Let's talk about experience

its moose··37 votes·3,481 views

Hi, I'm Moose. I've been playing since S5 and frequently complain about xp. Let's talk about why.

I will give my perspective as a jungle player and let more experienced laners talk about their POV in the discussion. Currently the meta is heavy gank, the top junglers being Lee, Elise, Kha. Why is this?

Well it started in Patch 7.4 with the introduction of catchup XP : "I’M STILL RELEVANT :: Earning a kill or assist while below your team’s average level now grants bonus experience"

And

When you’re lower level than your opponent.

SUBTLE STUFF :: Bonus experience for kills/assists on higher-level champions has been slightly increased.

Now fundamentally, this seems flawed. Putting yourself as a player behind shouldn't be rewarded, the punishment should be that the player stays behind as they have put themselves there until they find a way back in. Please do correct me if i'm wrong.

What does this mean for the jungle meta though?

It means that junglers can build low economy items (e.g. mobi boots) and spam ganks on lanes without having to worry about pathing at all. This is because their laners will level at the average rate while they slowly put themselves behind, all they have to do is enter a lane for an assist and the XP gap that they created for themselves will be greatly reduced.

Why is this unfair?

Think about the other jungler on the map, planning his route, making sure to counter jungle when appropriate, keeping up with his laners in XP, ganking when necessary. The advantage that he carved for himself is massively reduced once the enemy jungler gets a kill or assist, he could be a total of two levels up but because catchup XP makes that much of a difference the XP gap can close by a full level. How is that fair on the person that has put themselves ahead?

You could make the argument that they are getting ahead in gold, however 1 level is worth almost 1000g in base stats, and the heavy gank junglers are also pressuring enemy laners off gold from their lanes / getting more assists (sometimes). So the gold really is a nonfactor.

FINAL POINT There is meta for a reason, and this is the current meta. However, being inhibited to being able to play 5 champions within the jungle to put up a good fight is too far. If you play a more farm / clear oriented jungler, you're putting yourself at too SEVERE of a disadvantage compared to the top 5.

TLDR: Being behind isn't punishing enough / being ahead isn't quite as rewarding. Meta is too inhibiting of jungle styles / routes

I want jungle to be balanced. Not overtuned. Believe me.

62 Comments

Brain Errör 40417 votes

This is definitely an issue that I have. It also happens in lane: You get first blood, start carving a lead for yourself. Your opponent is 2 lvls down, you're abusing. Their jgler ganks, you die and all of a sudden that laner is out lvling you. Rito, wtf?

DeathBurst1 votes

Gross exaggeration. An opponent doesn't catch up 2 levels from a single death.

Brain Errör 4041 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ia0yWH6sppk&t=3m41s

Watch the video. He dies to a lvl 4 Akali at lvl 6, she hits 5, clears wave, then hits 6 reducing her 2 level gap from one mistake. And, since it's edited, just notice the time he died at: 6:36. He gets back in lane at 7:23 with the lvl 6 Akali and even says, "Now he's out leveling me". Yeah, the system is garbage.

DeathBurst1 votes

Yeah, I watched the video. Rengar is level 6.3, and Akali is level 4.9, approximately, that's not 2 full levels, that's barely one and half. She gets to level 5 with the kill XP and then farm two full waves to get to level 6.

And when he says "Now he's out leveling me"? Well, that's not true. As you can clearly see just after that that he still gets to level 7 when she's still level 6.

Soooo... I rest my case? Gross exaggeration.

CaptainDingo15 votes

a FUCKING men

kurthl33t6 votes

I actually think there's room for MORE catch-up mechanics--I feel like it's still too easy for one side to snowball--but I certainly appreciate this well-reasoned argument against this specific mechanic.

its moose3 votes

That's the point is it not? if one team is far ahead shouldn't they deserve that advantage?

kurthl33t2 votes

An advantage, yes, absolutely. But do they need to roll up three towers and an inhib because we had the gall to lose a single teamfight? That seems a bit much.

I don't think this is the appropriate thread to discuss appropriate catch-up mechanics for this game, but I will say that a) I think that the game is currently skewed too strongly in favor of the side that gets ahead early, and b) I think the OP makes a good case against this particular catch-up mechanic.

Nomad Sol5 votes

What happens when you put a bronze in charge of the jungle rework. Subtly is lost, plants are in.

DeathBurst1 votes

Last I checked, he's Silver, not Bronze, and more importantly, that's not relevant.

Eedat4 votes

Ummmmmmmm spamming ganks will set you very far behind in the jungle. The bonus XP on kill isnt even close to the same as actually farming. This is also assuming every single gank is successful, which it isn't.

AFK farming puts you further ahead as a jungler than spamming ganks unless you're getting a kill almost every time. Spam ganking is trying to get your lanes ahead while putting yourself as the jungler further behind

its moose3 votes

Show me an instance in soloq at a decent rank where the disparity between junglers is more than 2 levels.

its moose3 votes

And I never stated every gank would be successful, infact i stated the opposite. Your point 'Spam ganking is trying to get your lanes ahead while putting yourself as the jungler further behind' is what should be true, however due to catchup xp, its not.

DeathBurst1 votes

It's still true, even despite the catchup XP. And 2 levels is huge.

yisus 1v96 votes

are you kidding elise players have 2-3 camps up for the entirety of the early game because they spam gank. Take 1 camp, gain half a level then continue ganking. You're literally proving the point of what it should be. If you spam gank all game you SHOULD be behind, but you're instead ahead.

Subject 54 votes

I mean another thing Riot supports is:

If you do real well, like let's say you get 2 Kills in a row.

Anivia Holy shit I just got a double kill! Wow- I couldn't be punished for playing my role well! Annie Wow a double kill! Good thing you got that double kill earlier, so that I can claim the extra 150G's!

Or

Zed Wow, I just killed my laner 3 times in a row- then the jungler, then the bottom lane for 9 kills in a row! That's a lot of money! Ahri Wow, I just killed this Zed once and got 500 gold because he was doing good for himself! I'm special! I'm an anime character!

DeathBurst1 votes

Shut-down gold is shared all over the team. The max amount of gold a player can get from even a fully stacked shut-down is 390.

And as for your first case, if someone kills Annie later in the game, they also get 150 extra gold. It doesn't work only one way. Only the "first time" is punished because there is no shutdown to collect yet, and they are getting ahead and should use this lead to get something else, and that's worth much more than 150g when you're already behind.

TEA Nietzsche 4 votes

Absolutely agreed. Catch-up xp in addition to shut-down gold is just an insane combination.

FEEDlNG TIME3 votes

How have you only been playing since s5 and you're this knowledgeable?

its moose13 votes

Knowledge doesn't come with time

An Undead brat4 votes

But experience does and that's what we are talking about!

...wait, that's ingame experience...

Silverjust2 votes

I agree that this gank-meta is bad, but this changes where made, so supports can have a similar lvl as their team. if you remove the catchup mechanic, how would you solve this problem?

LankPants2 votes

It should go back to being more like what it was before, no effect till you're around 2.5 levels down then kicks in hard. None of this 10% bonus for being 1 level down garbage.

Silverjust3 votes

so how would you solve the problem for supports, who fall behind in levels every game for doing their job?

LankPants2 votes

If you're not behind the average level by 2.5 as a support you're not really behind.

Silverjust1 votes

you are not behind compared to an other support, yes but you are behind everyone else, even if you did well

so how would you solve this problem?

Lord Desert2 votes

Dude the catch up is not the problem, the overall amount of exp you get in the jungle is the problem! How come that a jungler is able to be 1 level above the solo laners!? Even the same level as solo laners is already extremely good! (especially at level 6) I remember times where the junglers was always ~1 level behind the solo laners. A gank wasnt an automatic 95% success because you could outplay the enemy sololaner and a level lower jungler. Forget about that if the jungler is the same level OR EVEN 1 LEVEL ABOVE YOU! That is the problem.

Before only farm junglers could keep you with the levels or a successfull ganker! Rigth now its: powerfarm to level 3, gank the living s*** out of someone and be always the same or ahead in levels even if you fail....

its moose3 votes

This is just false, sorry

Dukues2 votes

I didn't even know they made that change since I was taking a break from the game then but holy hell man jungle so annoying right now. I get jungle needed a nerf after last season but now its just frustrating. I feel obligated to gank 24/7 to keep up with enemy jungler as getting ahead in gold right now doesn't seem to matter like it did last season. Lanes snowball out of control if left unchecked and even when junglers get ahead they may not be able to carry like they could last season.

I just really dislike the game right now. Hopefully it's a sign of moving on to new things in life but not going to lie current meta really is helping. After 1 or so games I just don't want to play anymore. I feel obligated to only play a few junglers and any other role is now a put off. Although I don't think that's Riots fault or problem I just don't feel like playing other lanes.

Worst damn part is no one apparently wants to play tanks on my team so I been rocking Gragas jungle. And honestly he is the only champion I enjoy right now so that's more or less why I am playing him. I pretty much always need to go straight tank since no one else apparently gives a damn. But I like the option of being able to build some ap and still be tanky yet do lots of damage. But its like... in season 6 I could play one of those carry/brusier jungles and feel ok but now I don't like playing them because I feel I am too team reliant. I know they still reliable but they can't carry as hard as last season.

Wish Riot would figure out a way to make jungler less strong than in season 6... but not so meta and gank dependent as they are this season. Hell... maybe I will never really enjoy jungling again until it is the strongest role. At least.... while I am in silver that is.

Blåbæret2 votes

Indeed this is an issue. It makes no sense.

6Sfool2 votes

I just wish jungle experience wasn't so wonky. Either you powerfarm or spam ganks just to keep up in levels, while laners only have to be within range of minion deaths. If jungle xp wasn't so dependent on clear speed or ganking power and didn't punish you for roaming so much, the jungle meta wouldn't be so strict.

LankPants2 votes

Definitely agreed, there's far too much EXP in ganks right now and far too little in farm.

I understand that Riot wanted to kill off farm junglers, I have no idea why though. What they created is the most cancerous jungle I've ever seen that's dominated by absurd early pressure junglers.

morris12 votes

Talking about jungle, Riot did this intentionally when they increased the camp respawn timers. Before, a failed gank or even successful ganks in bulk would mean you'd be outmatched by the enemy jungle if he farmed all game*.

* yes I realise good ganks should be rewarded more than afk farming. but until all junglers become good gankers I won't consider it fair to give one a massive advantage over the other

its moose1 votes

But the advantage is currently far in favor of the heavy gank junglers and not a balance between the two?

Lucian Waifu2 votes

Some people complain that Hecarim is scary to see ganking you, but I know when I see a Moose ganking me, it's all over!

Hèntaî 2 votes

It seems to happen in lanes too. You get to be a level and a half ahead of the enemy and when you come back after you kill them or force their back they end up out leveling you.

its moose1 votes

agreed

statelesskiller2 votes

i legit had a lee sin sit in a bush for a solid 2 minutes trying to gank me. i had the bush warded so i kinda just stepped up to make it look like i was overextending to wet his appetite then backed the fuck up instantly so he couldnt do anything

he was level 3. when i saw him a minute later after ganking mid and getting a kill he was level 5. WHY

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

You don't find the game to be snowbally enough yet?

its moose1 votes

?

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

XP catch up is one of the few comeback mechanics in the game right now as apposed to the numerous snowball mechanics in the game that either occur because of the basic way the game works or were deliberately implemented by Riot.

its moose1 votes

What numerous snowball mechanics? First tower gold? Neutral objectives? You mean those things that are there to help you win the game by creating an advantage over your enemies.

If you weren't putting yourself behind in the first place then why would you need to come back, its a skill based game.

Elaborate further on 'snowball mechanics' or dont comment

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

Rift Herald, Dragon buffs, Baron Nashor, First Tower gold. All things that make the winning team win harder.

its moose1 votes

If you are that ahead that you can secure said objectives, don't you deserve to win the game?

SpecterVonBaren2 votes

If your idea of being ahead is "solo drag in the first 6 minutes" or "gangbang bot and push their turret down" then I don't know what to tell you. If you see Baron as just being a "Now I win" button then why don't you ask Riot to just make inhibitor and nexus turrets even weaker and remove Baron altogether?

So you don't think that one person snowballing off of killing their lane opponent and turning that into a won game without any input from the rest of the enemy team is something good? Why should making one mistake result in a nigh unstoppable sequence of events that lead to the enemy team winning is good?

Now you might say I'm blowing this out of proportion but your thread is about how oh so terrible it is that a simple XP catch up, the ONLY anti snowball mechanic we have in the game right now, is unfair and you want to get rid of that when you have all these other advantages that ALREADY give you the kind of game you want, one decided early game by just one mistake or just one person on the enemy team (The jungler) getting one lane fed or taking all the objectives on the map.

Lord Desert1 votes

He is just salty that he cant snowball his laners every single game... XP catch up is good to keep supports relevant and to keep the ever increasing snowballing down a notch. Even if the enemy gets a bit of extra exp they are still BEHIND! Its not like they suddenly are better than you...

UJEVICH 1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Desert,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dXzPhorf,comment-id=00110000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-23T02:33:59.761+0000)

He is just salty that he cant snowball his laners every single game... XP catch up is good to keep supports relevant and to keep the ever increasing snowballing down a notch. Even if the enemy gets a bit of extra exp they are still BEHIND! Its not like they suddenly are better than you...

god shut the fuck up, you barely played the game this season and that wasn't even in ranked AND you don't play jungle, you have no clue what you're talking about it's pissing me off

Lord Desert1 votes

.... I have no clue what I'm talking about? THAN POINT OUT WHAT IS WRONG! I dont care one single bit if I piss someone off. Ether you bring something usefull to the table or you should shut up yourself.... So tell me what was wrong? XP catch up is good for supports? It helps to keep snowballing somewhat in check? Even if you get catch up exp youre still far behind?

Here take a look at this, from the 7.4 Patchnotes:

##Teamwork bonus experience: I'M STILL RELEVANT: Earning a kill or assist while below your team’s average level now grants bonus experience OFFICIALLY BEHIND: Teamwork bonus experience kicks in at just over one full level behind your team’s average, scaling with XP (not level) LET'S NOT GET TOO CRAZY: The bonus scales slightly more aggressively at first, capping at +60% bonus experience at four full levels’ difference


##Underdog bonus experience: SUBTLE STUFF: Bonus experience for kills/assists on higher-level champions has been slightly increased. (At **4 levels’ difference, this adds about 10% more bonus experience) **

Remember botlane consist of 2 guys, who are both underleved in early/midgame.

I may not have played much this season, I may not play jungle very often, BUT I know the numbers. I will point out flaws, false facts and ignored points, if you want to or not. Feel free to correct me anytime I state something wrong! If you can find anything that is.

So do you now have anything usefull to add or not? I'll give you a full day to find something that I cant dismiss. Good luck!

Lord Desert1 votes

Just saying I'm still waiting for an answer....

Mr ßulldops1 votes

I feel like you're over-exaggerating a lot. Look at the bigger picture here. This game is just about teamfighting as it is about laning. If you're playing jungle and your 3 lanes lose, how you going to feel? Probably ff@15 right? This gives the opportunity for a comeback, it doesn't just give you the comeback, you still have to put work in, and the enemy team are going to be way more fed until that. If the enemy team start winning, but they don't capitalise soon enough by snowballing further, they should also be punished, through possibility of the enemy having a comeback. Anyway, this isn't about junglers, it's about maybe 1 or 2 lanes falling behind and 1 person being ahead, providing a chance for the game to go further, since snowballing, as the term suggests, is very very hard to prevent. How many times have you fell behind or the enemy fell behind and just surrendered at 15 or 20 when they COULD have cameback. I'd almost classify that as toxic behaviour in most cases. It's irrating and disheartening when players are spamming /all ff. If you wanna snowball, you still can, you press your lead further. Games would seriously suck if they were just straight wins at 20-25 mins. Teamfights are the core of the gameplay, lets get the feeders at least to 30 mins to enjoy our games more, right? :D

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