So I was playing an All-for-One and we had Ezreal. Decided to go AP because why not. Anyway, i"m playing, and I get my Ludens. Now the item says on the next SPELLHIT, that the item will do its damage. Now here is the interesting part. When I would hit with my Q, Ludens would not go off. You can try it out, but it's the truth. Ludens will not proc off of Ezreal Q. Is this a bug, or is this intended? Anyone got a good answer?
OperationDEEZ117 votesQ is coded as an autoattack, it applies on hit effects, not spell effects. Working as intended.
MonsterMasher1 votesThen that is just backa**wards. It is a skillshot and does not rely on your auto-attack to work.
Here is a counter-arugment, GP.
Does Ludens proc off of GP Q? If so, then this definition that RIOT is using is not consistent across characters. The reason being that they make a clear distinction with GP that his passive must be applied with a auto attack, but if his Q is coded as an auto-attack, as you say like Ezreals is, then it should apply his passive since GP's Q also applies on hit effects and therefore is considered an auto-attack.
Photos of Ghosts1 votesHis passive is not any on-hit effect. It's limited to his regular autos for balance reason. But Botrk or Shiv or Sheen are on-hits - all applied by Parrley.
MonsterMasher1 votesThen that is even worse, because there is no consistency across definitions of the characters spells, attacks, and how they interact with items.
Guy Fox Teemo1 votesThey have to make special exceptions for certain abilites, it even blatantly states that his SWORD, ignites the target, in his ability. Not his Parrrley
OperationDEEZ11 votesCalm the fuck down, that's just how it is. Don't shoot the messenger, jackass.
MonsterMasher2 votesNot shooting the messenger, pointing out that your argument does not hold water.
Sona Ping1 votes"It doesn't work that way." And it doesn't.
Holds water like a thermos.
OperationDEEZ11 votesYou asked why his Q does not proc Ludens, I gave you the answer. There's nothing to debate about it.
Guy Fox Teemo4 votesIt doesn't proc on GP's Q
MonsterMasher1 votesOk, well thank you for clarfying that. Still though, the argument stands that GP's Q is exactly like ezreals all purposes intended, and since it does not apply his passive, it cannot be an auto-attack.
Guy Fox Teemo3 votesGangplank's SWORD periodically becomes ignited, causing his next basic attack to burn his target
Please look up the facts before making statements.
Sightless661 votesGangplank's passive specifically states that his next "melee attack" applies his passive. It makes no specific mention of basic attacks. GP's Q not applying his passive is irrelevant to its status as a basic attack.
MonsterMasher1 votesYou sir have bad info from RIOT themselves. In game, his passive clearly states his next basic attack. On the LOL website, it does not give more information then what you stated. So RIOT needs to update that text for GP so that it is consistent with what they have on their site and what is stated in game when you are actually reading the passive's text.
Sightless663 votesNo, I didn't look at the website. I looked in game. I'm looking at it in game right now. "Melee attack". That's the exact text. "Gangplank's next melee attack ignites the target, dealing..." That's exactly what it says. It even says, in green text, "Parrrley does not activate Trial by Fire". This is made explicitly clear.
MonsterMasher1 votesI see what the issue is now. I will have to play with GP soon to double check, but information between RIOT site and Lol Wiki are not consistent.
Sightless662 votesThe League Wiki does not actually have the exact text of abilities. It attempts to explain the mechanic, not restate the text. Don't use it as a source of what the in-game text for abilities is. I don't use the League website for champion information, so I can't say anything about that.
I guarantee you that ingame, it explicitly states that Parrrley can not activate Trial by Fire. Nice green text at the bottom of the tooltip.
MonsterMasher1 votesOK so nowhere in the item description does it say spelldamage which is why I think it should proc off of his Q regardless of how it is coded. If it is the case that it is based on damage and not ability, then Ludens should say off of Spelldamage and not spellhit.
What about Poppy's Q? Does Ludens work with Poppy Q?
If it does, what is the difference between Poppy Q and Ezreal Q?
Chuck Charles2 votesOK so nowhere in the item description does it say spelldamage which is why I think it should proc off of his Q regardless of how it is coded. If it is the case that it is based on damage and not ability, then Ludens should say off of Spelldamage and not spellhit.
What about Poppy's Q? Does Ludens work with Poppy Q?
If it does, what is the difference between Poppy Q and Ezreal Q?
Unique: Gains charges upon moving or casting. At 100 charges, the next instance of ability damage you deal will expend all charges to deal 100 (+ 10% AP) bonus magic damage to the first enemy hit and summon up to 3 lesser bolts that target nearby enemies, prioritizing enemies damaged by the ability and champions over minions.
MonsterMasher1 votesIN the game it says on the next SPELL HIT.
http://gameinfo.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/items/
FInd ludens yourself and tell me that you are correct.
Illâoi Evê Siôn4 votesChampion abilities are not all spells. Would you rather have Ezreal's Q not apply on-hit effects (and therefor Spellblade)? You can only have one or the other.
Luden's does work with Poppy's Q, but that is because she is such an old champion. Back in the day auto-attack modifiers translated the attack into a spell. Riot has since abandoned this design philosophy and will likely remove it from Poppy's kit when she gets reworked (eventually). However, if they attempt to change it now, it might cause more harm than good as it could cause bugs, be a nerf to Poppy, etc. By the way, Jax's W is the same.
MonsterMasher1 votesI would argue that his Q is a spell (especially since it is a skillshot) and in addition can apply on hit effects.
Illâoi Evê Siôn3 votesAnd I would argue that that is not healthy.
For something to apply on hit effects it must be a basic attack.
If something is both spell and attack it means it both applies Life Steal and Spellvamp, both applies spell effects and on hit effects, both can be dodged by Jax's dodge and can't be dodged, both can't hit under blind and can hit under blind.
You see the problems this arises?
I know Riot will someday release spells that apply on hit effects, because they love bending rules and trying out "new" things, but right now, Ezreal is fine as is.
MonsterMasher1 votesLook at my post to Operation above.
Here is a counter-arugment, GP.
Does Ludens proc off of GP Q? If so, then this definition that RIOT is using is not consistent across characters. The reason being that they make a clear distinction with GP that his passive must be applied with a auto attack, but if his Q is coded as an auto-attack, as you say like Ezreals is, then it should apply his passive since GP's Q also applies on hit effects and therefore is considered an auto-attack.
Abyssphere2 votesLook at my post to Operation above.
Here is a counter-arugment, GP.
Does Ludens proc off of GP Q? If so, then this definition that RIOT is using is not consistent across characters. The reason being that they make a clear distinction with GP that his passive must be applied with a basic-auto attack, but if his Q is coded as an auto-attack, as you say like Ezreals is, then it should apply his passive since GP's Q also applies on hit effects and therefore is considered an auto-attack.
Have you ever actually seen Luden's proc on a GP Q? Because it's not a very strong counter-argument if you don't actually have proof that it works like that.
Eve's E behaves exactly the same as Ez's Q, so there's more than one ability that behaves like that.
MonsterMasher2 votesMy point is not strictly that Ludens works with GP, What I was getting at was that saying ezreal's Q is considered an auto-attack is purely wrong since GP has the same thing with his Q but it does not apply his passive which is based on an auto-attack.
So saying that Ezreal's Q is an autoattack is false.
MonsterMasher1 votesIf Ezreal's Q is not an auto-attack, and it isn't a spell then what the hell is it?
JustMyBassCannon1 votesLook at my post to Operation above.
Here is a counter-arugment, GP.
Does Ludens proc off of GP Q?
No.
No it does not.
Statikk Shiv procs on GP's Q, not Luden's Echo.
This is because Gangplank's Q applies on-hit effects, thus is treated as an attack instead of a spell.
As for your whole argument about his passive proc, that's specifically coded with a melee attack. Parrrley is either a special case or not coded as a melee attack.
Sightless662 votesDoes Ludens proc off of GP Q?
No, because it is considered a basic attack.
if his Q is coded as an auto-attack, as you say like Ezreals is, then it should apply his passive since GP's Q also applies on hit effects and therefore is considered an auto-attack.
That would be correct if GP's Q was an on-hit effect, but it's not. The text of the ability specifically says on the next "melee attack". That's not an on-hit effect. It's not being applied off of basic attacks. It is specifically being applied off of melee attacks only.
More importantly, it says "Parrrley does not activate Trial by Fire"
The actual concept applied is that GP's Q is specifically not allowed to proc his passive, and this is just their way of making that clear. It can't be compared to item interactions because it's an interaction between two abilities on a champion's kit. Item interactions have to be consistent, and they are. Intrakit mechanics don't have to be consistent with other similar mechanics because they are champion-specific.
MonsterMasher1 votesYou say: For something to apply on hit effects it must be a basic attack.
I say this is false because of GP's passive being applied via his basic auto-attack and not through his Q (even though there was an argument made somewhere in this thread that stated his sword becomes ignited, and IT applies the effect, and that his gun cannot do so because of that minor flavor text before the passive saying "causing his next basic attack to burn his target" which is dumb by itself).
Illâoi Evê Siôn2 votesThese are exceptions to the rule that are specifically annotated by Riot. They cannot challenge the rule for that reason.
Sometimes, these exceptions must be made for the sake of the game's balance and health (and sometimes because Riot does not have enough time or resources to make a workaround).
In any other case, there are consistent rules the game follows. If you are not familiar with these rules, please familiarize yourself with them and the reasons for them in the league of legends wiki site.
Googling some things also brings up results - statements and explanations by Riot.
In this case, Ezreal's Q and Gangplank's Q both follow the rules as they should.
It is Gangplank's passive - not his Q - that is the exception.
MonsterMasher1 votesYou sir get my upvote. I understand that these are the cases, and these are the reasons why the things are the way they are. If I were a person learning to play this game though, this would be frustrating since there is no clear way of know how your spells and items in certain niche situations will work together, Ezreal's Q and Ludens in this case being the example.
I thank you good patron of the internet.
Lugg1 votesEz's Q does PHYSICAL damage only. It takes magic damage to proc Ludens.
JustMyBassCannon2 votesThat's wrong. If you were to take Luden's Echo on, say, Pantheon, his Q and E could proc Luden's despite being physical damage.
The problem is that Ezreal's Q applies on-attack effects instead of on-spell effects. It's treated as a basic attack despite being a spell. So it would proc Shiv instead of Luden's.
MonsterMasher1 votesWhich I believe that it should do both since it applies on hit effects in addition to being a spell.
JustMyBassCannon2 votesYes, let's screw over the system, where spell effects are balanced for casters and attack effects are balanced for attackers, because someone wants a champion to activate both with the same effect. God forbid that we actually have to separate the two because combining the effects could break the system.
MonsterMasher1 votesIm not saying to break the system, what I want is a consistent set of definitions and rules to play by, so that when I buy an item that does damage based on a spell, and I use a spell, then I want the extra damage to be done by the item.
JustMyBassCannon2 votesHave you ever played a Trading Card game of any sort?
Really, in any game, the rules are always "rules of thumb." Unless something overrides a rule, you follow the rules as normal. But TCGs do this the most frequently. They'll have a rule like this: "You can only summon creatures during your main phase." Then, they'll have a card that breaks that rule, stating, "This creature may be summoned at any time," or "If X happens, immediately summon this creature."
This is one of those rule of thumb cases. A damaging effect can be an attack, a spell, or an on-hit effect if it's applied by an attack or a spell. Since Ezreal's Q is the initial source of damage, it has to be either an attack or a spell, not both. The ability is thus coded as an attack rather than a spell.
MonsterMasher1 votes[deleted]
JustMyBassCannon1 votesEzreal's Q states that it applies on-hit effects.
Now, as spells automatically apply spell effects such as Rylai's, Liandry's and Spell Vamp, one would have to either believe that it is a redundant statement, or that it is referring to on-hit effects for attacks, such as Mallet, BotRK and Lifesteal.
And Luden's states that it applies on a spell.
I understand that these rules aren't publicly stated, and I'm all for having the game clarified, but it's not that hard to deduce.
MonsterMasher1 votesI agree with your comments. The one issue is that there is no where that it states that these abilities like Ezreal's Q have these "special" effects. If the abilities do have these effects, then I would like for them to be pointed out as they are with TCGs and not just when they are convenient or necessary.
That being said, I would argue that the umbrella term is "attack" and then from there go to ability or non ability, and then to physical or magical or true, and so on and so forth until the damage map tree is completed.. Currently the "damage tree system" seems to wonky at best.
Caytheles1 votesWe dont want another AP Smite Ezreal dude... thats why it doesnt proc aswell.
MonsterMasher1 votesIt clearly states in the item description this.
Luden's EchoCost: 3000 (900) +100 Ability Power +10% Movement Speed
UNIQUE Passive: Gain charges upon moving or casting. At 100 charges, **the next spell hit **expends all charges to deal 100 (+10% AP) bonus magic damage to up to 4 targets on hit.
This is directly from the LOL website.
Here is the link. Find Ludens if you do not believe me.
Illâoi Evê Siôn1 votesYeah. SPELL hit. Ezreal's Q is a champion ability, not a spell. Not all champion abilities are spells. Hextech Gunblade's active is a spell. Pantheon Q is a spell. Nasus Q is not a spell. Ezreal Q is not a spell.
Photos of Ghosts1 votesNO. No. No.
No.
ಠ_ಠ
NO. NO. NO.
It takes a spell, because IT'S A SPELL EFFECT. Ez's Q is NOT a spell, it's an autoattack.
MonsterMasher1 votesI am arguing that It is not an auto-attack. GP is the example I use GP above to show how if something does apply-on-hit-effects, than it is not necessarily an auto-attack.