious and professional group of people would have done?

Socrates said in his concluding remarks: “There is a hit we took to personal evaluation… But the meaning of ranked in LoL includes team play, and that’s the world we’re in. “ How about you give the players the choice? This shift from ‘personal evaluation’ to ‘teamplay’ makes absolutely no sense, it defeats the whole idea of ranked. It’s a ranked ladder, and everyone gets ranked individually, even if they attained that rank with a group of people. They won’t get ranked together with the people they played with! So, you have a ladder that reflects what looks like someone’s individual achievements, since they are individually ranked, even though the preferred way of getting that rank is through prioritizing teamwork and cooperation with other players!

The main goals of all the changes seem to be: shorter queue times, role selection and matchmaking fairness.

Here are the two solutions I suggest:

When it comes to fairness and dynamic queue, the most important thing is giving players a choice. If you are a solo player, you should have the option to queue up for 1. Only solo queue and 2. Solo queue and dynamic queue (so whichever pops up first is what you get, if your only goal is to find a game faster).

When it comes to role selection, I believe it should be limited to facilitate shorter queue times. I think that the system should first match together 10 similarly skilled players – that should be the first priority. Then the players rank all the roles based on preference from 1-5 (or 1-6 if you count fill). After that, and only after that, all the players should be automatically assigned a role and divided into two teams. When it’s 10 players to choose from, none of them should be forced into his/hers least favorite role. If you haven’t had a chance to play your main role in a couple of games, your priority goes up, so you are guaranteed to get that role. That way, all players should get to play their main role or secondary role quite often, and even though some players wouldn’t get what they wanted, there wouldn’t be as much toxicity as before because it would be the system deciding who plays what, instead of the players fighting over roles.

What does this achieve? Firstly, absolutely shorter queue times. Secondly, better matches, since the system will no longer pair up people from vastly different standings to speed up the long queues; it will instead find similarly-leveled people and put them together much faster. The only trade-off here is role-selection, which will still be available, if in a limited capacity, but still fair and objective.

The end result is absolute success in terms of queue times and matchmaking fairness, with somewhat reduced role selection compared to what we have now, but still way better than the old ranked system. 2.5 out of 3 goals in my opinion is way better than 0 out of 3 goals, which is what we have now.

73 Comments

blacknerdtaku22 votes

I Actually uninstalled a couple of days back (now i just lurk on the boards to watch this shitstorm)

Know what sucks? Not playing a game i LOVED for 3 years. a game i played religiously, but you know what? Im also an adult, i will vote with my buying and playing habbits. Much like i dont support EA, i dont want to support Riot. And it's a shame it came down to this - but the only reason i played when i really thought about it, was the idea that I as a player could get better, and climb my way with my own skill, getting better as an individual and with my teams.

When i discovered how to teamwork, i left bronze immediate;y at the end of last season, wanted to see if i could make gold (or at least high silver) this one.... but not like this.

It doesnt feel the same, it doesnt feel fair, it doesnt feel rewarding.

So now I have moved on. Perhaps temporarily (assuming riot reverts thes horrible changes) or perhaps permantely.

Anyway Im getting into smite now but every game in low level has lvl 30 smurfs or AFKs. It's such a pain trying to start from scratch with these things but i guess that time has to come.

It's a bitter sweet feeling that i wont be playing what i loved anymore.

As for me recommending LoL to anyone, I will explictly tell people not to play this game, and why they should play something like DoTA or Smite.

Kubox20 votes

I disagree with everyone thinking Ranked shouldn't be centered around teamwork. This is a game based around pitting 5 players with different roles vs 5 other players in the same situation.

Assuming 5 players of similar skill, the team that works better together is the one that should win. I don't care how strong someone is individually, this is not boxing.

So I 100% agree with Riot's philosophy of making teamwork a more prime objective than simply individual skill. I don't think they're doing a good job of following their own philosophy however, relying more on the power of "teaming with friend" to carry out that idea.

Maybe if they'd show the premades, at least on your team, this might change. Knowing your bot lane is a duo can be a game-changing factor for the rest of the team : Jungler/Mid can choose to trust their synergy when they gank the bot lane, top lane can be more confident about teleporting bot. Knowing your jungler and botlane are a a premade can make you choose a different top laner, maybe go for something like Malphite who can play safe and support the jungle ganks, possibly cheesing them as soon as he gets 6.

I believe that if Riot wants to keep going with the Premades thing, which I don't particularly mind, they have to let players not part of that premade capitalize on it. Knowing who's the premade in your team from the moment you get in the room can help you plan around them. It's one thing to know you have and ADC Kogmaw and Support Alistar. It's a completely different thing to know that they both chose those champions because they're together and that that Alistar is going to be dedicated to peeling. Knowing how to work around those premades and plan with them is a skill that solo players should develop.

As it currently stands though, while the premade has the advantage of being a premade, the other team members get nothing in return. If Riot wants the players to have the power to queue up as three, the other two should know of it. That way the whole team benefits from the premade, rather than the three guys benefiting from it while the other two are completely clueless about their team's situation.

SupriseBatSex18 votes

In real life, in university you can be paired up with 4 people to do a project.. It's a skill to be able to workout with different people.. And even the riot guy says solo players are having disadvantages of the system..

Hawkefire6 votes

Ranked teams, aka ranked 5v5s. Dynamic que as a system just doesn't work at evaluating skill levels. There are simply to many variables to account for and measure that it just cannot work.

The Whamboozler4 votes

Ranked 5's are for teamwork and high level coordinated strats.

Solo ranked was for individual skill and how well you could overcome the LACK of coordination and work with randoms to win a game.

Dynamic queue tries to much them together and fails. GLORIOUSLY.

Law of John10 votes

I dont think Rito really palys their own game. I mean sure, they may play a few matches here and there to test out patches and such, I mean REALLY play their game. It sounds like they don't want to put effort into a game they make. If thats the case, why the HELL are they still at riot? Shouldn't they move onto games that they would enjoy both making AND playing?

And as for the whole toxicity thing, its a farse. Ive been put witha 4-man que, where If i dont pick the champ THEY want, or am at THEIR level of play (even If I told them im horrible), they will flame me the entire game, set me up to die, steal my kills. Do EVERYTHING they can to get me into trouble, and ask the enemy team to report me for various reasons.

Good job riot. Instead of making a better comunity, you made it 100x worse.

Rozair6 votes

i really think they dont either. i mean look at all the bothced mage reworks. every single mage updated feels awkward to play. and i mean some of them are op but they still feel awkward. like malzahar or swain. malz whole identity changed and ruined him. i cant play him anymore. riot doesnt test anything they just like to say THEY made a change

ModAcademy Kayn2 votes

To be fair, what was Mal'z "Identity" before the rework, because I'd argue he didn't have one. He did lots of things true, but nothing that really said "Prophet of the Void".

Rozair2 votes

Malzahar used his space aids before. Now he uses his minions are primary damage

Onkel Malte2 votes

Before he was a backline mage with higly impactfull spells on big cooldowns. If used correctly he could dominate games just by dominating his lane, and was probably the only ranged 100-0 champion.

He wasn't a very refined mage back then! But now he's an identical mess. He's now a "minionmancer".

Neither a real prophet nor a real typical magical Mage.

MetalGearTeemu1 votes

Malzahars defined identity was as the game's premiere tank busting AP. Even the fattest, greediest Mao could be reduced to ashes by a late game Malz.

Now he has nothing.

Onkel Malte1 votes

Well now he has add glitter upon this SUSTAINED DAMAGE. which is s barely mediocre.. >_>

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

Painting a wall with gold paint doesn't make it any less of a wall. What you listed isn't an identity as much as just stuff he had. Before the update, he was a 100-0 champion, but that very concept is hit and miss. He either bursted down his target before they could respond, or they lived and Malnjust wasted everything on them.

The update has given him a lot more breathing room when it comes to that. He can still 100-0 a champ late game, but if that fails, he has other things to rely on. He only needs to get his space aids off once, before he can refresh it from afar with Q to extend the duration until the target dies to spread it on to others. His silence may have a lesser duation, but it has a lower CD so you can use it more in extended teamfights to disrupt.

He is no longer 100-0 someone or fail at my job, which is an assassin's role, and can now impact a teamfight more than he could originally, which has always been a mage's ideal concept.

Onkel Malte1 votes

You've got your points and i admit that makes him more consitent and valuable in fights. Still he wasn't painted over with gold, he was transformed into something different. There's now an immense difference to his playstyle.

I'm probably just sad because all of my trained mechanics on Malz now are useless on the semi-rework they did on him and that he's not that much of an Anti-Assassin - Assassin :D

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

His playstyle in lane was to constantly shove with Space Aids, and use his Rotation if anyone tried to get near him and in teamfights use your rotation on someone and hoped not to get CC'd. It left not a lot of room for AP or AD champs (unless they bought QSS) other than to not go near him.

On a side note, I too was a Old Malz main, but he really didn't have any mechanics that one needed to learn. Mechanics meaning something like Zed's Shadow, Azir's Soldiers, or Rumble's Overheat. Any "Mechanic" Old Malz had was only his passive, and that didn't count for much unless you were AD Malz. That said, Mal did require effort playing him, but there are no particular mechanic he had to work around for his damage. It was just "Cast all abilities on Enemy".

Maybe you mean something different than Mechanic, so if that is the case, please feel free to explain that to me XD

Onkel Malte1 votes

Well i've got issues with the new delay on his Q - if that counted as a mechanic. And that i at least knew if my target was about to die or not when i ulted or put my AIds on them.

I would never deny your points, you are right of course.

I still liked the old playstyle better and I just can't sympathise with the new voidling spell (and their poorly made spawn effects) and also the really awkward feeling Null-Zone below his Ult target

MrWasjig3 votes

I dont think Rito really palys their own game.

And herein I think lies the issue.

People on the Boards say "Riot shouldn't listen to Boards feedback!", but what those people often fail to realise is, the League of Legends playerbase is probably the single largest live testing team on the planet. A live testing team that has played this game for years upon years, play it every day and some for several hours a day. They know this game, they know it at a player level. So when something's up, Riot needs to pay attention! Because while the vast majority of players may not have the industry experience, qualifications etc they have the hours upon hours of play.

This is not to say Riot needs to take everything said at face value, but if a general consensus or consistent majority seems to crop up they have to look into it and pay attention to what's wrong and what players are annoyed with. They need to take the feedback but with a grain of salt as it were.

Not totally ignore it, not take it at face value. But take it as an indicator that something is up.

Peace.

Very Hard Engage5 votes

its funny, because in the interview they put up a bunch of their new guys and or unseen guys, and not people like meddler or scarizard, the people who actually make changes.

those guys are only there to influence RNG/math/matchmaking, they have no say over whats good for league or not. they were sadly just the fall guys this time around.

Jambajewz4 votes
JediMobius1 votes

If it weren't so obviously hypocritical and/or unintentionally ironic, I would love Little Caesar's for this! Unfortunately, I can neither condone, nor am I personally capable of, eating cheese-covered cardboard and calling it pizza.

But for real, that's hilarious, and that's totally Riot!

Jambajewz1 votes

Oh that was intentional, all of their tv commercials are ridiculous, they heard an outcry from their customers to bring back that pizza and thought "this is an opportunity to make another ridiculous commercial". They have some of the best ads I've seen, I like them even more than the crazy old spice ads.

That bacon wrapped Deep Deep dish was actually pretty good, though I think they've discontinued it again now, the deep deep dish pizzas in general are significantly better than their regular 5 dollar hot and ready carryout pizzas. Their Italian cheese bread is the best cheese bread of any of the major carryout/delivery chains too, not sure how they managed that.

Lirik5 votes

at this point, i don't even want to see solutions anymore ive been enough fed of riot crap, the only thing is gonna make me comeback is soloQ, they come back on theirs mistake and give use a pure soloQ or they just stay on the downhill train.

TankofGod4 votes

First long forum I have read and you make a good point hope this gets a lot of attention [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Rays On Pinion3 votes

I've actually noticed significantly more toxicity in the new queue. My theory is that players no longer have the "I didn't get my role" excuse for losing, so they're quicker to blame teammates. There's a passive aggressive person or highly toxic person in more than half of my games. There's no way to talk them down from being angry or to tell them they aren't being constructive, so I just don't say anything at all. Ever.

JediMobius1 votes

...which is really sad, because this is supposed to be a team game.

MeBuffULongTime2 votes

You made a lot of really good points and I agree wholeheartedly, I hope this gets the attention it deserves. I really don't want to let this game go, but man its getting harder and harder to find the fun in it.

Spoofghoul2 votes

Hmm some good points

heres something i once saw soemone else say about, i forgot his name but its somehwere in the fromus. a solo badge, something which shows you achieved yoru rank through mostly soloplay and that a pretty big thing the rank should mean something

So what riot can do imho is either change the queue or change how ranking works becasue currently the queue and ranking aren't in sync you get an individual rank for getting boosted by your buddies thatsd a very big nono to ranked integrity

So i think being able to achieve recognition for soloplaying will help alot. possibly several differetn badges, one for mostly soloplay 55% and above and onther one for 70% + and one for 90% and above.

something like that would help i think.

perhaps there are better ways, and other options for climbing the ladder, but playing solo ranked should receive recognition period!!

then the second thing i think riot can do is indeed waht you pointed out, some changes to role selection. a 1st role 2th role and a third role to play might also work fine. System shoudl always try to give primary role with secondary as a backup if queue times are too long. the third role would be the final backup but can be allotted only like 1 out of 5 games maximum. This might help with the support issue, as it hink alot of people are willing to support every so many games.but not all the time, an alternative could eb that this 3th slot would be listed as fill for everyone to speed up queue times.

then there is the 4 man and 5 man issue

first, a 5 man should never ever face a solo player second 4 mans just have to go period.

this will fix some important problems firstly no extremes as in 5 man vs solos so matchmaking will never bee that unfair and the removal of 4 mans means soloplayers wont be needed to fill gaps for premades as much as now, as a 4 man always needs 1 solo player. This is not ok.

2 and 3 can always be matched and sometimes tehre will be 2 2 1 which can happen fine thats ok i can live being matched with 2 mans or 3 mans but 4 or 5 is too many.

And matchmaking should balance around mmr gain/loss so you wont gain as much as a 3 man or lose as much as a solo this way there wont have to be big mmr disparities in matching solo's vs premades because those games always end up in stomping flamewars from my experience just bad gameplay and this can be avoided.

adn then i think dynamic queue would be on the right track to becoming somewhat balanced

Jambajewz2 votes

Overlooking your atrocious spelling and grammar, I think you've made a few really good points here. Especially about the need to make 4 man premades disappear, and the need to only pit 5 man premades against other 5 man premades. The recognition for solo queueing is a nice thought but kind of unnecessary, but if they did it they should include something for people that queue premades more than 50% of the time and are consistently queueing with friends that are a few hundred MMR above them, they get an "I'm Boosted" border that they can't get rid of for the entire next season, that would be really satisfying to see. I think they're ok with only having primary and secondary role selection more than 95% of the time, the only people that run into really absurd queue times are Master and Challenger tier players, and they desperately need to fix the system for them, but it doesn't necessarily have to apply to the rest of the ladder since queue times otherwise aren't really unreasonable. The problem with forcing a third role, or placing "fill" automatically and guaranteeing you only get it maybe 1 out of 5 games is that you may be put in a role you're not prepared to play. Most of the time it'll stick you in support, and that's fine, and honestly I think everyone should learn how to support since it is a very playmaking centered role, but asking someone that mains mid and adc to suddenly go top will almost certainly lose them that matchup, and throwing someone who has basically only laned for the last season or more into the jungle will cripple your team and it's not a good idea.

Spoofghoul2 votes

Yea my apologies for the grammar/spelling that always tends to ahppen when i type really fast.

Lol that i am boosted border though, wouldn't that be brilliant.

Also for the random role thing, you can still swap with others in champion select. And the 1 in 5 is a maximum amount this can happen. It should only really look for a fill role if queue times are too long at that moment. Something like 10 minute and longer.

Ive had that happen plenty of times already. Not counting the amounts of dodges because in that case it gets alot longer. The idea behind it is keeping queue times within reason, remember last season you could end up with any of the 5 roles and had to make it work too, now that chance would simply be very very limited and mostly be support.

But i can also see your argument because we also all have seen people getting their worst role in previous seasons which isn't always a pretty sight.

Summonerrr 12 votes

Premades will never be balanceable in this game until they add voice comms for ALL, because coordination is intrinsically advantageous.

This upvote and accompanying gif is for you

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/863/663/c8d.gif

JedenVojak2 votes

{quoted}

...They are making a show of listening to criticism, it’s like they’re saying “Look! We are working together on this issue, we are listening to what the professional players and the community have to say”, even though the bottom line is, they still do what they want to do, and this display is nothing but a smokescreen to legitimize the already predetermined direction which they have opted for...

Yes, I've noticed this trend ever since they started putting out the patch notes videos explaining all of the changes they made each patch. I just really wanted to punch the smug-faced-glasses-guy every time I saw him.

JediMobius1 votes

The problem with American capitalism is that profit is the only real consideration. (Being that profits are measured quarterly, any company will value growth over sustainability.) So, consumer satisfaction and other considerations of viability over the long-term lose to short-term considerations every time. It doesn't matter how well-balanced the game is in lower tiers. The only way out of bronze and silver, rather than actual champion mastery, is to exploit whichever champions have an edge over the rest. The over-powered champions. The lane comp than can overrun almost any other bot duo. You have to lock in top/mid before the other team? Too bad for you, you're about to get countered. Balanced? C'mon, Riot, don't delude yourselves.

Nefas1 votes

Riot isn't a public American company. They don't report anything quarterly.

JediMobius2 votes

Did I say public? No.

Publicly traded or not, that's just how companies in the global economy thrive, same as nations geopolitically. Or haven't you noticed that the economic strength of any nation is measured in GDP?

It doesn't matter whether, say, Fortune magazine pays such companies any mind, the measure of business success has already been firmly set by the ubiquitous corporate model. Any given company either does the stepping, or gets stepped on. Riot may not be incorporated, but to compete in a national and global marketplace utterly dominated by the opportunistic model of the corporation (which is, by US law, literally required to put the interests of their shareholders above all other concerns), any profit-driven company (which obviously includes Riot Games) will naturally adopt the same principles of our profit-driven-capitalist marketplace, which is also the same model of success and business acumen taught to MBA's and the like.

I'm not trying to be rude, but your argument is non-sequitor (or, to simplify for anyone who doesn't like Latin, irrelevant.)

cvIddXsQkO1 votes

{quoted}

Riot** isn't** a public American company. They don't report anything quarterly.

lol a china company can't handle NA fans. get owned rito.

Nefas1 votes

It was meant more as a comment on SEC requirements for public filing for public American companies lol

Nefas1 votes

You started off our argument by decrying American capitalism and quarterly reporting. Privately held companies do not have quarterly reporting that is required by the SEC for public American companies and so do not have the same short termism that is sometimes associated with public American companies in order to drive stock price. Riot is neither public nor American. They are owned by Tencent. They do not report financials. They don't even report user numbers anymore. They don't have public shareholders. They do not have the same short termism because they don't have a stock price. Stock price is the entirety of the argument behind why companies engage in short termism. If we are going to get snippy your argument is the non sequitur since it does not follow that Riot is chasing a short term stock price bump when they don't have a stock price.

I read Latin perfectly well thank you. My very name is a Roman religious term ffs

JediMobius1 votes

The fact is that the modern corporation, which has its roots in American capitalism, has become the global business model. Profits above all else is what drives the majority of businesses around the globe. Economic growth is pursued over sustainability and stability almost every time.

By the way, Riot is an American company, it was founded here, and is still headquartered in LA. Also, Tencent is a media conglomerate which in turn is a subsidiary of a publicly-traded company in South Africa (Naspers). So, you can bet Riot has to report profits to someone, if not the public. How does it follow that the same short-termism simply wouldn't exist just because a company belongs to a media conglomerate? Naspers exists for pretty much one reason, to turn a profit. What, like they're going to purchase equity in a company and then forget about any return on their investment? Get real.

Oh, and congratulations on being able to read Latin, but the clarification was really for any reader who might come across the conversation, not just you.

Nyhver1 votes

I really disliked the video for similar reasons

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