Potential Dr. Mundo Rework after Evelynn

Doug Dimmadom3·May 10, 2017·2 votes·1,139 views

So, I don't really put anything on the boards or read much of what are on the boards. But, with the rework coming sometime in the near future (probably two or three patches away) it seemed necessary to bring up a point. Urgot is going to be a Noxian juggernaut and he may still be augmented with Zaun equipment and he will probably be a real pain to kill. is a Zaun juggernaut that is employed by the Noxian military who's basic appearance and abilities have not changed since league left beta (or so I believe with limited research). It seems like Urgot's thematic space has potential to take up what little space Mundo has and completely replace him functionally in the game.

I am aware that Riot's champion designers are significantly more skilled than I am when it comes to designing and balancing a champion and they may already have a Mundo rework coming in the future anyways. Nevertheless, I came up with some ideas for how to expand upon his mad scientist of Zaun thematic. There are two approaches that I thought could work.

The first idea is that Mundo could retain much of his existing kit but have new items catered specifically to him. He is a scientist like but, he's not about that "Glorious Revolution." His items could allow him to experiment with and inflict pain to his opponents in a more sinister fashion. Mundo could have an item that grants stats like health, health regen, bonus AD based on max health, and actives that let him put down traps that could deal damage but also tie into his sadistic character. This brings me to the second idea.

His passive could be changed to increased health regeneration based on a percent of the damage he takes and deals, or even general damage opposing champions take in his vicinity. Mundo doesn't really come off as a sadistic champion and taking mundo in this direction doesn't seem like it would infringe on the thematic space of any existing champions.

My ideas were not fully developed and I am open to any critique or potential additions to reworking Dr. Mundo. Most people may think that Mundo doesn't need a rework at all and Urgot's rework may not take up Mundo's role in game. My goal is just to elaborate on Mundo's character and possibly make him a more viable and interesting pick in 2017.

Another note, I did get one comment before a rioter/moderator told me my thread should go in the gameplay board not concept board. Thank you for commenting, I guess I won't mention your name (I don't know if it matters) but, their point was that damage scaling with health makes item like gargoyles stone plate over powered because Mundo could still do more damage with his E even with the 60% damage reduction. This definitely makes sense and a possible work around would be to change the scaling on Mundo's E. This leads me into reworking his actual abilities.

My idea is that the masochism name for his E should imply that for a period of time, the damage that Mundo takes is converted into bonus AD. His E could also have a small AD ratio. Also, Mundo's W ability could be more visually terrifying if he lit his body on fire rather than having magical fire orbs float around him. His W also reduces disable timers but this could be changed to instead giving him slow resist and a charge/ knock back ability. While fighters don't need CC, most meta top laners today have gap closers with CC and his q slow doesn't work well against ,, and . Mundo is a mass of muscle that is unfeeling and overpowering. If he's so strong he can push a champion off of him at least a short distance and revel in the damage he has inflicted and received.

11 Comments

k wìxMay 14, 20172 votes

I like the thematic behind giving him an item that scales in unique ways - that's a fantastic idea, and while your balance changes are AMAZING from a thematic perspective... I don't really think they solve his design flaws. In my opinion.. his design flaws are survivability and damage vs control. He provides a little of both, but not enough to make him a threat. I feel he needs more of one or the other.

1.) You need to find a way to make it so he doesn't just get wrecked by the 'Grievous Wounds' debuff. This keeps him out of so many types of matchups. I'd suggest making it so his ult significantly reduces the impact of Grievous Wounds, so he's just not straight countered by the effect.

2.) I think his cleaver should apply a small 'exhaust' debuff on whoever it hits. like..5-10% reduced damage dealt. So whoever he hits with a cleaver will deal a BIT less damage. This gives him some peeling/cc potential, and it works in a way thats thematically appropriate. It also makes him a better duelist. He's offering way more to the team.

3.) I'd love to see him be able to convert mana to some other stat, This would open up a lot of unique possibilities for items.

Doug Dimmadom3May 15, 20172 votes

The conversion of mana on items to a stat he could use would be awesome. I don't know if it would be done exclusively for Mundo, though. But, he is a scientist, maybe before he became the purple hulk he developed a way to convert mana into another stat. It would be a pretty cool passive or even an exclusive Mundo item passive.

The grievous wounds debuff does hamper Mundo's ult a lot. My guess would be that changing the ult entirely would be the easiest way to get rid of the problem. However, shields are not affected by grievous wounds and if Mundo's ult gave him a shield that lasted a period of time before converting the shield into health (kinda like Tahm Kench E passive) then he could get around the debuff. But, that would have to be a humongous shield or use the same gray health concept.

Another idea for his ult is Mundo could receive something new like red health proportional to 70-90% of the damage he receives. While Mundo has red health, his movement and attack speed are increased, his slow resist is increased, and his attack damage is increased. When the ult time ends, remaining red health is converted into health at a reduced amount (like 50-60%). Grievous wounds would still work on the heal at the end of his ult but, his damage potential would be a lot higher and his survivability would be better, especially if his Q applied a small exhaust like you suggested.

k wìxMay 15, 20171 votes

The Red Health idea is golden. Absolutely perfect from a balance/thematic perspective. This makes his ult infinitely more useful because you get him out of the 'I need to wait until I'm almost dead to ult' trap. that ALONE goes a long way to stopping the wounds debuff. You also start targeting his usefulness with a damage amp - The enemy doesn't want to target him, because it just makes him stronger. **This could really be an epic way to turn Mundo into an initiator. **

I hope we see something like that. Doesn't another champion have something like this already?

Doug Dimmadom3May 17, 20172 votes

So, Olaf , , and TahmKench all have something similar to the red health idea. I've already mentioned Kench's E for the conversion of gray health into actual health. Olaf gets increased healing from all sources on his W depending on his missing health and Volibear's W does more damage based on the health he is missing. There could be other champions that work similarly but, I don't know if they are based around an ultimate ability.

k wìxMay 17, 20171 votes

It's the Mundo rework we deserve, but probably not the one we will get :(

Doug Dimmadom3May 17, 20171 votes

Yeah it seems like Mundo will not get reworked, at least not soon. Rek-sai and Kindred are also stated to get a rework. With six champions currently revealed to being reworked and another new champion likely to be in development, Mundo might have to wait a long time for any kind of change.

ErockandrollMay 15, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=k wìx,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ds8buRcE,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-05-14T21:43:59.448+0000)

I like the thematic behind giving him an item that scales in unique ways - that's a fantastic idea, and while your balance changes are AMAZING from a thematic perspective... I don't really think they solve his design flaws. In my opinion.. his design flaws are survivability and damage vs control. He provides a little of both, but not enough to make him a threat. I feel he needs more of one or the other.

1.) You need to find a way to make it so he doesn't just get wrecked by the 'Grievous Wounds' debuff. This keeps him out of so many types of matchups. I'd suggest making it so his ult significantly reduces the impact of Grievous Wounds, so he's just not straight countered by the effect.

2.) I think his cleaver should apply a small 'exhaust' debuff on whoever it hits. like..5-10% reduced damage dealt. So whoever he hits with a cleaver will deal a BIT less damage. This gives him some peeling/cc potential, and it works in a way thats thematically appropriate. It also makes him a better duelist. He's offering way more to the team.

3.) I'd love to see him be able to convert mana to some other stat, This would open up a lot of unique possibilities for items.

Your first point assumes the prevalence of Grevious wounds in the first place. (Has some merit considering you can get it with 800 gold) But if you try to counter that, he's going to be that much harder to itemize against if he gets ahead.

With your second point, I think they classify Mundo as a Juggernaut. Likely they will take the matter in the opposite direction, and just give him better damage up front. Really, the goal of such an update should to distinguish him from other Juggernauts.

Third point, Itemization should be more of an after thought. Just randomly giving a champ mana scaling stat's would be particularly challenging, especially on someone who doesn't even use mana for their abilities.

The thing with Mundo is that nothing particularly screams Full VGU. No one seem to be mentioning actually chaining his abilities in a way that would require new Art Assets. (Except for the items idea) So it would be more like a mini update that could be done with the Balance team. But if they did a full rework, they would most likely change his kit up way more significantly.

k wìxMay 15, 20171 votes

I agree that in a 'normal league' game - you are really not going to see a lot of Grevious wounds, but in a world where Mundo was a high pick or ban priority, he's easily countered by the item in a way almost NO champion is - this really works to keep him out of high level ranked play in a huge way. That being said, I concede that it makes him harder to fight. Negating the effects of Grevious wounds is a mistake, I think, simply reducing the effect in a small way would be enough.

I'd be okay with more damage upfront, but i still think something needs to change, the Current incarnation of mundo doesn't compete.

on point 3 - I concede it would be hard to do, and probably more of an afterthought at best, but as a dude who's played a crap-ton of Mundo, it really opens up some unique build possibilities for him. He's already extremely limited on what items he can buy. It's almost criminal how many options would be good if not for a random mana stat thrown in.

Yea, ultimately they may not change him - And if you look at the latest 'tank' patch, holy moly, almost every single item is money for Mundo - so maybe he's more viable then I think currently. I doubt we'll be seeing him in high level play anytime soon, even with good items.

Doug Dimmadom3May 17, 20172 votes

Your final point does make a lot of sense (All of your points make sense, really). There is no reason to change much of his interactions and his W and Q. But, with the mini Rammus and Heimerdinger reworks, it doesn't seem too ridiculous to think that Mundo could also get a mini rework of some kind, at least for his ultimate, passive, and E.

The point of the discussion was to high light a potential clash of thematic space with Urgot when he gets a full rework. While Mundo is visually unique, he suffers both from being countered by a lot of meta top laners and having a linear play style. With the direction of the design for modern top laners, the power creep is significant and Mundo doesnt fill the juggernaut role at least compared on a damage output scale with Darius , Garen , Mordekaiser , and even Skarner .

XxxLumberJackxxXMay 10, 20171 votes

Only mundo Q and W could stay. E is garbage and R is... not good with GW the way it is.

Doug Dimmadom3May 14, 20171 votes

Keeping his Q and W makes sense but, given the way Riot reworks champions, I imagine that the Q and W would get minor tweaks. His ult needs the most work.