What's the point of assassin runes/ items nerfs if you also assign 'compensation buffs'?

Forces of Void·Aug 28, 2018·56 votes·17,401 views

70 Comments

Frosted TipsAug 28, 201826 votes

The compensation buffs mainly go to the champions that need the rune/item but don't abuse it super hard like the ones that cause the problem. Not saying all of the compensation buffs are justified just that some are.

RequiemsfireAug 29, 201814 votes

I mean Wukong got absolutely gutted when they removed base damage and AD scaling from his Q, and then nerfed all the runes that he ever used, he's not a strong laning champion, he's not a strong lategame champion, all he really has going for him is some cheese, and that somewhat decent midgame power spike which isn't that amazing to say the least.

Madsin25Aug 29, 20184 votes

It's a product of how the game is right now. All about damage.

He can either go in and one shot and actually be useful to the team, or if he can't do that he ends up dying and he is useless.

Riot can lower the damage in the game and actually have skill expression instead of one shot or be one shot.

RequiemsfireAug 29, 20184 votes

{quoted}

It's a product of how the game is right now. All about damage.

He can either go in and one shot and actually be useful to the team, or if he can't do that he ends up dying and he is useless.

Riot can lower the damage in the game and actually have skill expression instead of one shot or be one shot.

No, it's a product of a person's decision, the state has nothing to do with the fact that Wukong's nerfs in general were so over the top,

Madsin25Aug 29, 20185 votes

Wukong cant function in the game if he is not one shotting.

Sorry your champions kit can't function in this meta without being an abomination.

RequiemsfireAug 29, 20188 votes

{quoted}

Wukong cant function in the game if he is not one shotting.

Sorry your champions kit can't function in this meta without being an abomination.

First off, I do not play Wukong but I do main toplane bruisers like Kled, like aatrox, like Gangplank.

Second, there's more too it than just one shottting someone, because ya know against actually good opponents that's actually harder to do, never the less I do agree it is harder to react to Wukong when he's ahead. Honestly even at this period where he's supposedly strong, there are so many better champions to be playing than Wukong.

The fact that the only compensation they give for gutting wukong is a small attack speed buff is downright insulting considering there are so many other ways they can balance the champion.

RiotRiot MapleNectarAug 29, 201816 votes

Just want to chime in that while the data is still early and hot coming off the presses, that small as buff netted him ~4% in the jungle (accounting for variance of +/- .5% either way as we get more sample size). One of the intents of giving him the AS is slowly moving him into the direction of being able to build more of a fighter and less of a dive bomb assassin. For him to be viable for the past while, he's needed to be able to 100-0 whatever target he picked via a relatively low counterplay combo. Pulling the upfront burst damage, but giving him the ability to deal more sustained damage hopefully sets him up for better builds, less binary viability, and fewer strictly feast or famine games.

Moody PAug 30, 20182 votes

How come you (as Riot's official statement on the matter) consider Volibear binary, then? He is feast/famine, sure, but he isn't binary since his damage pattern is both sustained and conditional and he has plenty of outplay potential even if you ignore subtleties in laning/jungling interactions and take him at face value.

SpideraxeAug 30, 20183 votes

Feast or famine is the same as being binary in the context of League

Moody PAug 30, 20183 votes

maybe if you're an assassin who has no contribution beyond damage. Feast/famine in Volibear's case just changes what role he's going to take on for his team between being a damage threat/raid boss (feast) or being a bodyguard/suicide pick maker (famine). He has plenty of variable gameplay already.

The only reason he constitutes a VGU is because Riot wants to make him more marketable to the brainlet population who only considers something healthy if it's obnoxiously flashy and has 2 or 3 "skillshots." Because throwing shit in a straight line copy pasted into 80 kits is fun and innovative.

SpideraxeAug 30, 20183 votes

I think you have your own definition of what feast or famine is that doesn't align with Riot's definition. That's why you don't understand why riot thinks he's binary and why they want to rework him

RavenMagusAug 30, 20183 votes

huh?

Volibear is one of the most binary champs out there.

On Volibear's side, you either run right at them, or you don't. There's nothing else Volibear does. Once he gets there he's just a big giant ball of massive stats.

On the enemy's side, you are either a champion capable of kiting Volibear (in which case he straight up loses), or you die.

Moody PAug 30, 20182 votes

"I've never played Volibear but let me tell you what your champion is like."

RavenMagusAug 30, 20183 votes

I have played Volibear a few times and faced him many times. Sorry, but he isn't a very complicated champion.

I guess next you'll tell me that Udyr - the quintessential walking ball of passive stats - isn't binary at all.

Moody PAug 30, 20184 votes

Sorry, but he isn't a very complicated champion.

Yeah, we better fuck that up, look at how healthy the "complicated" champions are. Azir Ryze overwhelming success, right? Or these "good" reworks like Galio and Irelia or Aatrox, all of which are still yet to exist in a healthy state months/years later.

Multifaceted, do-it-all champions are consistently the worst designs in the game. I don't know how many times we need to go through the same song and dance before the general population figures it out.

SuperLuigiLXIVAug 30, 20182 votes

Champions with too much versatility, who don't pay for that versatility elsewhere, are very badly designed, yes.

But so are champions that revolve around doing just one thing, because either they have the numbers to succeed at that one thing, in which case they're oppressive, or they lack the numbers to do that one thing, and they're worthless. Voli is among that number.

Does he have the stats to catch and kill you? Guess what, you're fucked.

Does he not have the stats to catch and kill you? Guess what, he's fucked.

Moody PAug 30, 20182 votes

Dramatic oversimplification. The reality is that Volibear can flex into a good handful of play styles and builds based in how his games are going and what his matchup is. This already sets him good few steps above almost any recent champion who buys the same fewitems every game in the same order.

SuperLuigiLXIVAug 31, 20181 votes

Well, since I already explained that the ability to buy different items is not the same thing as versatility of playstyle, twice, while giving an example of ACTUAL versatility of playstyle it's clear you're not going to listen.

You like the champion? Fine. But just because you like something doesn't mean you should deny a truth about it.

Since I don't care to argue with someone who's simply convinced that they are correct, I'm done here. Good luck.

BjørnetjenestenAug 31, 20181 votes

Why cant he? His E and Q are excellent peeling and disengaging tools, thats a completely different playstyle where you bodyguard the carry instead of engaging, Building with items like item 3401 item 3109 item 3050 item 3190 he makes a fine support.

Or he can build item 3078 item 3748 and be an excellent bruiser, able to splitpush and 1v1 pretty much any non-duelist, since he has decent dmg into the midgame and an execute.

OR as you say he can build full tank and item 3800 and be the engaging team fight tank.

His kit might be simple but it has alot of different elements that can be used in different ways for different purposes.

chipndip1Aug 31, 20181 votes

You SURE you play Voli...building Wit's and Liandry's? That sounds like you don't play Voli.

Moody PAug 31, 20182 votes

You can hold the L then, buddy.

chipndip1Aug 31, 20181 votes

I think Aatrox is doing alright balance-wise, actually.

Irelia's also doing "ok" atm.

Moody PAug 31, 20181 votes

Aatrox is already on Riot's list for more nerfs. Doesn't seem so alright to me.

Sharpest glassesAug 30, 20181 votes

One of the intents of giving him the AS is slowly moving him into the direction of being able to build more of a fighter and less of a dive bomb assassin.

hum... High elo players still build him full AD (for good reason)

For him to be viable for the past while, he's needed to be able to 100-0 whatever target he picked via a relatively low counterplay combo.

the issue is his kit. You can't force a bruiser build/gameplay on a champ cc less (unless his ult).

Pulling the upfront burst damage, but giving him the ability to deal more sustained damage hopefully sets him up for better builds, less binary viability, and fewer strictly feast or famine games.

Still binary. aa is still stat checky AF (same as adc), but for melee its even worse, not really less feast or famine.

RequiemsfireAug 30, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dfY8NPsZ,comment-id=000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-29T23:42:19.354+0000)

Just want to chime in that while the data is still early and hot coming off the presses, that small as buff netted him ~4% in the jungle (accounting for variance of +/- .5% either way as we get more sample size). One of the intents of giving him the AS is slowly moving him into the direction of being able to build more of a fighter and less of a dive bomb assassin. For him to be viable for the past while, he's needed to be able to 100-0 whatever target he picked via a relatively low counterplay combo. Pulling the upfront burst damage, but giving him the ability to deal more sustained damage hopefully sets him up for better builds, less binary viability, and fewer strictly feast or famine games.

The patch given to him, isn't going to change how he plays, all it really does is make his jungling slightly better as opposed to enhancing the duelist aspect of Wukong, its not like Riot had no idea for years to come that this is his playstyle, there's so many different ways they could handle this, Like why not just give him an actual passive, or whatever. Reduce cooldown with his Q , maybe make his clone do something?

My bet, what's gonna happen, Wukong will just end up being forgotten by the balance team once again and fade into obscurity.

painkillsAug 30, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dfY8NPsZ,comment-id=000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-29T23:42:19.354+0000)

Just want to chime in that while the data is still early and hot coming off the presses, that small as buff netted him ~4% in the jungle (accounting for variance of +/- .5% either way as we get more sample size). One of the intents of giving him the AS is slowly moving him into the direction of being able to build more of a fighter and less of a dive bomb assassin. For him to be viable for the past while, he's needed to be able to 100-0 whatever target he picked via a relatively low counterplay combo. Pulling the upfront burst damage, but giving him the ability to deal more sustained damage hopefully sets him up for better builds, less binary viability, and fewer strictly feast or famine games.

The issue is, getting an extra 0.1 attacks per second does not mean that Wukong becomes a bruiser. His scaling (max Q, E, R) is super high and base damages too low, mana costs are too high (40 mana on a 10 damage auto reset...), cooldowns too long, and defenses too low.

If Wukong had that attackspeed but also some sustain or better defenses or some form of CC / Utility, he could stay in a fight and deal damage / Disrupt and not die immediately.

As it is, he will either survive for a while and deal negligible damage and be ignorable, or build some damage and still die quickly, having no chance to use the extra 8% attack speed.

I love that you are trying to remove dive bomb and increase power elsewhere, but just attackspeed doesnt cut it.

VeraskaAug 30, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dfY8NPsZ,comment-id=000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-29T23:42:19.354+0000)

Just want to chime in that while the data is still early and hot coming off the presses, that small as buff netted him ~4% in the jungle (accounting for variance of +/- .5% either way as we get more sample size). One of the intents of giving him the AS is slowly moving him into the direction of being able to build more of a fighter and less of a dive bomb assassin. For him to be viable for the past while, he's needed to be able to 100-0 whatever target he picked via a relatively low counterplay combo. Pulling the upfront burst damage, but giving him the ability to deal more sustained damage hopefully sets him up for better builds, less binary viability, and fewer strictly feast or famine games.

How does lowering the cooldown on decoy sound? Or give wukong players a way to get more uses out of decoy in a fight

As a person who played both bruiser and full ad wukong i feel kinda optionless when late game i rely on decoy to get close enough to the backline and if they dont die i absolutely do

I dont like building tank and i prefer big damage and movement as opposed to durability (this makes sense for a monkey to me) so im cool with slowing down his combo or putting more counter play space into it, i would like to not be a sitting paperduck after the knock up ends in return tho like just a way to get wukongs defensive power up maybe knocking up enemies shaves seconds off w cd?

I hope when riot does do an innevitable vgu they move wukong towards a light fighter, ad caster role, the current full ad build is old and linear, but a fighter build isnt much better, i think wukong should build full ad and his kit should reflect that in modern league of legends

dunder killAug 29, 20185 votes

Lol dafuq? Are you trolling? Yes he can. He was built bruiser for like 5-6 years lmao

Z3SleeperAug 29, 20181 votes

Forgot about that, that was definitely a much healthier Wukong. He never should have gotten to the state where he is considered a pure Assassin.

Edge of DaybreakAug 29, 20188 votes

Because not every assassin is actually good and when you nerf the guy who is 53% winrate you also nerf the one who is 46%. Can't kneecap the entire class because of a few outliers.

Madsin25Aug 29, 20188 votes

MissFortune Zed Quinn MonkeyKing Shaco Khazix Rengar Talon Nocturne Kayn Graves

Who exactly had a 46% winrate?

Willing to bet they were all over 50%. Graves was probably the only champion doing bad at the time, and you see how he is now.

Edge of DaybreakAug 29, 20181 votes

I was clearly throwing out numbers to make a point. Not really the important part of that post.

Madsin25Aug 29, 20183 votes

It is very important.

You are saying that some of the champs were doing bad when clearly that was not the case.

Edge of DaybreakAug 29, 20181 votes

I did not say they were doing bad I am saying they are not equally strong which is not the same thing. Nerfing them all in at once is definitely going to push a few below the bar. Kayn isn't equal to graves but they are nerfing both. Shaco isn't equal to wukong but they are both being nerfed. Like I said I choose arbitrary numbers.

SmallCheeseCakeAug 29, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Who exactly had a 46% winrate?

Willing to bet they were all over 50%. Graves was probably the only champion doing bad at the time, and you see how he is now.

rengar kha kayn werent over 50

Madsin25Aug 29, 20182 votes

Yea unless you have proof for this I am going to just say bullshit.

There was a reason a bunch of people wanted duskblade deleted from the game.

kargishAug 29, 20181 votes

I was gonna provide proof but that data is gone like the wind now (I think). Can however confirm that Rengar had 49%-50,5% depending on being top/jgl.

Kayn can't be meassured though, his games as Rhaast also contribute to his win rate.

BEK MakadurAug 29, 20182 votes

Some champs are fine with a wr under 50%. Especially the complex ones, as they are hard to learn.

SmallCheeseCakeAug 30, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Yea unless you have proof for this I am going to just say bullshit.

There was a reason a bunch of people wanted duskblade deleted from the game.

Well there's a reason a bunch of people circlejerk on these boards, 99% of people on these boards are not good to listen to and are trash that refuse to play properly. And unless you have proof that those were all over 50% im just going to say bullshit since you said you're willing to bet give some proof they were all over 50.

Sire HippingtonAug 29, 20181 votes

what patch are we talking? Also, only wu, rengar and kayne out of those get a buff, and on the current patch, kayne and wu are below 50(https://euw.op.gg/champion/statistics ), and neyt patch there is a nerf to stromrazor and duskblade aswell, and the buffs they recive are pretty minor.

Moons of JupiterAug 29, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Because not every assassin is actually good and when you nerf the guy who is 53% winrate you also nerf the one who is 46%. Can't kneecap the entire class because of a few outliers.

Although doing so would be much better for the entire gameplay experience overall

Edge of DaybreakAug 29, 20181 votes

No it wouldn't. Nerfing things because you don't like them is a terrible way to approach anything. Think of it like this. imagine if every champion you played was balanced by people who dislike them.

Moons of JupiterAug 29, 20181 votes

{quoted}

No it wouldn't. Nerfing things because you don't like them is a terrible way to approach anything. Think of it like this. imagine if every champion you played was balanced by people who dislike them.

Yes, it would. Assassins are a pretty consistent point of discontent across every multiplayer team-based game where they exist. They always throw class dynamics for a loop. When Riot tried to fix this, they ended up accidentally deleting the assassin identity...because that's what has to be done to make them feel fair to play against.

You just can't balance a class that has it's premise in anti-counterplay, anti-social gameplay patterns.

AnateraAug 29, 20186 votes

They're scared the twelve year olds that main assassins will cry about not being able to suck the fun out of every game they participate in.

Sire HippingtonAug 29, 20185 votes

The nerfs were plenty and most of the champs in qustion weren't overperforming even befor the nerfs, and the buffs are rather small and focused on utillity.

The point was never to nerf assasins, it was to reduce upfront burst, and with less upfront burst, most assasins need some boost to their other tools to not be dumpstered. Not saying all the buffs were needed, but most of them were and the rest won't do that much harm either.

Madsin25Aug 29, 20182 votes

Are we talking about duskblade or something else?

Graves was the only champion that got a utlity buff and it was a faster activating blind.

Everything else was just number boosts across the board.

Sire HippingtonAug 29, 20181 votes

nerfs to their primary runes followed by nerfs to duskblade+stormrazor, and in wukongs case two heavy direct nerfs.

As for you're numbers boosts, it is the numbers on their utillity abillities that gets boosted, not their damage numbers exept for wukong's small AS boost that you won't notice on any of his burst combos.

Blue Moon WolfAug 29, 20185 votes

What champs specifically are you talking about? cause depending on the case they may be needed. For example even if 5 champs are over performing because of runes and 1-2 are just performing at a viable enough level, those nerfs are going to push them below the level needed to stay viable which is why they get buffed.

AhrisAug 29, 20183 votes

I mean if you are going to nerf their burst damage, you need to buff other parts of their kit. This is natural response.

Straight up nerfing every single burst champ in game with the domination tree nerf is unfair to those who used the domination tree.

Infact, adc's MUST lose more damage from their lategame as well as tanks lose most of their base damage as well.

Bruisers shouldnt also be getting damage buffs buff but Riot is giving them. Bruisers would also need a damage nerf.

But then, nerfing them would touch your main so you will cry.

Riot is straight up changing the meta and they say they are "lowering the damage" when in fact they are only nerfing the damage of specific champ and give no compensation to them.

Ahri have yet to receive compensation for domination free nerf.

No matter how much you ask them, they will ignore you. Such stupid company.

Sire HippingtonAug 29, 20183 votes

i agreed with you're post up till this point:

Ahri have yet to receive compensation for domination free nerf.

Why on earth would ahrie need a buff? She's now AFTER THE NERFS still sitting on a **52.57% ** winrate with a **12.1% ** pickrate. If anything, she deserves some more nerfs... (https://euw.op.gg/champion/ahri/statistics/mid )