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@Meddler Can Skarner get the Kindred treatment?

Phant0mHawk··108 votes·22,006 views
http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/4/41/Skarner_Poro.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20150214164243

Currently on live Kindred and her enemy get 8 seconds to run after taking a camp marked by Wolf.

This is due to the fact that the jungler's position is very important information, since it promotes multiple people to converge on a single region or suggest its safe/dangerous without direct vision to take a neutral objective.

In Skarner's case the spire-taking instant-feedback mechanic is always of larger advantage to the opponent, because of why you take the spire.

The enemy will take the spire as they leave since they don't need the buff (it's insignificant to them) and instead use it as a ward to know in the future where Skarner is.

Skarner on the other hand has two bad choices:

  1. Take the spire and tell the whole enemy team to converge on your area while you're taking the camp over the next 6 seconds
  2. Not take the spire and spend 15 seconds clearing the camp.

I propose giving him some form of Kindred treatment, preferably something that gives Skarner himself more time than his opponent since he is going to stay to take the camp, while the enemy is almost always already moving away from the area.

It's fine for the neutral spires to give instant feedback since it gives both sides the same info, but not the jungle ones.

Sincerely, Phant0mHawk Skarner

85 Comments

CaptLagg43 votes

To be honest they should remove the spires altogether. They hold so much of his power budget and do not assist you in taking any objective whatsoever. Do they help with taking towers? Nope Do they help taking inhibitors? Nope Do they help taking the nexus? Nope

taking those objectives is the actual purpose of the game.

Remove this bullshit mechanic that is weighing him down.

Wizardavar22 votes

Actually, the placement of skarners spire makes him a excellent neutral objective champions. His power comes from melting down dragon/baron, or the champions that attempt them. Does Dead Enemies help take turrets? Yes. Baron? Yes. Dragon? Uh, more killing, repeat.

World Ender5 votes

Yes, but why is it gated behind a terrible passive? Why can't they just remove the spires, make his general combat stats a little better, and take some power away from other places in his kit? Skarner sees very little play, even though his kit has some extremely useful elements. I mean, honestly, to make full use of his kit, he has to be in one of his zones. It becomes a nightmare when you have to fight away from your spires, since so much of his kit is balanced around his strength when he's in them.

TehNACHO2 votes

Because then the only unique aspect of his kit is really just his Ultimate. Everything else about him is replicated in other champs but often better, so unless you want to instead try the balance hurdle that is accidentally overbuffing his super generic basic abilities or not putting enough power into them and turning Skarner into a stun bot, he needs to do at least something else.

Riot chose spires in this case for that something else. You can argue that wasn't the best move, whatever. The point is, it's something he needs.

SpecterVonBaren4 votes

OR, or or or... revert this trash rework and give him back his crystal venom passive so he's once again the sticky inescapable monster he's supposed to be.

TehNACHO2 votes

What a great idea. Outside of his ultimate, the main basis for individualizing Skarner's basic abilities will only be outperformed by...basically anyone with a stun.

The at max 1 second stun to 6 second "cooldown" on that passive is comparable to virtually every other hard cc in the game, and seeing that Skarner's crystal venom passive is extremely similar to Braum's Passive, and dare I say inferior to Braum's iteration of that ability, to pretend that Skarner can build his niche around that is...very hopeful, to put it one way.

Not to mention his Crystal Venom passive still exists in his current iteration and, just like its previous iteration, is extremely easy to forget that it's even there. Or that since it's usually at such a small duration, its primary purpose is to put a stutter in the enemy's movement, in which case a Passive like Ekko's is waaaay better for that particular job while Ekko's kit offers way more utility and combat potential than current or old Skarner offers.

You seem to have a pretty stern idea of what Skarner is and what he should be, and that's fine and all but you need to review him from the context of the rest of the game. We already have a lot of sticky and inescapable monsters who do the job faaaaaar better than Skarner, meaning that if you try to balance Skarner around that, you hit the "accidentally overbuffing his super generic basic abilities or not putting enough power into them and turning Skarner into a stun bot" problem I pointed out previously.

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

You forget that his previous kit had the attack speed and movespeed steroids in the crystals on his Q and his base movespeed was higher. So long as he could get to someone then he could use his Q to speed himself up after them to keep hitting Qs while attacking faster and while dealing that damage he'd stack up his passive for a burst of damage and a stun. Yes, the stun wasn't very long but it was long enough for a successful gank with the help of the laner and in teamfights it meant he could stack up the passive on multiple people even while just focussing on one person and be able to stun several of them. Yes he wouldn't get a stun of 2 seconds like say, Brand, but he could get a maximum of 5 seconds of stun spread out over an entire enemy team.

The passive was not the lynch pin of his kit but was perfect for accentuating the rest of it.

And the current version is easy to forget because its attached to his slow E skillshot. It's made it so whether he succeeds in a gank or not depends entirely on hitting one short ranged slow moving skillshot and then being able to gap close fast enough to auto his target. The reliability of being able to get your stun off with using your Q was far superior to his current E which has made his ganks like they were with his first rework... but worse since he's so slow now.

And please don't bring Ekko up as an example of good design choices. He's just Lee Sin 2.0, does too much of everything for no drawback.

Regardless of whether others can do a similar job to Skarner, the sticky inescapable bug WAS supposed to be his niche and his kit was designed around it. If they really wanted to go with the rock crutches idea then they needed to completely rework his kit on a Sion level instead of this half assed rework he got.

LostFr0st1 votes

I too wish he had kept the mini phage on his Q

Phant0mHawk4 votes

Despite how negative some people may feel about the some of skarner rework and although his q is now a sheen slave and his passive is not the most desirable of passives; He did gain a few tools from his rework which are arguably more desirable then his old passive.

Skarner now has a more durable shield, so he can retain his movement speed a little longer, the ability to gank mid lane more effectively, and most importantly, movement speed while using his ultimate.

One of the problems with pre-rework Skarner is, his ultimate was not threatening enough to warrant respect. One of the most valuable things Skarner got from his rework was having his ultimate interact with the rest of his kit. Before, you would use your ultimate on someone and they would not move much at all, or in an assassin's case dash to safety after you use your ultimate, while you take half your health worth of damage for being in the middle of 5 people. Now, you can fracture (e) the assassin, bring him to your team with your ultimate, and immediately stun them so they can be focused down (using it to make picks) or ultimate whoever is diving your carries (peel in team-fights).

I'm not saying that his new passive is perfect. It definitely needs another pass; but I do think Skarner's rework made him a little more versatile in what he already did.

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

You say he gained a more durable shield so that it lasts longer so he can get to someone easier but he also got a huge nerf to his base movespeed so that he's only fast within the zone of his spires.

And I disagree with your idea that his ult is better now, just the ability to drag someone into your team is extremely powerful and the off chance that you don't need to use his E stun just to get to someone so you can ult them isn't worth everything else that happened. And an assassin that got hit by his ult would immediately use their mobility move to jump out before he could use his E stun, only if the assassin had already gap closed to delete a squishy would your scenario have the most likely chance of happening.

The only thing I agree with on being better is that his shield is stronger but it came with nerfs in other areas that make it so it doesn't matter much because they reduced his base damage for more scaling so you're encouraged to build damage.

LostFr0st2 votes

I think OP means you apply the E mark, then ult while they are infected by the venom, and then auto to stun before the mark runs out. They have no real time to dash.

SpecterVonBaren5 votes

No. No no no no no no it doesn't.

The goal of the rework, to make him a neutral objective controller is impossible to do without completely changing his kit, because his kit is not designed for controlling objectives, nothing in his kit rewards him for, or encourages him to fight for objectives aside from getting a stat boost from his crystals. His Q is a short range spammable damage ability, the kind of thing someone who gets up in an enemy’s face would use to give out long term dps, his w is a speed boost for catching people that also has a shield to help him survive being in the middle of an enemy team or taking the damage from someone trying to kite him, his E is meant to allow him or a teammate to close the gap and pounce on someone and his ult is a kidnapping tool. None of these abilities are things that a neutral objective controller would want in their kit.

Know who DOES have a kit for objective control? Nunu. Nunu has two abilities for controlling things in the jungle, he has his consume for dealing large true damage to monsters to secure them for himself or his team and he has his ult which is great in the jungle and river because of the confined aspect of those places and that fact that he can catch people by surprise with his ult by hiding behind a corner or in a bush to channel for a lot of damage before the enemy realizes it or when they have no choice but to fight in it.

But do you know what Skarner’s kit IS good for? What he is SUPPOSED to do? Being a champion that catches someone and then sticks to them and doesn’t let up until they’re destroyed by himself or his team. His previous kit was perfect for this kind of gameplay, with the crystal venom passive, w to move in quick, E to slow someone down, and then Q Q Q to stun them and finish them off or Ult and drag them away into your team.

Nothing about Skarner's ACTUAL gameplay is of any benefit to taking neutral objectives other than that being where his attack speed and movespeed steroids are. You could put his rocks in front of the each of the base entrances of both teams and it doesn't suddenly make him a good champion for sieging, it just arbitrarily shackles him to only be effective there.

PoE00dpWDk2 votes

Now you give a solid explanation to why Skarner is suppose to be a sticky chase down champ and it may seem like historically that was what Skarner was but you fail to take RIOT logic into account. When we apply Riot logic to Skarner's kit we can clearly see with out a shadow of a doubt that this champion is an objective controller shackled by this strange concept of stickiness and ganking. The current version of Skarner may be somewhat at odds but one day Riot will finally give us all not the sticky chaser we want, but the objective contorller we need. Until that glorious of days come I will be excitedly waiting to log back in and bask in the glory that is Skarner.

Dengeden3 votes

Implying you need help taking towers all of a sudden...

LostFr0st18 votes

TFW you tell your team not to take a spire as Skarner but they do it anyway, ruining your plan.

RiotRiotRepertoir16 votes

Hi. No promises, but Meddler and I have discussed this and are talking about testing some changes out.

Hero King Ezreal1 votes

{quoted}

Hi. No promises, but Meddler and I have discussed this and are talking about testing some changes out.

awesome you guys are great!

Phant0mHawk2 votes

Thank you on both fronts, for both taking the time to read and discuss this post and for reworking Skarner last fall.
The E into Ult auto mechanic is really satisfying to use against assassins :D

Please pay special attention to Skarner once the buff timers go live. Enemies will have more notice of where Skarner will be in 60 seconds so "take his spire and we can ambush him" and "he'll be here or I take his buff" will happen more often.

What I really wanted to address is the uneven information split and time cost on the spire-taking mechanic, not necessarily change how much info you get. Right now the enemy can clear my camps safely but I can't do the same safely in their jungle unless I don't use my passive.

The global should be delayed when taken by Skarner always, unless the medium sized spire radius (the small spire taking availability radius) is warded. You should need to ward spires the same as you need to ward Eve's camps to know where Skarner is immediately.

I want to make sure the spires aren't a liability to me or my team via map pressure/information on my whereabouts while making sure there is counterplay to Skarner's spires.

RiotRiotRepertoir6 votes

We were talking about whether them having a minimap icon and being seen in FoW for enemy is really necessary at all. We'll have to test this and stuff like it out.

Shahamut1 votes

If we are going to keep the rocks, why not give him a different passive and just make his ult a trundle riven mash up?

Skarner creates a Crystal spire at target location, empowering him while he remains within a set distance of it. While the spire remains, (10 seconds? 15?) Skarner gains a 1 time use of impale. Etc etc

SuperLuigiLXIV3 votes

{quoted}

Hi. No promises, but Meddler and I have discussed this and are talking about testing some changes out.

I wish you guys would remove the spires and give Skarner an Azir-style passive where he can convert a ward into a crystal. That way you could give him a bigger "high" moment, his passive would be more based on decision-making, and he would have options with it.

Let him turn a ward into a permanent crystal with 5HP and extended vision range, plus true sight if he converts a pink ward. And within the zone of control, give him whatever bonuses you feel are appropriate, if they're the current ones or better ones. Give it an appropriate cooldown.

You guys want him to be a zone control jungler, right? So give him the ability to control a zone in more than just six places.

Celeste Benal2 votes

Thats.... an interesting suggestion. I'd be fine with his pet rocks if they weren't static and immovable.

SuperLuigiLXIV1 votes

i proposed it back when the Juggernaut changes were first announced. Then, as now, I was ignored :C

Zok721 votes

That's actually an incredibly cool suggestion (and also pushes the natural jungler + warding synergy)!

Nightmist Dark1 votes

all that Skarner needs is reworking his Q to a flip, like Volibear and Singed, and make him into a real hard CC machine. he will lose his classic Q spam but will be in a better position, IMO. aside from that we will be going back to the drawing board. I've never picked Skarner for damage, i picked him so that enemies don't run away, ever.

Phoenix Kotori 9 votes

+1

Oleandervine5 votes

I agree that the spire mechanic needs to be removed entirely from Skarner. It's an absolute gimmick that essentially chains him to prescribed locations and the whole concept isn't even unique - it's just Trundle's E, but much shittier since Skarner can't control where or when to place it like Trundle can. So, yet again, Skarner needs another rework to get him in line and scrape off this gimmick they've shackled him with.

SpecterVonBaren3 votes

Better option. Get rid of the fucking rocks.

The Yetii Rider2 votes

What would an enemy gain from knowing Skarner was in their jungle 8 seconds later? He has a huge boost of MS from it, he could already be ganking a land by then.

The vision aspect is more beneficial to the opponent because the opponent doesn't gain combat stats from it.

SoMNia8 votes

Gain? No, the point is to remove the unfair advantage Skarner's enemies have from knowing where he is without having vision the moment he takes a spire.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

{quoted}

Gain? No, the point is to remove the unfair advantage Skarner's enemies have from knowing where he is without having vision the moment he takes a spire.

As I said, there's no benefit for the enemy then. Riot doesn't want counterjungling to be strong, so they give the newest power counterjungler a clear weakness to keep him from doing it too much.

KhaZixTheScyther1 votes

false, its the opposite have you seen the new changes to allow both teams to see when blue and red buff spawn?

The Yetii Rider1 votes

{quoted}

false, its the opposite have you seen the new changes to allow both teams to see when blue and red buff spawn?

That's not for counterjungling. It's to create the opportunity for teams to group up and fight over buffs after 20-30 minutes. The OP is talking about Skarner when he's weaker, in the laning phase.

KhaZixTheScyther1 votes

youre telling me, that being able to see when the enemies buffs spawn (this starts after the second spawning of buffs mind you) doesnt promote counterjungling? and thats the OP of this post was talking about lane phase? naw hes talking about the game as a whole, my older bro who mained skarner back in s4 could easily tell you about how that affects the game and effects the way that he has to jungle skarner now.

My Waifu Vanilla2 votes

The buff timers are indeed not going to promote REAL counterjungling, but for forcing fights later in the game (after like 18 minutes when mid lane wants their free deathcap esque passive with blue buff). Currently Skarner has to avoid taking unnecessary spires because they say "hey look I'm here come and kill me OR run away". The timers show when the buff is coming up, but says nothing about the position or any champions around it or even give vision of the buff itself.

Skarnwr on the other hand simply cannot touch the river spires or even the enemy jungle spires without wasting time (during the laning phase) because it literally says "run away I'm ganking top/bot!" Hell even Kindred has the delay on when the enemy team can see her take marks. Imagine if their mark didn't have the delay. You see their jungler top and their Krugs are marked (you are red side) so you go take your "free" mark since jungler is literally on the other side of the map. But wait, bot and mid were both looking at the map and saw that swirl instantly go away so you get pincered and die despite taking your passive stack at THE best time.

Skarner is not "rewarded" enough for taking spires since they hurt him way more than they ever help him before 20 minutes. It is the epitome of a "noobtrap" to touch spires outside of taking dragon WITH teammates since revealing your position to everyone on the map is worse than you maybe catching scuttle faster or ganking.....slower since you have to stop to channel.

SoMNia4 votes

{quoted}

As I said, there's no benefit for the enemy then.

That's the point. That's the goal. It's not a criticism of this idea. It's not an unwanted side-effect, but actually the intended effect of such a change. The enemy should not be given free up-to-date information on Skarner's location like that. It even signals opportunities for enemies to push on the other side of the map when he's clearing his own jungle. It's an unreasonable weakness, and it should be mitigated.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

{quoted}

That's the point. That's the goal. It's not a criticism of this idea. It's not an unwanted side-effect, but actually the intended effect of such a change. The enemy should not be given free up-to-date information on Skarner's location like that. It even signals opportunities for enemies to push on the other side of the map when he's clearing his own jungle. It's an unreasonable weakness, and it should be mitigated.

Why? In exchange for this 'unreasonable weakness', he gets a crap-ton of attack and move speed for his clears, as well as when he's taking baron and dragon. It's a fine weakness. It gives Skarner's opponent ways to capitalize on his movements across the map.

SoMNia3 votes

Because other champions have similar strengths in terms of clears and objective control while avoiding this unprecedented weakness, that leaves him disadvantaged in a way that directly relates to fundamental principles and mechanics (i.e. maintaining vision control and responding to your enemy's positioning). Because the drastic reduction in availability of wards made additional map info that much more valuable, thus increasing the weakness. Because capitalizing on his movements across the map should require you to put effort into knowing where he is, like every other champion in the game. Because other champions with minigames that put info on the map (like Kindred and Illaoi) have received considerations that prevent them from giving their position away to enemies who don't have vision, and it's only fair to give him the same treatment.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

Kindred and Illaoi don't gain nearly the same benefit from their mini games that Skarner does.

If Skarner gets caught out in his shrine, his shrine benefits him to help him either escape or turn it into a kill.

Jungle vision is IMPROVING this patch with red and blue timers being given out for free. Riot wants there to be more scuffles in the jungle, not less.

Skarner has those crystals to kill champions, not monsters. Removing the key aspect that helps opponents fight Skarner on their turns makes the crystals all about clear speeds, and that's not interactive.

Celeste Benal1 votes

Yeah, holy crap, no. Illaoi will (not can, but will) 1v5 if she ults the enemy team with tentacles already around her.

Phant0mHawk2 votes

Skarner's spires do give him massive attack speed for taking neutral objectives, but often hiding your jungle position is almost always more desirable than having more attack speed for jungle clears.

Looking at Kindred mark again (lamb's mark this time since she chooses "marks champs"): it can be used to create jungle pressure across the map, making it seem like you want to kill them, so they have to play passive.

Skarner's spires have the reverse effect. If you retake a spire or take an enemy spire across the map, the enemy can play aggressive since they know it gives instant feedback on Skarner's location. The wise and more undesirable choice to make as Skarner is to not take the spires and spend an additional 6 seconds clearing the camp.

This is to prevent multiple people collapsing on you before you even finish clearing the camp and also does not give away your position. I believe the spires were originally intend to make skarner a better counter jungler which they do not do safely enough to warrant using.

Another important side note is, you do not get indirect vision from spires until they are fully taken. This means that the enemy can finish clearing your camps and recall while taking the spire to base losing no time at all, while you have to waste 2 seconds not clearing the camp before you can start counter jungling.

Marshbouy1 votes

can you link the post/patch notes that brings up the kindred change? thanks

DorkunedAuras9 votes

It's not a change, it's always been this way. Whenever a Wolf marked jungle camp gets cleared by someone, the enemy team doesn't know get notified about the clear until 8 seconds after it's cleared. That's from day 1

Marshbouy6 votes

Oooohhhhh I get it. So people can't hunt down and kill skarner easily? Okay that makes sense

Cowgirl Ed1 votes

Can someone explain me what does this mean? "Currently on live Kindred and her enemy get 8 seconds to run after taking a camp marked by Wolf."

Tormentula4 votes

Say rift scuttler is your mark, you go to kill it, that mark still shows on the map for 8 seconds. Basically the enemy jungler doesn't know you took that mark for 8 seconds because it still shows on the map, you'll be ganking a lane or doing a camp before there's a reaction.

With skarner, the instant he captures a crystal the entire team knows he's there.

Dataless1 votes

And here I thought you meant, "Make Skarner oppressive and have him crowd out every other jungler not named Graves in competitive play" when you say "Kindred treatment."

kappa

SpecterVonBaren3 votes

I still don't get this argument seeing how I have yet to see a Kindred win a game in two months (Not in competitive). I don't understand how she does so well in competitive when she's so bad in the current meta of massive burst damage.

Dataless1 votes

{quoted}

I still don't get this argument seeing how I have yet to see a Kindred win a game in two months (Not in competitive). I don't understand how she does so well in competitive when she's so bad in the current meta of massive burst damage.

Well then consider yourself lucky, you're only slightly higher ranked than myself but Kindred is literally pick/ban in every SINGLE game I have played for the last two months, if not longer. They snowball early incredibly hard, are immune to massive burst via the ultimate unless you CC lock them flawlessly, and can abuse the Maw/Steraks combo to become a high damage tanky monstrosity.

In competitive play Kindred tower dives on the level of Alistar, breaks assassinations with their ultimate, and can objective control better than almost any other jungler with good stack management. They're a really frustrating champion.

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

Maybe they've just all been picking her in a comp that already has a bunch of squishies in it.

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